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On February 23 2014 22:56 Pangpootata wrote:Maru misread, thought it was a blink allin, and was on the defensive. At one point in the game he had 18 marines vs 1 stalker 1 sentry and 1 msc from Zest in army size. When he realised Zest had a third and went scv allin, it was too late as Zest's gateway explosion just started. That being said, it was still quite close.
That is the problem. Zest can actually get away with having 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 oracle and 1 MSC vs 18 marines. Even if Maru goes across the map, Zest can hold. P have all scouting info while denying map control and scouting from T. The early game is just very P favored atm.
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IDK why people are calling out imba when it's just KT being too strong for everyone like the usual.
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ForGG spot on here. The oracle gives too much flexibility. It is insanely fast, can charge right into and take down up to 4 marines with no micro, and many more if micro'd. Maru was perfect with his marines and still could not take down that oracle. Maru made like 3 attempts to send an scv scout down which got stopped by that oracle that should have been dead if it weren't so damn fast.
I mean, should it really be impossible to kill an oracle early game? It was insanely good before the patch, then when they made it faster, it was like WHAT? I mean, everyone agreed it was a good unit, there was not ONE person who went "oracles are so weak, man they are so slow".
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On February 23 2014 22:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:58 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well Probably just trolls trying to bait an argument. Zest is good yo. I'm just glad we ended the day on an exciting game. The rest of the matches today were pretty ho hum, to be honest =/
Yeah, they where definitely more exciting on paper. Looking at you, Flash vs Maru.
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On February 23 2014 22:56 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maru just needs to play more like Polt, obviously
And Protoss can just play like HerO.
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On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well
Well it works both ways. I get really annoyed when amazing players are overlooked because of their race, but just because the players are amazing doesn't mean there's no balance discussion to be had either. That being said, I wouldn't put this match in the imba column.
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On February 23 2014 23:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well Well it works both ways. I get really annoyed when amazing players are overlooked because of their race, but just because the players are amazing doesn't mean there's no balance discussion to be had either. That being said, I wouldn't put this match in the imba column.
Yeah, especially since he held the SCV pull without storm....which normally is impossible lol
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On February 23 2014 22:57 kawin159 wrote:
Did you guy see the game???Zest had 1 nexus ahead for like 1-1.30 min and maru had no Idea what going on. Then u guy come to whinnig balance issue without any idea but PROTOSS IMBA?? WTF
Do you watch the game? The oracle opening made scouting pretty much impossible. I guess Maru could just keep scanning the third...
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On February 23 2014 23:00 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:56 Pangpootata wrote:Maru misread, thought it was a blink allin, and was on the defensive. At one point in the game he had 18 marines vs 1 stalker 1 sentry and 1 msc from Zest in army size. When he realised Zest had a third and went scv allin, it was too late as Zest's gateway explosion just started. That being said, it was still quite close. That is the problem. Zest can actually get away with having 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 oracle and 1 MSC vs 18 marines. Even if Maru goes across the map, Zest can hold. P have all scouting info while denying map control and scouting from T. The early game is just very P favored atm.
No, Maru could have won if he attacked earlier before the gateway explosion completed. The game was actually very close, even with Maru's late realisation.
That being said, it is true that P has much more good aggressive options that T has to be wary of than the other way currently.
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On February 23 2014 23:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well Well it works both ways. I get really annoyed when amazing players are overlooked because of their race, but just because the players are amazing doesn't mean there's no balance discussion to be had either. That being said, I wouldn't put this match in the imba column. Yeah, especially since he held the SCV pull without storm....which normally is impossible lol
It's not impossible at all... He had a 2k hit points Cannon and Maru was nowhere close to the critical mass beyond which bio demolishes Protoss compositions lacking AoE.
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Great games, would have been sad with 2x3-0 to start of the season but the ace match did not disappoint one bit.
And glorious points for the FPL!
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On February 23 2014 23:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well Well it works both ways. I get really annoyed when amazing players are overlooked because of their race, but just because the players are amazing doesn't mean there's no balance discussion to be had either. That being said, I wouldn't put this match in the imba column. Yeah, especially since he held the SCV pull without storm....which normally is impossible lol
But that was because it wasn't a planned SCV pull, Maru just had to go...
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On February 23 2014 23:04 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:57 kawin159 wrote:
Did you guy see the game???Zest had 1 nexus ahead for like 1-1.30 min and maru had no Idea what going on. Then u guy come to whinnig balance issue without any idea but PROTOSS IMBA?? WTF Do you watch the game? The oracle opening made scouting pretty much impossible. I guess Maru could just keep scanning the third...
Yeah.. who needs mules?!
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On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning.
If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping.
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Does anyone know when the FPL scores are calculated?
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On February 23 2014 23:04 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:00 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 Pangpootata wrote:Maru misread, thought it was a blink allin, and was on the defensive. At one point in the game he had 18 marines vs 1 stalker 1 sentry and 1 msc from Zest in army size. When he realised Zest had a third and went scv allin, it was too late as Zest's gateway explosion just started. That being said, it was still quite close. That is the problem. Zest can actually get away with having 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 oracle and 1 MSC vs 18 marines. Even if Maru goes across the map, Zest can hold. P have all scouting info while denying map control and scouting from T. The early game is just very P favored atm. No, Maru could have won if he attacked earlier before the gateway explosion completed. The game was actually very close, even with Maru's late realisation. That being said, it is true that P has much more good aggressive options that T has to be wary of than the other way currently.
There might be a very few seconds where he could had done damage. However it is impossible for Maru to know the exact few seconds when he can attack. Also it is a hell of a gamle to move out without stim or medivacs, blind on a map vs Protoss. What is Zest just finishes 8 Gateways? What if 4 Oracles gets into the main? What if...
The small timing for Maru do to damage compared to the risk of him just looking like an idiot loosing his army halfway across the map will pay off in 1/100 games. The other 99 games people will calling him out for an idiot moving out to try to do damage 
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For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough.
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On February 23 2014 22:57 kawin159 wrote:
Did you guy see the game???Zest had 1 nexus ahead for like 1-1.30 min and maru had no Idea what going on. Then u guy come to whinnig balance issue without any idea but PROTOSS IMBA?? WTF
Watch the game again.
Look at how Zest was able to get away with that kind of excessive greed.
Look at how Maru drops a Bunker despite only scouting 1 Stalker 1 Sentry and an Oracle.
Zest was able to get away with his greed because he tricked Maru into thinking he was going to be aggressive. Maru had no choice but to react because if Zest WAS being aggressive and Maru has no Bunker he takes a ton of damage.
Even if Maru had moved across the map with the Marines he had, Zest had enough with the MSC and Warp Ins to hold. Maru's only option was an SCV Pull, which is All In. If he didn't all In then Zest gets a free economy lead (and a huge one at that) just off of the fact that he abused the metagame and how strong Protoss Aggressive Options are.
Maru made every call correctly based off of the information available. Zest was only able to cut the corners he was able to cut because of the metagame, in a balanced metagame Maru would have more options than he was left with.
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EPT
