★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (10)
48%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (8)
38%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
★★★ - Good game (1)
5%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 2?
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (14)
67%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
19%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
★★★ - Good game (1)
5%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 3?
★★★ - Good game (9)
43%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (5)
24%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
19%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (3)
14%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
8%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 4?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
36%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (3)
27%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
18%
★★★ - Good game (1)
9%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
9%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 2?
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (8)
50%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
25%
★★★ - Good game (3)
19%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
6%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 3?
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (11)
69%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
13%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
13%
★★★ - Good game (1)
6%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 4?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 5?
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
38%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
25%
★★★ - Good game (2)
25%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
13%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
I think we all overestimated Soulkeys ZvT in the beginning of Hots, he looked hopeless against Innovation at that time, but we hailed him as savior of the Zerg race because he won 1 macro game against him in Proleague (yeah I know WCS season 1).
Innovation destroyed him pretty much every time they met and now he narrowly escapes someone who has arguably a bad TvZ (who he lost to 3 weeks prior) after the Widow Mine patch.
He is 50% TvZ after the WCS final against Innovation. And the opponent list isnt that impressive (small samplesize, but thats all we have)
On December 06 2013 00:08 NovaMB wrote: I think we all overestimated Soulkeys ZvT in the beginning of Hots, he looked hopeless against Innovation at that time, but we hailed him as savior of the Zerg race because he won 1 macro game against him in Proleague (yeah I know WCS season 1).
Innovation destroyed him pretty much every time they met and now he narrowly escapes someone who has arguably a bad TvZ (who he lost to 3 weeks prior) after the Widow Mine patch.
He is 50% TvZ after the WCS final against Innovation. And the opponent list isnt that impressive (small samplesize, but thats all we have)
Actually Soulkey beat Innovation in a macro game in Proleague. Couple of days before Innovation mauled Life and Flash in Group B. And yes, Soulkey's ZvT is bad, after all his practice partners were wjs terrans, what did you expect?
On December 05 2013 23:47 JustPassingBy wrote: Wtf, I just realized that Soulkey managed to reverse 3-0 Bomber, after I left for lunch because I thought the series was over...
If Soulkey will start to get 2-0'd by Maru, may you be kind and leave ?
On December 06 2013 00:08 NovaMB wrote: I think we all overestimated Soulkeys ZvT in the beginning of Hots, he looked hopeless against Innovation at that time, but we hailed him as savior of the Zerg race because he won 1 macro game against him in Proleague (yeah I know WCS season 1).
Innovation destroyed him pretty much every time they met and now he narrowly escapes someone who has arguably a bad TvZ (who he lost to 3 weeks prior) after the Widow Mine patch.
He is 50% TvZ after the WCS final against Innovation. And the opponent list isnt that impressive (small samplesize, but thats all we have)
On August 26 2013 05:31 Big J wrote: the matchup looks far from unwinnable for a top-zerg. point is maybe that the topzergs in korea are lacking in TvZ currently. Watching JD or Soulkey or Life these days is pretty painful, because they have shitty macro-gameplans...
On December 06 2013 01:26 DiMano wrote: Dear vs Soulkey would be the best end of the year. If they make it to the finals then you can say that it is the best vs the best of this year.
For the new twitch stuff that gom is putting out, could we add a VODs section to the live report threads with spoiler-tagged links to each game? It's impossible to watch the VODs right now without being spoiled on the outcome (for example, there's 3 VODs for Rain-Symbol on day 1, so you already know it's a 3-0 and after 1 game you know Rain wins) and that makes me a sad panda.
On December 05 2013 23:47 JustPassingBy wrote: Wtf, I just realized that Soulkey managed to reverse 3-0 Bomber, after I left for lunch because I thought the series was over...
Never underestimate the true power of Bomber.
But to be honest, Soulkey played a lot better than in the first two games. I've already said this in another thread, but I think that he is one of the best players when playing from behind(in terms of losing 0-2 and making a comeback) and when under pressure.
So the worst case scenario for Maru is another 3rd/4th place finish, and if he makes it past Soulkey it's either a rematch of the OSL final or another showdown with Dear - I'll be extremely excited for either of those. Maru was pure class as usual today, hope he can keep it up!
On December 06 2013 13:22 Shellshock wrote: Hoping Maru can pull it off! I would vote for you because of that post, Bisudagger, if you were in this round. Alas, I'll have to wait.
<3 We've got the ro32 to look forward to. Should be exciting.
My roomate has an exam tomorrow(today) at 8am and I don't want to set an alarm up for 5 am and wake him up(he's just now in his bed, won't go to sleep for a bit)
On December 06 2013 16:08 Zealously wrote: GOM eXP @GOMEXP 2m Would like to let you guys know that the 2013 HOT6ix CUP Ro4 will be delayed by 1h30min! The broadcast will start at 8:30PM (KST)
On December 06 2013 16:18 opterown wrote: wow, that is pretty late. if it goes long maru might run into troubles as he's a minor and can't game past midnight
Guessing some problems with traffic/trains. Or might even be a technical issue they are working on xD I feel like the PvP first up, is going to be awful games, with a coin flip answer. Im pretty sure its going to be 3-2 as well. When pros, who are pretty good at the game, start saying how coinflippy the match has become since the recent patch. You know anything can happen and that something needs to be done. I like to see the better player win, not luck >.<
Having said that, Maru vs Soulkey should be great fun. I reckon Maru will use some mind games and not go Mech at all in this series. Go back to his awesome bio mine builds.
Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
On December 06 2013 20:36 Pandemona wrote: Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
computer generation, gaming nerds... I dont see how playing past midnight is an issue :O But what do I know, maybe they have normal working hours in their teamhouses
On December 06 2013 20:36 Pandemona wrote: Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
they might only be able to do one semi final to do as maru will not be able to play after midnight.
On December 06 2013 15:43 Pandain wrote: My roomate has an exam tomorrow(today) at 8am and I don't want to set an alarm up for 5 am and wake him up(he's just now in his bed, won't go to sleep for a bit)
Decisions
I ended up staying up silently in bed. Sigh. Another all igniter since it won't end before 10
On December 06 2013 20:36 Pandemona wrote: Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
computer generation, gaming nerds... I dont see how playing past midnight is an issue :O But what do I know, maybe they have normal working hours in their teamhouses
It's illegal for minors to play past midnight if I understand correctly.
Disclaimer: may or may not apply to tournament settings (under adult supervision, I guess?).
On December 06 2013 20:36 Pandemona wrote: Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
computer generation, gaming nerds... I dont see how playing past midnight is an issue :O But what do I know, maybe they have normal working hours in their teamhouses
Its illegal for Maru to play past midnight since he is under-age. That is actually a national legislation.
On December 06 2013 20:36 Pandemona wrote: Yeah would be interesting, im guessing technical problem in the studio..shame, as like someone mentioned going be bit hard on the players! Playing till gone midnight is a possibility here.
computer generation, gaming nerds... I dont see how playing past midnight is an issue :O But what do I know, maybe they have normal working hours in their teamhouses
It's illegal for minors to play past midnight if I understand correctly.
Disclaimer: may or may not apply to tournament settings (under adult supervision, I guess?).
does apply, creator almost had to forfeit once in a long up/down group
I have issues on medium, all week it auto put me on High and no lag :S Guessing could be an issue or two. Can't tell as the internet at work isn't the best. Will get better picture when im home i guess.
Bomber lost to Soulkey. there's no way Maru beats him.
Err completely different TvZ to be honest, can't say just cuz Bomber lost Maru will. Especially with Maru showing he can do Mech builds in Tvz now. Soulkey isn't just playing vs straight bio all the time like Bomber did.
On December 06 2013 21:13 Mintie wrote: oh god now we're never going to find out who's #2
lol was just about to say this. i say it's Squirtle though. maybe Parting. or he would've said "it's you Taaaaasteleeeeess" or Incontrol or some random shit like that.
On December 06 2013 21:13 Mintie wrote: oh god now we're never going to find out who's #2
lol was just about to say this. i say it's Squirtle though. maybe Parting. or he would've said "it's you Taaaaasteleeeeess" or Incontrol or some random shit like that.
It's gotta be Parting right? I don't think he's a big sOs fan.
On December 06 2013 21:13 Mintie wrote: oh god now we're never going to find out who's #2
lol was just about to say this. i say it's Squirtle though. maybe Parting. or he would've said "it's you Taaaaasteleeeeess" or Incontrol or some random shit like that.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (10)
48%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (8)
38%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
★★★ - Good game (1)
5%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (10)
48%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (8)
38%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
★★★ - Good game (1)
5%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Do not see this game no matter what actually feels like a recommendation for the game. If I missed some games and saw that, I would watch it just to see what happened
On December 06 2013 21:22 Qwerty85 wrote: Do not see this game no matter what actually feels like a recommendation for the game. If I missed some games and saw that, I would watch it just to see what happened
it was nothing special but rain making mistakes and dear doing the right call
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
19%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
★★★ - Good game (1)
5%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 21:35 Keeemy wrote: Rofl that ad said $79.99/month. SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD DEAL EH
It isn't really $79.99 for only a month, right? I feel stupid for even asking this because it would be absolutely insane.
It is for the whole year. You also have cheeper option that also gives you VODs and high (but no source) stream. I am still thinking about buying anything right now since lag is a major deterrent.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
19%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (3)
14%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
19%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (3)
14%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
21 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 22:04 Undead1993 wrote: oh artosis, so if i have a lot of stalkers i dont need to worry about vrs or tempests? my ladder tells me otherwise
if i have a lots of stalkers and he has a lot of vrs, i normally leave the game
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
8%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 4?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
36%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (3)
27%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
18%
★★★ - Good game (1)
9%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
9%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
8%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 4?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
36%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (3)
27%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
18%
★★★ - Good game (1)
9%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
9%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Rain vs. Dear Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 22:09 Undead1993 wrote: guys i have a question to these awards, only people patricipating in this tournament will get those or is it like a whole year review?
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 1?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 22:38 maartendq wrote: And all he has to do is build a couple of turrets..
He had little roach squadrons spread over all 3 bases. That would only help if Maru somehow saw that roaches look different and put a turret in front before the attack even happened.
Argh, burrowed roaches are so strong against mech if you're not suspecting it. I remember losing a maxed army to a huge pack of roaches waiting for me in the middle of the map - luckily I've very rarely seen it tried on the ladder since then.
On December 06 2013 22:38 maartendq wrote: And all he has to do is build a couple of turrets..
He had little roach squadrons spread over all 3 bases. That would only help if Maru somehow saw that roaches look different and put a turret in front before the attack even happened.
He couldn't even clean them with 5 orbitals.
The turrets are build at your tank line. So he could have saved his main/natural easily.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
25%
★★★ - Good game (3)
19%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
6%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
25%
★★★ - Good game (3)
19%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
6%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Soulkey's complete shutdown of Maru's mech in game 1 was actually a huge favor to Maru.
If the game had looked close, Maru would keep trying and trying and lose close games over and over. This way he ditched mech right away because it just straight up failed.
Pretty nice mind games that he keep making hellions forcing roaches but actually going to bio behind it. Soulkey not getting tricked too much by it though
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
You throw buildings where you can when you play Hellions/Banshees. Your attention is required elsewhere.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
You throw buildings where you can when you play Hellions/Banshees. Your attention is required elsewhere.
Yeah exactly. No time to align perfect rows of pylons and gates like Protoss players do. *wink*
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
You throw buildings where you can when you play Hellions/Banshees. Your attention is required elsewhere.
For someone with 300 APM and thousands of games played like a progamer has, this is a pretty bad excuse.
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
You throw buildings where you can when you play Hellions/Banshees. Your attention is required elsewhere.
Just think about it beforehand for every map. They have a gameplan anyway, shouldn't be to hard to remember placements on top of that.
On December 06 2013 23:16 CruelZeratul wrote: So what is this with SC2 pros not builing important structures in secure places? Not at the fucking edge of their base.
yeah, baffles me too, seems such a simple and easy thing to fix.
You throw buildings where you can when you play Hellions/Banshees. Your attention is required elsewhere.
For someone with 300 APM and thousands of games played like a progamer has, this is a pretty bad excuse.
Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
Maru looks very chilled out for someone who has to win two games consecutively against Soulkey. There were definitely shades of Jaedong vs Maru in that game, he fought so hard from so far behind. Hope he can tie it up.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
On December 06 2013 23:23 RookUK wrote: Maru looks very chilled out for someone who has two win two games consecutively against Soulkey. There were definitely shades of Jaedong vs Maru in that game, he fought so hard from so far behind. Hope he can tie it up.
I wouldn't be too concerned. This map is Z favored while the last one was T favored. They played out like expected.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Talking about "apm" when referring to an action whose main difficulty lies in clicking at two precise locations in a super short span of time because you have to instantly switch back your camera to your fragile Hellions/Banshees shows the contrary.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
it happens to all races, remember how late game pvz always had mass chargelot warp in killing the greater spire? none of the korean pro bothered to place their spines and spores to give it a full surround
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
it happens to all races, remember how late game pvz always had mass chargelot warp in killing the greater spire? none of the korean pro bothered to place their spines and spores to give it a full surround
Aye, and Protoss players still do horrible Artosis pylons.
It's just small things, but it can make a difference and it can be what distinguishes players just that little bit right at the very top.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Talking about "apm" when referring to an action whose main difficulty lies in clicking at two precise locations in a super short span of time because you have to instantly switch back your camera to your fragile Hellions/Banshees shows the contrary.
Exactly. Plus it requires selecting a worker first, so you usually select one in a mineral line by using either camera saves or CC hotkeys, and you don't have time to scroll or click on the minimap to place buildings very far from there. Hence why ebays often end up around the CCs, kinda exposed. I agree that ideally they shouldn't be there, but it's a far more complicated thing that you make it sound like, marvellosity.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
No turrets à 15 minutes it's because of the micro he did with his hellion/banshee opening? It costs no APM to throw down a few turrets while building supplys. It was a choice.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Seriously, terran is so so busy when hellions are out and you start switching addons around, building infrastructure, scvs, hitting upgrades, landing third, all at the same time as you need to actually have your eyes on your hellions and micro them. Its an insanely important moment in the game and at this level you dont have the luxury to pick good locations for buldings.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
No turrets à 15 minutes it's because of the micro he did with his hellion/banshee opening? It costs no APM to throw down a few turrets while building supplys. It was a choice.
I never said anything about Turrets... The question was EB placement.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Seriously, terran is so so busy when hellions are out and you start switching addons around, building infrastructure, scvs, hitting upgrades, landing third, all at the same time as you need to actually have your eyes on your hellions and micro them. Its an insanely important moment in the game and at this level you dont have the luxury to pick good locations for buldings.
If you're only building your ebays as you're landing your 3rd, you're doin something wrong too :p
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
No turrets à 15 minutes it's because of the micro he did with his hellion/banshee opening? It costs no APM to throw down a few turrets while building supplys. It was a choice.
I never said anything about Turrets... The question was EB placement.
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
No turrets à 15 minutes it's because of the micro he did with his hellion/banshee opening? It costs no APM to throw down a few turrets while building supplys. It was a choice.
I never said anything about Turrets... The question was EB placement.
And turret building is actually a very easy thing to do mechanically-wise, compared to placing your e-bays and rax and shit like that :D
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Seriously, terran is so so busy when hellions are out and you start switching addons around, building infrastructure, scvs, hitting upgrades, landing third, all at the same time as you need to actually have your eyes on your hellions and micro them. Its an insanely important moment in the game and at this level you dont have the luxury to pick good locations for buldings.
If you're only building your ebays as you're landing your 3rd, you're doin something wrong too :p
uhm what? You get your ebays around 7-8 and you land your third usually between 8-10?
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Seriously, terran is so so busy when hellions are out and you start switching addons around, building infrastructure, scvs, hitting upgrades, landing third, all at the same time as you need to actually have your eyes on your hellions and micro them. Its an insanely important moment in the game and at this level you dont have the luxury to pick good locations for buldings.
If you're only building your ebays as you're landing your 3rd, you're doin something wrong too :p
uhm what? You get your ebays around 7-8 and you land your third usually between 8-10?
On December 06 2013 23:22 marvellosity wrote: Yes actually. Saying "no" does not invalidate the argument.
If you're not capable of putting a building in a certain part of your base, you're doing something wrong. And it can, and does, cost games, so it's worth fixing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have plenty idea what I'm talking about, continue being a condescending arse though, that makes you look great.
Seriously, terran is so so busy when hellions are out and you start switching addons around, building infrastructure, scvs, hitting upgrades, landing third, all at the same time as you need to actually have your eyes on your hellions and micro them. Its an insanely important moment in the game and at this level you dont have the luxury to pick good locations for buldings.
If you're only building your ebays as you're landing your 3rd, you're doin something wrong too :p
uhm what? You get your ebays around 7-8 and you land your third usually between 8-10?
I note that they are not the same timeframes
ffs have you even watche terrans production tab in a pro game? if you go banshee you get your ebays a little later usually. You dont seem to know what your talking about but trying to be funny or something
I really like what Soulkey does to negate Terran's strengths. Once Terran is on your doorstep it's so hard to defend, but he constantly attacks everywhere and keeps pulling Terran back.
This game is amazing, like a high level Brood War game, the action is just everywhere... So much microing, macroing and multitasking, it is just amazing!
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
On December 06 2013 23:38 illidanx wrote: maru does not even bother to split anymore
because he cant keep up the multitask
I feel like he can't keep up because he never has any turrets. Mutas are fast flying units so it is easier to harass with them than defend against them without any static defense. So he keeps too much attention on his base and then fails to control the army.
soulkey just pulling maru apart, any time he tries to attack soulkey backstabs then runs banelings against maru when he's not looking... how bomber lost yesterday, just soulkey forcing them to look somewhere else when they need to be splitting.. whirlwind so big
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
Because good Zergs will just look for another angle. And if you build enough turrets to cover all your bases, you miss your 3 base timing and the muta ball gets big enough that turrets don't matter. It is a very fine line.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
Maru lost the game when the first 10 mutas killed the eco at his 3rd base. A few turrets at that point and the game would have gone totally different.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
Right now yes, but at the beginning no turrets and he was obliterated by muta harass. I can feel the pain, I lost to it many times
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 4?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 5?
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
38%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
25%
★★★ - Good game (2)
25%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
13%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Maru vs. Soulkey Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
He didn't have turrets when the muta count was low. In fact he had a great window to attack but was forced to back his entire army against 12 mutalisks ... Someone tells MKP to get out of this booth TT
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
You don't need 4+. You build 1 or 2 initially and that stops Zerg from raping you in the beginning (Soulkey raped Maru's main which had 0 turrets). That allows you to pressure the Zerg in return and keep his muta count from going out of control cause he has to spend gas on banes.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
Because good Zergs will just look for another angle. And if you build enough turrets to cover all your bases, you miss your 3 base timing and the muta ball gets big enough that turrets don't matter. It is a very fine line.
Turrets vs Mutas are not meant to defend your bases but to buy enough time for your marine to protect your scvs. You need 4-5 turrets in total when Zerg has 10-15 mutas.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4 turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
lol 4 turrets will die in less than 10 seconds to a mutaball...
On December 06 2013 23:38 illidanx wrote: maru does not even bother to split anymore
because he cant keep up the multitask
I feel like he can't keep up because he never has any turrets. Mutas are fast flying units so it is easier to harass with them than defend against them without any static defense. So he keeps too much attention on his base and then fails to control the army.
exactly what happened to bomber soulkey game four yesterday, bomber was ahead, way ahead in army supply, then soulkey just kept backstabbing and distracting bomber, and bomber would loose massive chunks of marines to banelings at the beginning of the fight.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
You don't need 4+. You build 1 or 2 initially and that stops Zerg from raping you in the beginning (Soulkey raped Maru's main which had 0 turrets). That allows you to pressure the Zerg in return and keep his muta count from going out of control cause he has to spend gas on banes.
and is too occupied to defend your stream of ranged marine death.
On December 06 2013 23:43 Undead1993 wrote: Shut Down hard! beautiful play by soulkey
Maru was all over the map, and every time he tried to harass/drop/attack, Soulkey was there and at the same time he was attacking and harassing Maru. This is Soulkey at his best, just perfect Zerg play.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
You don't need 4+. You build 1 or 2 initially and that stops Zerg from raping you in the beginning (Soulkey raped Maru's main which had 0 turrets). That allows you to pressure the Zerg in return and keep his muta count from going out of control cause he has to spend gas on banes.
I don't think you understand how poor a job of turrets actually do. 1 turret is so easily sniped, you might as well not build any.
The truth is that there is really veyr little you can do in these type of situations as terran. Obv. you can focus on only defending and not trying to attack at all, but that will eventually lose you the game anyway.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
On December 06 2013 23:43 Dark.Carnival wrote: yay Soulkey~! he played really well today, except for the game where he kinda rolled over and died to the hellion/banshee :3
He played well in that game, too. His poor decision making at the third was made up for by his great call to baneling bust while diverting with Mutas. It didn't work, but it was a really nice try.
soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
You don't need 4+. You build 1 or 2 initially and that stops Zerg from raping you in the beginning (Soulkey raped Maru's main which had 0 turrets). That allows you to pressure the Zerg in return and keep his muta count from going out of control cause he has to spend gas on banes.
I don't think you understand how poor a job of turrets actually do. 1 turret is so easily sniped, you might as well not build any.
That's utter crap you need at least 9 mutas to kill a turret in the mineral line.
On December 06 2013 23:38 illidanx wrote: maru does not even bother to split anymore
because he cant keep up the multitask
I feel like he can't keep up because he never has any turrets. Mutas are fast flying units so it is easier to harass with them than defend against them without any static defense. So he keeps too much attention on his base and then fails to control the army.
exactly what happened to bomber soulkey game four yesterday, bomber was ahead, way ahead in army supply, then soulkey just kept backstabbing and distracting bomber, and bomber would loose massive chunks of marines to banelings at the beginning of the fight.
Bombers knows that he is in huge trouble if his parade push is stopped. His idea is to force the zerg to require is mutas to be at home defending. Never ending pressure will do that but if the zerg manages to force the terran to regroup and macro up a little bit, then SK showed what will happen.
I think you continously have to build turrets against mass mutalisk play. Even when you have already 4-5 per base, you continue building them like this is a part of your macro rotation. Otherwise the mutaball just goes in and one-shots everything. If I recall correctly that's what Taeja did his last tournament win.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru
On December 06 2013 23:44 Qwerty85 wrote: Rain and Soulkey are good players but damn, I hate PvZ finals. Maybe PvZ with Hero in it, but otherwise, nay.
You sure it's because you aren't just bored of PvZ finals? Ha.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
On December 06 2013 23:46 ZenithM wrote: I think you continously have to build turrets against mass mutalisk play. Even when you have already 4-5 per base, you continue building them like this is a part of your macro rotation. Otherwise the mutaball just goes in and one-shots everything. If I recall correctly that's what Taeja did his last tournament win.
thats what i do too. but it helps that i have absolutly shit macro, so i always have the spare minerals to build the turrets.
On December 06 2013 23:38 illidanx wrote: maru does not even bother to split anymore
because he cant keep up the multitask
I feel like he can't keep up because he never has any turrets. Mutas are fast flying units so it is easier to harass with them than defend against them without any static defense. So he keeps too much attention on his base and then fails to control the army.
exactly what happened to bomber soulkey game four yesterday, bomber was ahead, way ahead in army supply, then soulkey just kept backstabbing and distracting bomber, and bomber would loose massive chunks of marines to banelings at the beginning of the fight.
Bombers knows that he is in huge trouble if his parade push is stopped. His idea is to force the zerg to require is mutas to be at home defending. Never ending pressure will do that but if the zerg manages to force the terran to regroup and macro up a little bit, then SK showed what will happen.
yeah exactly, bomber/inno/mma, all those guys just win off the constant parade push, fou.sC style
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
Are you serious? Making that many turrets is a HUGE investment. It is like saying that Protoss don't need nexus cannons because if they made 10-15 regular cannons, they would be fine vs drops and aggression in PvT. Making that much static defense before your 3rd get saturated is a big investment.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
On December 06 2013 23:46 ZenithM wrote: I think you continously have to build turrets against mass mutalisk play. Even when you have already 4-5 per base, you continue building them like this is a part of your macro rotation. Otherwise the mutaball just goes in and one-shots everything. If I recall correctly that's what Taeja did his last tournament win.
idk man, those muta backstab aer a pain in the ass, turrets only gives you time to go back and defend but that is what the Z wants
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
Are you serious? Making that many turrets is a HUGE investment. It is like saying that Protoss don't need nexus cannons because if they made 10-15 regular cannons, they would be fine vs drops and aggression in PvT. Making that much static defense before your 3rd get saturated is a big investment.
"in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose)
On December 06 2013 23:46 ZenithM wrote: I think you continously have to build turrets against mass mutalisk play. Even when you have already 4-5 per base, you continue building them like this is a part of your macro rotation. Otherwise the mutaball just goes in and one-shots everything. If I recall correctly that's what Taeja did his last tournament win.
Don't think that's mass muta play, that's just overall advantage, muta count just keeps growing, and still easily hold expansions without muta's help.
Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Care to link me to a specific time/battle?
I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively..
Turrets are trash once they get a big ball, unless you build like ten of them in one base, which is too much of an investment anyway. If you are turtling behind turrets in TvZ you are playing the matchup wrong. I feel like the mine nerf has hurt most against mutalisks, zergs are less afraid.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Care to link me to a specific time/battle?
I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively..
Im pretty sure he made thors, atleast I have a clear picture of him doing it in game 1 on frost.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Care to link me to a specific time/battle?
I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively..
Yeh Life kept overcommiting to poorly executed counterattacks. Taeja just focus'ed on defending, while Lifer never really adapted. I don't think the "only defend" style has any long-term sustainability as bio + widow mines is too inefficient in 200 supply battles.
IMO terrans best-long term option is simply turtle raven mech. I think the bio + widow mine style is only gonna be less efficient as time goes on.
yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility.
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap.
that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking...
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Care to link me to a specific time/battle?
I didn't mean they won him games with any specific hits, but taeja won rather handily, and he never made thors, and just stuck to widow mines. There wasn't one mega money hit, but they still trade cost effectively..
Yeh Life kept overcommiting to poorly executed counterattacks. Taeja just focus'ed on defending, while Lifer never really adapted. I don't think the "only defend" style has any long-term sustainability as bio + widow mines is too inefficient in 200 supply battles.
Life sometimes goes oot with aggression and counter attacks, it doesn't work against Taeja who is just super solid and never makes micro mistakes almost
Whatever happens in the final, Soulkey is the best player in 2013 for me.
1. People were claiming how Inno lost it, rather than Soulkey won it, in WCS Korea finals Season 1 (HoTS). I argued otherwise (in the first PR thread). I saw something in Soulkey - his ability to adapt his play, his mental resolve for comebacks. Fast forward now, and Soulkey is standing at the top, and Inno is lost in the woods.
2. Zerg has been under-performing in HoTS. Soulkey shines above the rest. His play is solid, impressive, and a joy to watch (how he shuts down all his opponent's attacks and builds, sooner or later)
Interesting finals. Most solid Protoss versus most solid Zerg.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
Are you serious? Making that many turrets is a HUGE investment. It is like saying that Protoss don't need nexus cannons because if they made 10-15 regular cannons, they would be fine vs drops and aggression in PvT. Making that much static defense before your 3rd get saturated is a big investment.
"in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose)
The thing is, with turrets, you have to make a decision to commit to them. You can't just add 1-2 in and then add them bit by bit. Because the Zerg will just go where there isn't any. So the choice is either to make enough turrets so everything is covered so you can move out. Making your move out much weaker. Or you stay in your base and try to defend with out turrets. And then move out with big army and hope you force the Zerg to come back.
Look, these Korean Terrans are the best in the world. If the solution was just to throw a couple turrets down, they would have done it. Why do you think blizzard buffed Queens in WoL. Early roaches dealt with hellions fine. But going early roaches and then having the Terran stop at 6 hellions into 3CC put the Zerg behind.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru
you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade
every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3
however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet
On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote: yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility.
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap.
that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking...
But there is a clear assymmetry right? LIke harassing with Mutaslisk by switching back and fourth bettween the main and the 3rd requires a lot less EAPM than defending against that.
And attacking with bio requires alot more EAPM than tellling your blings to a-move against biological units. When Widow Mines were considered more efficient, battles were much harder to execute for zerg. Now the risk/reward of not having so much attention on the banelings has reduced by quite a bit, which makes it a lot easier for the zerg.
So if the zerg simply plays this style an equally skilled terran can't have time to control both his army all the time while also defending against harass and runby's due to the assymmetry of EAPM it requires.
i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
On December 06 2013 23:56 RKC wrote: Whatever happens in the final, Soulkey is the best player in 2013 for me.
1. People were claiming how Inno lost it, rather than Soulkey won it, in WCS Korea finals Season 1 (HoTS). I argued otherwise (in the first PR thread). I saw something in Soulkey - his ability to adapt his play, his mental resolve for comebacks. Fast forward now, and Soulkey is standing at the top, and Inno is lost in the woods.
2. Zerg has been under-performing in HoTS. Soulkey shines above the rest. His play is solid, impressive, and a joy to watch (how he shuts down all his opponent's attacks and builds, sooner or later)
Interesting finals. Most solid Protoss versus most solid Zerg.
Soulkey No. 1! Soulkey Fighting!
Innovation's been on the decline since STX won PL and as for SK you have to admire his consistency and remember how everyone was saying Rain and SoulKey were the two guys to look out for right as KeSPA made the switch? Guess what boys, we've come full circle. Yes, it's only a Special Event with several really good players but heck you cannot really ask for a better story in something like this.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru
you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade
every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3
however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet
in that moment you want to spend your money in rax/upgrades not in millions of turrets
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
Are you serious? Making that many turrets is a HUGE investment. It is like saying that Protoss don't need nexus cannons because if they made 10-15 regular cannons, they would be fine vs drops and aggression in PvT. Making that much static defense before your 3rd get saturated is a big investment.
"in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose)
yeah that's what i wanted to say, you obvsly don't have to build 15 turrents when you take your 3rd base, 1 or maybe 2 per base are absolutely fine at that point
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru
you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade
every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3
however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet
in that moment you want to spend your money in rax/upgrades not in millions of turrets
at that moment your should already have 5-7 rax and every upgrade running unless your macro sucks (and it's a regular macro game)
On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote: yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility.
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap.
that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking...
Yeah, what that match really came down to is how much Soulkey just outplayed Maru.
But Bomber vs Soulkey showed that marine/widow is still strong if microed well. I think maybe it's fair to expect that level of attention and control, in the end it just demands more of the players which is better for the game IMO.
It's much like marine vs lurker in BW... lurkers are great vs marines, unless you're vs Flash.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
On December 06 2013 23:39 deacon.frost wrote: Why Maru doesn't build turrets and this kind of stuff? Any T to explain it to a dumb Protoss who hates mutalisks more than anything else?
the number of mutas is too high, turrets do shit
no, just build more turrets :-)
he could have afforded 50 turrets for what he lost
its simply dumb to not make turrets to stall the mutas a bit
you cant build that many turrets withouth killing yourself, i agree 1 turret per mineral line or maybe 2 is the way to go but still mutas will find another point to attack like reactors and other things while the numbres keep increasing. Soulkeys is just to good and Maru couldnt counter to stop him... T_T Maru
you can, and it is mandatory moreover it is absolutely doable, especially when you opened 3 cc you can trade turrets to mutas at least 2:1 which makes it in almost every case a good trade
every time you have to run back with 20 marines you let the zerg player take another base, get another upgrade or get closer to t3
however, usually zerg should not be able to get 25+ mutas at all, when you pressure the front while defending back at your base from the start on - the crucial part is when mutas first pop (smth around 10:30 and 12:30 most of the time) - thats also where your macro really starts to kick in. you want to take fights while the baneling count is low and prolly even speedless and zerg has not secured a 4th base yet
I don't think Soulkey would lose too many mutas to turrets...
Like you said, TvZ is all about contesting the 4th of Zerg. So it comes down to offense vs defense, it is a choice the players make. With Bomber and Maru! they choose offense. Yes, it didn't work. But to claim they would have won if they just build a few more turrets is ridiculous.
It is like saying that if the Zerg had burrow banelings at that spot where the Terran didn't scan, they would have won.
On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote: Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row.
These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
But mines also sometimes shoot at 1 ling or they don't get to fire before mutas pick them off. It is not like every mine is always worth it.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
You could for Terran. For Protoss we have six guys who have been running pretty good throughout the year in individual leagues anyway and people used to say Protoss wasn't diverse.
On December 06 2013 23:54 shadymmj wrote: yeah im really, really trying to steer this away from a balance convo because soulkey i think just demonstrated that he is #1 player, especially what with dear and pvp volatility.
but i see lots of marines, huge numbers melting to banes throughout when not microed at tip-top level. not much dying when zerg rushes headlong into minefields, unlike previously when they functioned truly as a minefield should - a death trap.
that's ok though i would LOVE to see tanks become staple again, but a 0.2 attack speed buff, you must be joking...
Yeah, what that match really came down to is how much Soulkey just outplayed Maru.
But Bomber vs Soulkey showed that marine/widow is still strong if microed well. I think maybe it's fair to expect that level of attention and control, in the end it just demands more of the players which is better for the game IMO.
It's much like marine vs lurker in BW... lurkers are great vs marines, unless you're vs Flash.
Well Soulkey admitted yesterday, that his play was poor, measured by his standards. And to my surprise, he really stepped it up to yet another level tonight. Really strong play, nothing you can do against that!
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
But mines also sometimes shoot at 1 ling or they don't get to fire before mutas pick them off. It is not like every mine is always worth it.
and Z learned how to trigger them or make them do friendly fire... idk... lets creat a sad marine / sad WM / sad tan Fan Club T_T
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
Yes this example is exactly my point. Throughout the entire series, Taeja just lured Life into overaggresive situations, and Life never adapted. But that type of defensive oriented playstyle doesn't have any long-lasting chance, because if Taeja continues to play like that against an opponent who doesn't overcommit, then the zerg is free to tech to hive fast, which IMO favors the zerg.
So Taeja used Mines in a way that took advantage of Life's specific weakness - that's kinda it. Mines are used for defensive purposes will over the longer haul proove to be a gimmick as they simply are too supply inefficient. When you play defensive, it is because you expect to have stronger maxed out army than your opponent. At the moment bio + mines doens't provide that. It wouldn't really have worked against Soulkey I believe, as he showed a much better balance between when to defend and when to harass.
Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote: Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row.
These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event.
Ha, I'll definitely concede that this one is the least awesome of those achievements!
I guess I just mean that Maru has had a huge quantum leap in results this year, being in the event is as much as anything a reflection of his success earlier on.
On December 06 2013 23:51 RookUK wrote: Soulkey just looks absolutely bulletproof when he's at his best (ie, usually). He forced so many micro mistakes out of Maru, and given their past history (Soulkey beat Maru twice in the Ro32 before he went on to win WCS Korea S1, and Maru has apparently never won a match against Soulkey) you can understand why he was pretty frightened of this match.
That said, it's still awesome that Maru has reached the semi-final in four top Korean tournaments in a row.
These kind of comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me considering there are only eight players in the Special Event.
Ha, I'll definitely concede that this one is the least awesome of those achievements!
I guess I just mean that Maru has had a huge quantum leap in results this year, being in the event is as much as anything a reflection of his success earlier on.
This is true. Definitely one of the Terran studs for the last year. He was pretty much a lock in several of these Events.
On December 07 2013 00:10 RKC wrote: Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
Would PvZ be his real weak point?
i still think soulkey's ZvT is his weakest, he outplayed maru because maru really didn't look his best. soulkey looks shaky against the top terrans - both his matches against bomber, and consistent losses to bogus. of course it's still very good, but his ZvZ and ZvP winrates are much better. he beat rain 3-0 recently.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
i dno, life and jaedong are pretty up there. it's hard to compare the three since they don't play in the same tournaments that often, but those 3 are the leaders of zerg pretty much.
On December 07 2013 00:10 RKC wrote: Soulkey's TvZ is amazing. So is his ZvZ (consistently beating Life).
But I've got a feeling he might lose to Rain. His ZvP has been shaky. Lost to MC and mauled by Dear in WCS Season 3 Global Finals. Nearly lost to Jim in WCG Finals recently.
Would PvZ be his real weak point?
i still think soulkey's ZvT is his weakest, he outplayed maru because maru really didn't look his best. soulkey looks shaky against the top terrans - both his matches against bomber, and consistent losses to bogus. of course it's still very good, but his ZvZ and ZvP winrates are much better. he beat rain 3-0 recently.
Yes, but does any other Zerg player has a better TvZ record than Soulkey (against the top Terrans)? Jaedong? Life? Scarlett? I still think Soulkey is stronger than them in TvZ.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
Soulkey and Life play in the same league i.e. Korea.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
i think the current balance is a double edged sword, overall i agree with you it is in a good spot - but i can't get rid of the idea that it's mainly because the terran matchups follow a pattern every game:
terran does some early game harass while gaining mapcontrol, if the pressure does damage and the terran has no macro slips we see a balanced mid game in which terran again has to do some sort of damage to get an advantage and might win.
now here's the problem, the best metapher is to use is even in the game right now: tvt mech vs bio, the mech player defends in the early/midgame without taking to much damage, he usually wins (unless some weirdo doom drop goes undetected) - if he doesn't the bio player has a decent shot but still a long way to go
you could say "it's not that hard to do some damage" - but hey, is the offensive "must do damage" part of a flawless game design?
if the terran is the better player he wins, but if some even matched ppl face each other most of the time the z/p wins imho
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
Going down 0-2 to Welmu is a clear indicator of skill though
yeah, and maru went down 0-2 to alive as well. anomalous results happen, life just reverse swept bogus which isn't shabby
look, it really pains me to have to defend life, that dirty startale player, but he is a solid zerg. not on soulkey's level, but he's pretty damn good.
On December 06 2013 23:38 juvenal wrote: Mutas gonna get nerfed pretty soon i guess. Or it could be the WM nerf undone.
Not building any turrets doesn't exactly call for a muta nerf :/
Building 4+ Turrets per base isn't exactly healthy for your army count either.
With how much he was losing to those mutas though I can't help but feel that 4+ turrets per base would have been more cost effective than just saccing stuff.
absolutely, its not the biggest deal to make 10-15 turrets in the long run
Are you serious? Making that many turrets is a HUGE investment. It is like saying that Protoss don't need nexus cannons because if they made 10-15 regular cannons, they would be fine vs drops and aggression in PvT. Making that much static defense before your 3rd get saturated is a big investment.
"in the long run" he's not saying make 10-15 turrets before you get your third saturated, he's saying you should have made 10-15 turrets by the end of a 25 min game (replacing the ones you loose)
More to the point if over multiple raids you're losing several dozen SCVs and literally minutes of mining time you're losing a hell of a lot more value than 10-15 turrets.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
I saw that finals and really didn't think Mines provided anything special. Not in battles at least. Indeed, it shut down a bit of counterharass opportunities by Life, however. But that's easily avoidable as Soulkey showed in this game, by not counterattacking with your entire force at once, but actually splitting it up. So against players of less caliber of Soulkey, Widow Mines may still have some utility at stopping counterattacks, but its only a matter of time before they become oboslete I believe.
e.g. one moment I remember was Life doing a counterattack and 3mines killing all the 34zerglings. (don't know the game/time anymore, sorry); or of course on Yeonsu when Taeja took that third and Life lost most of his mutas to 10mines (stupid play by life, nontheless, mines have quite huge potential still) I really don't think mines need to be stronger, they instagib stuff that's much more worth than they are without getting destroyed. Whether Mutas are too strong or Zerg in general too strong though, after the mine nerf is a different question.
Yes this example is exactly my point. Throughout the entire series, Taeja just lured Life into overaggresive situations, and Life never adapted. But that type of defensive oriented playstyle doesn't have any long-lasting chance, because if Taeja continues to play like that against an opponent who doesn't overcommit, then the zerg is free to tech to hive fast, which IMO favors the zerg.
So Taeja used Mines in a way that took advantage of Life's specific weakness - that's kinda it. Mines are used for defensive purposes will over the longer haul proove to be a gimmick as they simply are too supply inefficient. When you play defensive, it is because you expect to have stronger maxed out army than your opponent. At the moment bio + mines doens't provide that. It wouldn't really have worked against Soulkey I believe, as he showed a much better balance between when to defend and when to harass.
Well, we had this kind of comments from avilo "mines will never work with 2supply" throughout all of the HotS beta. And I'm pretty sure that Taeja didn't just abuse Life's overcommiting style, he'd also have used mines against any other Zerg. With nearly all of them being just weaker than Life.
@vthree: yeah, but detonating isn't dying. Mines also sometimes reload before they get destroyed. Any skirmish a Terran wins there will be mines that probably shoot another time. And I think people really overestimate the minenerf, Zergs were doing quite OK before it in TvZ (so I fully agree that it was stupid to nerf them; just that I believe the real problem lies within lategame dynamics, when a Zerg gains momentum and mass Mutas destroying stuff everywhere just prevent the Terran from ever getting momentum back).
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
Going down 0-2 to Welmu is a clear indicator of skill though
yeah, and maru went down 0-2 to alive as well. anomalous results happen, life just reverse swept bogus which isn't shabby
look, it really pains me to have to defend life, that dirty startale player, but he is a solid zerg. not on soulkey's level, but he's pretty damn good.
To be fair I actually agree with you, it was just funny timing
Right now though, in terms of scary players (not relating to balance, I just think it's how the talent pool is at the moment), I still think it's quite clearly P > T > Z
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Was waiting for you. :D
But I don't know why people are saying that Life is not solid. He maybe isn't as consistent with as Soulkey or Jaedong, but on a good day, he really can beat anyone. I would still place him second if I had to rate him as a Zerg player, first being Soulkey.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
Soulkey has the most WCS points in 2013, making him the first seed in Blizzcon.
And Life has how many?
WCS points is not that great an indicator of skill, especially when you have people like alive and mvp qualifying over more skilled players.
its true, but soulkey collected literally every single point from either WCS KR or WCS season finals, unarguably the 2 hardest tournaments around
also whats your problem with alive here, hes way better than certain other players that were 16th (or higher)
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Any foreign tournament championship doesn't count as legit championship in my eyes. So in my eyes, he's not solid. You can see him as solid as diamond, won't change my mind though.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Was waiting for you. :D
But I don't know why people are saying that Life is not solid. He maybe isn't as consistent with as Soulkey or Jaedong, but on a good day, he really can beat anyone. I would still place him second if I had to rate him as a Zerg player, first being Soulkey.
Any Korean pro on a good day can beat any players. That's how SC2 works.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Any foreign tournament championship doesn't count as legit championship in my eyes. So in my eyes, he's not solid. You can see him as solid as diamond, won't change my mind though.
There are only two things that matter in a tournament: format and competition. Being "foreigner" is irrelevant to the discussion.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Any foreign tournament championship doesn't count as legit championship in my eyes. So in my eyes, he's not solid. You can see him as solid as diamond, won't change my mind though.
Then by definition no player is solid because they've all played in tournaments with foreign players. I mean, all the WCS finals had foreigners play in them. Roughly the same format as many foreign weekend tournaments with (roughly) the same caliber of players.
On December 06 2013 23:46 shadymmj wrote: soulkey is the perfect player, getting better and better
but there is nothing to deny that terran SUCKED after the patch, period. tanks are still not seen as worth building, especially if you leave them abandoned in the middle of the map (cough bomber) lol.
Mines actually seems borderline useless atm. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw them giving the terrans a cost effective engagement. I think it might just be better to not build any at all and instead get Thors as a reponse to mass Mutas.
taeja life dreamhack finals........
Well, as far as I remember he flew in blindly into like 5-6 mines and his mutas were clumped when he attacked the SCVs
LIke the Dear vs Rain series. Dissapointed in Soulkey vs. Maru. Maru was looking like a B-teamer. And can more people complain about the twitch vods which spoil the series! Super annoying!
Well, we had this kind of comments from avilo "mines will never work with 2supply" throughout all of the HotS beta. And I'm pretty sure that Taeja didn't just abuse Life's overcommiting style, he'd also have used mines against any other Zerg. With nearly all of them being just weaker than Life.
That's not what I wrote at all. I was only talking about when they are used defensively. With mines you are incentivized to army-trade quite a lot as your maxed out army isn't very efficienctly. I also think Avilo was talking about using them along with mech, which imo is quite obvious as mech doesn't benefit from armytrading.
So Mines synergize with offensive-oriented play, however, when used defensively it is mostly a gimmick and it has little to none long-term potential. Widow Mines won't be phased out from day1, but they will probably see less and less usage as the game dynamic becomes more developed.
I believe that if terran doesn't adapt to turtlish oriented mech style, then terran W/R in tvz will continue to decline.
During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
wow, did not expect these results. I mean, ya Dear said that Rain will be rough and he is honored to play him but 3-1 for Rain, hmm. As for Maru vs SK, Maru has been on fire recently and I recall reading he beat SK 2-1 or something a while back. Figured it'll be a close 3-2 series but sounds like SK gave Maru quite the fight lol
Good to see Rain bringing it. Dear is damn good, but he really did not show himself to be the undisputed best Protoss/overall player like some people make out.
I like both players, and hope (and indeed expect) them to both have strong 2014s. Protoss needs some damn consistent players ffs :p
On December 07 2013 05:29 BigFan wrote: wow, did not expect these results. I mean, ya Dear said that Rain will be rough and he is honored to play him but 3-1 for Rain, hmm. As for Maru vs SK, Maru has been on fire recently and I recall reading he beat SK 2-1 or something a while back. Figured it'll be a close 3-2 series but sounds like SK gave Maru quite the fight lol
On December 07 2013 05:08 RKC wrote: During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
In results this year maybe. In pure skill based on the games recently, Life's not far behind at all. In fact, I think once code S starts up again he'll return to being the best Zerg. Soulkey only really has him beat in ZvZ, Life is way better in ZvT and ZvP is probably a draw between the two (leaning more Soulkey, if i had to pick one).
On December 07 2013 05:08 RKC wrote: During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
In results this year maybe. In pure skill based on the games recently, Life's not far behind at all. In fact, I think once code S starts up again he'll return to being the best Zerg. Soulkey only really has him beat in ZvZ, Life is way better in ZvT and ZvP is probably a draw between the two (leaning more Soulkey, if i had to pick one).
How is Life is WAY better than SoulKey in other 2 match-ups but still spent half year in Code A. Nonsense.
On December 07 2013 06:21 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On December 07 2013 05:08 RKC wrote: During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
In results this year maybe. In pure skill based on the games recently, Life's not far behind at all. In fact, I think once code S starts up again he'll return to being the best Zerg. Soulkey only really has him beat in ZvZ, Life is way better in ZvT and ZvP is probably a draw between the two (leaning more Soulkey, if i had to pick one).
How is Life is WAY better than SoulKey in other 2 match-ups but still spent half year in Code A. Nonsense.
I can't tell if you're terrible at reading, missed his point or if you would just prefer for Soulkey to be the undisputed best Zerg.
On December 07 2013 05:08 RKC wrote: During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
In results this year maybe. In pure skill based on the games recently, Life's not far behind at all. In fact, I think once code S starts up again he'll return to being the best Zerg. Soulkey only really has him beat in ZvZ, Life is way better in ZvT and ZvP is probably a draw between the two (leaning more Soulkey, if i had to pick one).
Fair enough. They are quite close in terms of potential and their maximum skill ceiling, though I still think Soulkey is a stronger overall player.
But in terms of overall form and results this year, Soulkey takes the cake. No debate for me. The real debate is for 2nd/3rd place - Life or Jaedong?
On December 07 2013 06:21 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On December 07 2013 05:08 RKC wrote: During the interviews (if Tasteless' translation is correct):
1. Rain confidently predicted Soulkey defeating Maru to meet him in the finals (prior to Maru-Soulkey match)
2. Soulkey said he expected a stronger challenge from Rain (after defeating Maru)
And it showed in the matches - Soulkey was the better player today, by quite a stretch. And whilst I can't comment much about his overall strategies in build (I don't play and watch enough to know the current meta), Maru did a good job in multi-tasking and micro-ing, but Soulkey was just a level above. Maru gave close to his best, but it was not enough.
Sure, Soulkey is not unbeatable. He has his off-days, as do any player. But he is the best Zerg, by quite a stretch. Yes, Life had won foreign tourneys - but those were tourneys Soulkey never had a chance to compete in. So we fall back on the tourneys that both were competing in - the 3 WCS tourneys. Life couldn't even make it to the RO8 and Global Finals. Soulkey could (except he missed out on Global Finals in S2). Also, Soulkey did quite well in Proleague (though he kept losing to Inno - but during that time, which Zerg wouldn't?). So putting things into perspective, Soulkey achieved much, much more than Life in 2013.
(Maybe I did suggest or even say that Life isn't a solid Zerg. That may be wrong. Solid or not, Life is currently a level or two below Soulkey - that's my real point. So if Life is solid, Soulkey is super-solid.)
In results this year maybe. In pure skill based on the games recently, Life's not far behind at all. In fact, I think once code S starts up again he'll return to being the best Zerg. Soulkey only really has him beat in ZvZ, Life is way better in ZvT and ZvP is probably a draw between the two (leaning more Soulkey, if i had to pick one).
Fair enough. They are quite close in terms of potential and their maximum skill ceiling, though I still think Soulkey is a stronger overall player.
But in terms of overall form and results this year, Soulkey takes the cake. No debate for me. The real debate is for 2nd/3rd place - Life or Jaedong?
Result wise, Jaedong no doubt. Skill wise, neither.
On December 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote: i truly believe bogus lost the finals and not soulkey winning, and i don't believe zerg is underperforming at all. sure there are probably 3 top zergs compared to maybe 5 top terrans and 4 top protoss, but that's just normal variance.
anyway, whatever. maru has played spectacularly for the second half of the year, and has only lost to the best of the best, and no-one else really. people laud soulkey's straight RO8s but maru's straight RO4s are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh you most certainly could make an argument for the race under performing. Very few have been carrying the torch for the Zerg throughout the whole year.
you could, but i could probably make that same argument for any race. i think sc2 balance is in a very good spot right now.
I'm not talking about balance. All I'm just saying is that currently, there's no real solid Zerg player, except Soulkey. Being heads above the rest in a race that forms 1/3 of a game is an achievement, and a testament of his skill.
life would like to have a talk with you
He's not solid for almost a year already.
You're right, he has only won 3(4) championships this year and placed second in a fourth. Not very solid at all unfortunately,
Was waiting for you. :D
But I don't know why people are saying that Life is not solid. He maybe isn't as consistent with as Soulkey or Jaedong, but on a good day, he really can beat anyone. I would still place him second if I had to rate him as a Zerg player, first being Soulkey.
Any Korean pro on a good day can beat any players. That's how SC2 works.
That isn't true at all. Skill matters a lot in this game, you can clearly see the difference between someone like Soulkey, and someone like Leenock, since Leenock has been underperforming a lot since the beginning of HotS. And no, I don't think that someone like Creator for example can beat Soulkey even on his best day in Bo3 or Bo5 series.
On December 07 2013 07:31 Dodgin wrote: WJS better find a way for Soulkey to play in PL, cause at this rate It's going to be PL without the top 3 zergs...
EPT
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Rain vs. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CGqGCOi.png)
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Soulkey![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
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vs the best 
of this year.
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