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VKCA
Canada391 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:50 Hider wrote: I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Care to link me to a specific time/battle? I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively.. | ||
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VKCA
Canada391 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:51 juvenal wrote: lol wtf since when it tastosis encouraged to advertise WoT on official gomtv streams? a while lol... gomtv broadcasts Wot......... | ||
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Keeemy
Finland7855 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:51 juvenal wrote: lol wtf since when it tastosis encouraged to advertise WoT on official gomtv streams? GOM broadcasts WoT games so of course they're gonna advertise them. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
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Nomzter
Sweden2802 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:51 VKCA wrote: I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively.. Im pretty sure he made thors, atleast I have a clear picture of him doing it in game 1 on frost. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:51 VKCA wrote: I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively.. Yeh Life kept overcommiting to poorly executed counterattacks. Taeja just focus'ed on defending, while Lifer never really adapted. I don't think the "only defend" style has any long-term sustainability as bio + widow mines is too inefficient in 200 supply battles. IMO terrans best-long term option is simply turtle raven mech. I think the bio + widow mine style is only gonna be less efficient as time goes on. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap. that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking... | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:54 Hider wrote: Yeh Life kept overcommiting to poorly executed counterattacks. Taeja just focus'ed on defending, while Lifer never really adapted. I don't think the "only defend" style has any long-term sustainability as bio + widow mines is too inefficient in 200 supply battles. Life sometimes goes oot with aggression and counter attacks, it doesn't work against Taeja who is just super solid and never makes micro mistakes almost | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
1. People were claiming how Inno lost it, rather than Soulkey won it, in WCS Korea finals Season 1 (HoTS). I argued otherwise (in the first PR thread). I saw something in Soulkey - his ability to adapt his play, his mental resolve for comebacks. Fast forward now, and Soulkey is standing at the top, and Inno is lost in the woods. 2. Zerg has been under-performing in HoTS. Soulkey shines above the rest. His play is solid, impressive, and a joy to watch (how he shuts down all his opponent's attacks and builds, sooner or later) Interesting finals. Most solid Protoss versus most solid Zerg. Soulkey No. 1! Soulkey Fighting! | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:50 VKCA wrote: "in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose) The thing is, with turrets, you have to make a decision to commit to them. You can't just add 1-2 in and then add them bit by bit. Because the Zerg will just go where there isn't any. So the choice is either to make enough turrets so everything is covered so you can move out. Making your move out much weaker. Or you stay in your base and try to defend with out turrets. And then move out with big army and hope you force the Zerg to come back. Look, these Korean Terrans are the best in the world. If the solution was just to throw a couple turrets down, they would have done it. Why do you think blizzard buffed Queens in WoL. Early roaches dealt with hellions fine. But going early roaches and then having the Terran stop at 6 hellions into 3CC put the Zerg behind. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:47 Topin wrote: you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3 however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote: yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility. but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap. that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking... But there is a clear assymmetry right? LIke harassing with Mutaslisk by switching back and fourth bettween the main and the 3rd requires a lot less EAPM than defending against that. And attacking with bio requires alot more EAPM than tellling your blings to a-move against biological units. When Widow Mines were considered more efficient, battles were much harder to execute for zerg. Now the risk/reward of not having so much attention on the banelings has reduced by quite a bit, which makes it a lot easier for the zerg. So if the zerg simply plays this style an equally skilled terran can't have time to control both his army all the time while also defending against harass and runby's due to the assymmetry of EAPM it requires. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:56 RKC wrote: Whatever happens in the final, Soulkey is the best player in 2013 for me. 1. People were claiming how Inno lost it, rather than Soulkey won it, in WCS Korea finals Season 1 (HoTS). I argued otherwise (in the first PR thread). I saw something in Soulkey - his ability to adapt his play, his mental resolve for comebacks. Fast forward now, and Soulkey is standing at the top, and Inno is lost in the woods. 2. Zerg has been under-performing in HoTS. Soulkey shines above the rest. His play is solid, impressive, and a joy to watch (how he shuts down all his opponent's attacks and builds, sooner or later) Interesting finals. Most solid Protoss versus most solid Zerg. Soulkey No. 1! Soulkey Fighting! Innovation's been on the decline since STX won PL and as for SK you have to admire his consistency and remember how everyone was saying Rain and SoulKey were the two guys to look out for right as KeSPA made the switch? Guess what boys, we've come full circle. Yes, it's only a Special Event with several really good players but heck you cannot really ask for a better story in something like this. | ||
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Topin
Peru10124 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:57 Kitaen wrote: you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3 however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet in that moment you want to spend your money in rax/upgrades not in millions of turrets | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:50 VKCA wrote: "in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose) yeah that's what i wanted to say, you obvsly don't have to build 15 turrents when you take your 3rd base, 1 or maybe 2 per base are absolutely fine at that point | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance. anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:00 Topin wrote: in that moment you want to spend your money in rax/upgrades not in millions of turrets at that moment your should already have 5-7 rax and every upgrade running unless your macro sucks (and it's a regular macro game) | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2337 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote: yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility. but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap. that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking... Yeah, what that match really came down to is how much Soulkey just outplayed Maru. But Bomber vs Soulkey showed that marine/widow is still strong if microed well. I think maybe it's fair to expect that level of attention and control, in the end it just demands more of the players which is better for the game IMO. It's much like marine vs lurker in BW... lurkers are great vs marines, unless you're vs Flash. | ||
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