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On December 06 2013 23:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:49 VKCA wrote:On December 06 2013 23:48 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote:
soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol. Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas. taeja life dreamhack finals........ I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still)
I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed.
Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:02 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
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Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 06 2013 23:57 Kitaen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:47 Topin wrote:On December 06 2013 23:42 Kitaen wrote:On December 06 2013 23:40 Topin wrote:On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?  the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit no, just build more turrets :-) he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3 however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet
I don't think Soulkey would lose too many mutas to turrets...
Like you said, TvZ is all about contesting the 4th of Zerg. So it comes down to offense vs defense, it is a choice the players make. With Bomber and Maru! they choose offense. Yes, it didn't work. But to claim they would have won if they just build a few more turrets is ridiculous.
It is like saying that if the Zerg had burrow banelings at that spot where the Terran didn't scan, they would have won.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
where turrets would have won/done really well for maru was game 1 lol. just one turret outside his natural = maru much ahead.
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On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote:
Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row.
These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event.
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Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:50 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:49 VKCA wrote:On December 06 2013 23:48 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote:
soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol. Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas. taeja life dreamhack finals........ I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe. e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
But mines also sometimes shoot at 1 ling or they don't get to fire before mutas pick them off. It is not like every mine is always worth it.
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On December 07 2013 00:03 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:02 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year. you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
You could for Terran. For Protoss we have six guys who have been running pretty good throughout the year in individual leagues anyway and people used to say Protoss wasn't diverse.
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On December 07 2013 00:03 foxmeep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote:
yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility.
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap.
that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking... Yeah, what that match really came down to is how much Soulkey just outplayed Maru. But Bomber vs Soulkey showed that marine/widow is still strong if microed well. I think maybe it's fair to expect that level of attention and control, in the end it just demands more of the players which is better for the game IMO. It's much like marine vs lurker in BW... lurkers are great vs marines, unless you're vs Flash.
Well Soulkey admitted yesterday, that his play was poor, measured by his standards. And to my surprise, he really stepped it up to yet another level tonight. Really strong play, nothing you can do against that!
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On December 07 2013 00:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:03 Big J wrote:On December 06 2013 23:50 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:49 VKCA wrote:On December 06 2013 23:48 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote:
soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol. Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas. taeja life dreamhack finals........ I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe. e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question. But mines also sometimes shoot at 1 ling or they don't get to fire before mutas pick them off. It is not like every mine is always worth it.
and Z learned how to trigger them or make them do friendly fire... idk... lets creat a sad marine / sad WM / sad tan Fan Club T_T
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On December 07 2013 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:50 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:49 VKCA wrote:On December 06 2013 23:48 Hider wrote:On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote:
soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol. Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas. taeja life dreamhack finals........ I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe. e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
Yes this example is exactly my point. Throughout the entire series, Taeja just lured Life into overaggresive situations, and Life never adapted. But that type of defensive oriented playstyle doesn't have any long-lasting chance, because if Taeja continues to play like that against an opponent who doesn't overcommit, then the zerg is free to tech to hive fast, which IMO favors the zerg.
So Taeja used Mines in a way that took advantage of Life's specific weakness - that's kinda it. Mines are used for defensive purposes will over the longer haul proove to be a gimmick as they simply are too supply inefficient. When you play defensive, it is because you expect to have stronger maxed out army than your opponent. At the moment bio + mines doens't provide that.
It wouldn't really have worked against Soulkey I believe, as he showed a much better balance between when to defend and when to harass.
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Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
Would PvZ be his real weak point?
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On December 07 2013 00:05 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote:
Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row. These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event.
Ha, I'll definitely concede that this one is the least awesome of those achievements!
I guess I just mean that Maru has had a huge quantum leap in results this year, being in the event is as much as anything a reflection of his success earlier on.
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On another note, I would really really really like to see Taeja vs Soulkey right now.
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On December 07 2013 00:10 foxmeep wrote:
On another note, I would really really really like to see Taeja vs Soulkey right now.
i just wet my pants
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On December 07 2013 00:10 RookUK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:05 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote:
Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row. These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event. Ha, I'll definitely concede that this one is the least awesome of those achievements! I guess I just mean that Maru has had a huge quantum leap in results this year, being in the event is as much as anything a reflection of his success earlier on.
This is true. Definitely one of the Terran studs for the last year. He was pretty much a lock in several of these Events.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:10 RKC wrote:
Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
Would PvZ be his real weak point?
i still think soulkey's ZvT is his weakest, he outplayed maru because maru really didn't look his best. soulkey looks shaky against the top terrans - both his matches against bomber, and consistent losses to bogus. of course it's still very good, but his ZvZ and ZvP winrates are much better. he beat rain 3-0 recently.
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On December 07 2013 00:03 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:02 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year. you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
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On December 07 2013 00:12 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:03 opterown wrote:On December 07 2013 00:02 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year. you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now. I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:12 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:03 opterown wrote:On December 07 2013 00:02 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at. Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year. you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now. I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
i dno, life and jaedong are pretty up there. it's hard to compare the three since they don't play in the same tournaments that often, but those 3 are the leaders of zerg pretty much.
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On December 07 2013 00:12 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:10 RKC wrote:
Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
Would PvZ be his real weak point? i still think soulkey's ZvT is his weakest, he outplayed maru because maru really didn't look his best. soulkey looks shaky against the top terrans - both his matches against bomber, and consistent losses to bogus. of course it's still very good, but his ZvZ and ZvP winrates are much better. he beat rain 3-0 recently.
Yes, but does any other Zerg player has a better TvZ record than Soulkey (against the top Terrans)? Jaedong? Life? Scarlett? I still think Soulkey is stronger than them in TvZ.
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EPT
