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On February 23 2014 23:18 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field. The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue. Yes, Protoss is known for having very weak and fragile late-game armies that can disappear in 2-3 seconds, especially in PvT. We've all seen that happen again and again and again. ROTFL :D
I'm not saying the Protoss deathball is weak. There isn't anyone out there trying to argue that point.
What I'm saying is that in WoL even with Protoss late game being so strong TvP was a pretty balanced match up.
What makes it such a problem these days is with the new options Protoss was given in HoTS, and how powerful they are, without compensation the other way to keep it balanced, after Helbats got nerfed.
That's the reason the match up is a problem. Protoss can keep their late game death ball and still have a balanced match up. It sucks to fight against but it isn't the problem.
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On February 23 2014 23:17 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping. Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping. Maru scanned the main and saw nothing and his three attempts at scouting were actively shut down, clearly something was going on that zest did not want him to see and that should have set off alarm bells in Maru's head making finding out what is happening his number one priority. He did not do that and as a result he was put in an awkward position. You can blame it on balance but Maru's game sense failed him in this match.
yes, let's blame not 100% perfect gamesense on all losses of terran recently. protoss always denies terran scouting. not necessarily because they really need to hide something, but because they can. that way terran has to fear all the options that protoss could possibly be hiding. even with perfect gamesense as you call it it's stil more luck than anything to actually hit that one scan that confirms exactly what protoss is doing, and most of the time it's too alte at that point for terran to really do anything against it except going all in imediately.
again, it all comes down to the fact that protoss almost can do whatever while terran needsto prepare the best they can against everything. it is literally impossible to do that. it's a gambit if you prepared for the right thing. and even if you prepare perfectly protoss still might just roll over you or transition out into a perfectly normal standard game (blink pressure says hi).
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On February 23 2014 23:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I actually really like where the Oracle is right now. I think once the patch goes in and we fix the other problems with the early game the Oracle will have a really nice place as a general purpose map control unit for all 3 match ups.
If it is for map control, then it needs less DPS imo. 1 oracle means 6 marines in each mineral line plus can't move out. I feel that is too much power for 1 unit to have in the early game.
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On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas.
I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it
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Okay... anyway. Please let's not create too much of a balance discussion, so hammers don't crush our faces. There's a thread for this in the dark corners of SC2 General.
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As a Protoss I'd love an oracle nerf, it's so annoying in PvP when your 2 stalkers take 2 years to take it down and they kill 20 probes.
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On February 23 2014 23:22 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:18 scypio wrote:On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field. The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue. Yes, Protoss is known for having very weak and fragile late-game armies that can disappear in 2-3 seconds, especially in PvT. We've all seen that happen again and again and again. ROTFL :D I'm not saying the Protoss deathball is weak. There isn't anyone out there trying to argue that point. What I'm saying is that in WoL even with Protoss late game being so strong TvP was a pretty balanced match up. What makes it such a problem these days is with the new options Protoss was given in HoTS, and how powerful they are, without compensation the other way to keep it balanced, after Helbats got nerfed. That's the reason the match up is a problem. Protoss can keep their late game death ball and still have a balanced match up. It sucks to fight against but it isn't the problem.
In WoL, Terrans usually had a supply lead when the game got to the 160 v 140 supply range. It makes multi prone attacks stronger. But if you want TvP now, the supply is usually even and that is bad news for the T.
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On February 23 2014 23:24 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I actually really like where the Oracle is right now. I think once the patch goes in and we fix the other problems with the early game the Oracle will have a really nice place as a general purpose map control unit for all 3 match ups. If it is for map control, then it needs less DPS imo. 1 oracle means 6 marines in each mineral line plus can't move out. I feel that is too much power for 1 unit to have in the early game.
Its cost justifies its damage IMO especially when you factor in the cost of opening Stargate.
The reason the Oracle is dumb is because the MSC makes using the Oracle completely risk free.
Take the risk free part away and the Oracle is fine, keep it and yea I agree with you. That's why I said once Blizzard fixes the other problems with the early game the Oracle will be good, as it is now it's just another thing Terrans have to worry about on a long laundry list of Protoss options that all require specific answers.
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On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it
Ok, how about the banshee?
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On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee?
The Protoss technology is more advanced; thus they have the equivalent of the Banshee, but it comes with stim.
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On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee?
Not comparable.
Terran needs to build a Starport anyway for Medivacs so it isn't as detrimental to standard builds.
Unless you're going for Phoenix Collosus you don't want anything out of the Stargate in standard PvT vs Bio. Opening Oracle is big investment on the part of the Protoss for map control, if the Oracle wasn't worth the investment then Stargate openers lose their viability outside of all ins.
As I said. In a vacuum the Oracle is fine, the only reason it's a problem is because of how it fits into the flexibility of the Protoss early game. That flexibility is the problem, the individual units are not.
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On February 23 2014 23:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? The Protoss technology is more advanced; thus they have the equivalent of the Banshee, but it comes with stim.
It also detects so it's like a raven too.
And it has shields so it heals.
IT'S A FUCKING BANSHEE-RAVEN-IVAC!
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On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee?
? This is like comparing a marauder to a stalker. The banshee is fine in harass and can give map control too with the air dominance. Its just not as mobile, and doesnt need energy to attack. With cloak its on a whole new level
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On February 23 2014 23:31 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? ? This is like comparing a marauder to a stalker. The banshee is fine in harass and can give map control too with the air dominance. Its just not as mobile, and doesnt need energy to attack. With cloak its on a whole new level
You really cannot compare the strength of banshee openers to oracle openers.
Banshees are pretty easy to deflect and leave the terran in a poor spot once they are. Sometimes they can work out fine but usually it's more the protoss assuming the terran isn't retarded enough to make banshee or because terran got some momentum going with some early aggressive play and he wants to follow it through a bit more (banshees can be quite good in those circumstances) but in the more standard macro games opening banshee is akin to taking a shit with your trousers on.
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On February 23 2014 23:37 ROOTiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:31 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? ? This is like comparing a marauder to a stalker. The banshee is fine in harass and can give map control too with the air dominance. Its just not as mobile, and doesnt need energy to attack. With cloak its on a whole new level You really cannot compare the strength of banshee openers to oracle openers. Banshees are pretty easy to deflect and leave the terran in a poor spot once they are. Sometimes they can work out fine but usually it's more the protoss assuming the terran isn't retarded enough to make banshee or because terran got some momentum going with some early aggressive play and he wants to follow it through a bit more (banshees can be quite good in those circumstances) but in the more standard macro games opening banshee is akin to taking a shit with your trousers on.
If the reverse of the bolded section was true then it would be balanced, but the fact is it isn't true.
Oracles are risk free investments since the Mothership Core covers for the gaps they leave in your early game defenses. Terran has no such fall back plan when they open Banshee.
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On February 23 2014 23:30 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? Not comparable. Terran needs to build a Starport anyway for Medivacs so it isn't as detrimental to standard builds. Unless you're going for Phoenix Collosus you don't want anything out of the Stargate in standard PvT vs Bio. Opening Oracle is big investment on the part of the Protoss for map control, if the Oracle wasn't worth the investment then Stargate openers lose their viability outside of all ins. As I said. In a vacuum the Oracle is fine, the only reason it's a problem is because of how it fits into the flexibility of the Protoss early game. That flexibility is the problem, the individual units are not.
Nothing is in a vacuum. Hell bats prenerf aren't a problem, WMs pruners aren't a problem, infestors, BLs...
You need a tech lab on the starport plus it slows down your medivacs. So yeah, it is a huge detriment to standard builds.
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On February 23 2014 23:31 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? ? This is like comparing a marauder to a stalker. The banshee is fine in harass and can give map control too with the air dominance. Its just not as mobile, and doesnt need energy to attack. With cloak its on a whole new level
Oracles can harass much better. Banshees don't do shit in TvP...
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On February 23 2014 23:46 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:27 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:24 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote:On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas. I don't think the two are comparable. They are on completely different tiers. Stargate to a regular barracks addon. As well as the resources to make it Ok, how about the banshee? Not comparable. Terran needs to build a Starport anyway for Medivacs so it isn't as detrimental to standard builds. Unless you're going for Phoenix Collosus you don't want anything out of the Stargate in standard PvT vs Bio. Opening Oracle is big investment on the part of the Protoss for map control, if the Oracle wasn't worth the investment then Stargate openers lose their viability outside of all ins. As I said. In a vacuum the Oracle is fine, the only reason it's a problem is because of how it fits into the flexibility of the Protoss early game. That flexibility is the problem, the individual units are not. Nothing is in a vacuum. Hell bats prenerf aren't a problem, WMs pruners aren't a problem, infestors, BLs... You need a tech lab on the starport plus it slows down your medivacs. So yeah, it is a huge detriment to standard builds.
You know as well as I do the detriments are not equivalent.
And Helbats pre-nerf were a problem. Infestors Pre-Nerf were a problem.
I don't see how you think these things are comparable. They aren't.
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On February 23 2014 23:23 Tanzklaue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:17 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:10 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping. Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping. Maru scanned the main and saw nothing and his three attempts at scouting were actively shut down, clearly something was going on that zest did not want him to see and that should have set off alarm bells in Maru's head making finding out what is happening his number one priority. He did not do that and as a result he was put in an awkward position. You can blame it on balance but Maru's game sense failed him in this match. yes, let's blame not 100% perfect gamesense on all losses of terran recently. protoss always denies terran scouting. not necessarily because they really need to hide something, but because they can. that way terran has to fear all the options that protoss could possibly be hiding. even with perfect gamesense as you call it it's stil more luck than anything to actually hit that one scan that confirms exactly what protoss is doing, and most of the time it's too alte at that point for terran to really do anything against it except going all in imediately. again, it all comes down to the fact that protoss almost can do whatever while terran needsto prepare the best they can against everything. it is literally impossible to do that. it's a gambit if you prepared for the right thing. and even if you prepare perfectly protoss still might just roll over you or transition out into a perfectly normal standard game (blink pressure says hi).
^ This exactly. Terran just have to prepare for everything in the early game. There is not a single Terran all-in that will work against Protoss. On the other hand, Protoss can do all sorts of All-ins. Resulting the early game completely imbalance. Don't know why this is not obvious to Blizzard, David Kim....
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just want to chime in and say for the most part the "balance" discussion is extremely civilised this LR, and is more a discussion of the game dynamics than whine.
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EPT
