I think the biggest story of this matchup is whether soulkey vs innovation happens tonight. They're both the ace players of their teams pretty much, innovation moreso than soulkey. Will they have a gameplan prepared for a potential proleague match so they don't give away any builds for the finals on saturday? No idea but I'm excited.
That would be a cool scenario. However, I think those are some bold predictions... Last beating free? Trap beating sOs? Light beating Trap is possible because Woongjin OP.
Honestly, I think INnoVation will have to carry STX SouL against Woongjin... Woongjin's line-up is so scary. free, sOs, ZerO, Soulkey... each of those players is, in my opinion, better than everyone in STX SouL except INnoVation himself.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
no what he's saying is that the proleague games tonight will no matter what be better than WCS EU, despite the fact that proleague games tend to be more about studying your opponents and doing builds that are designed to kill them on specific maps, usually. It's totally biased as the WCS EU finals games were really good and he's (I THINK) saying that tonight's proleague games are better even though they haven't happened yet
is this lagging/skipping every 3 seconds for anyone else? I mean im assuming just because it's a match between two top tier teams so there has to be a surplus of viewers. Anyone have the korean stream link please?
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
Dude, we just saw a guy die to a proxy 2 gate literally one foot outside of his base.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
Dude, we just saw a guy die to a proxy 2 gate literally one foot outside of his base.
Those were the highest level mind games you've ever seen. Your mind is so fucked you cant even comprehend that proxy
On May 28 2013 14:53 Benzzro wrote: Lol commentators, "In the lategame the advantage is nullified". Sigh
At 200/200 it is true bro
Lategame doesn't mean 200/200. But it still isn't true, the person that had the lead early game is going to have earlier upgrades and a bigger bank
Well the advantage obviously isn't fully nullified, but it does certainly give your opponent the opportunity to catch up. If you sit on 200/200 too long and allow your opponent to build his army with equal upgrades, it will be a lot more even than attacking at 150 vs 100. Having a bank doesn't necessarily mean you will win either. Just look at Dimaga vs Mvp Game 2 from WCS EU Ro4.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
Dude, we just saw a guy die to a proxy 2 gate literally one foot outside of his base.
Those were the highest level mind games you've ever seen. Your mind is so fucked you cant even comprehend that proxy
On May 28 2013 14:53 Benzzro wrote: Lol commentators, "In the lategame the advantage is nullified". Sigh
At 200/200 it is true bro
Lategame doesn't mean 200/200. But it still isn't true, the person that had the lead early game is going to have earlier upgrades and a bigger bank
Well the advantage obviously isn't fully nullified, but it does certainly give your opponent the opportunity to catch up. If you sit on 200/200 too long and allow your opponent to build his army with equal upgrades, it will be a lot more even than attacking at 150 vs 100. Having a bank doesn't necessarily mean you will win either. Just look at Dimaga vs Mvp Game 2 from WCS EU Ro4.
I can see what you mean, but a good player won't just sit there on 200/200 and let the opponent catch up. Having a bank matters a lot in pvp as long as you engage right and don't have your army completely destroyed. If you trade evenly it's almost an insta win for the guy with the bigger bank, and you're almost always going to AT LEAST trade evenly with better upgrades. I'm simply quoting the casters because they made it sound like you should always attack straight away when you have a lead which is horrible advice. Look at rain vs zest yesterday for example, zest attacked after a small lead then ended up losing.
On May 28 2013 14:40 StickyIcky wrote: 107,000 people watch MVP v Stephano but this hasn't even made a full forum page yet. Hype > Substance.
LOL. A big finals of a month-long event vs a regular season proleague match. While I love proleague a ton, you've gotta be kidding me. Also is the fact that its nearly 2am on the east coast/11pm on the west coast, and like 7am in europe.
Oh and to the guy asking how the proxy worked, literally no scouting at all from dear. He didn't even see the gates I think until after his mothership core was out.
Isn't that exactly what he's saying? hype over substance. More people watched the WCS EU event than proleague because of it was the end of a long tournament. Not really because the matches were better.
no what he's saying is that the proleague games tonight will no matter what be better than WCS EU, despite the fact that proleague games tend to be more about studying your opponents and doing builds that are designed to kill them on specific maps, usually. It's totally biased as the WCS EU finals games were really good and he's (I THINK) saying that tonight's proleague games are better even though they haven't happened yet
This should be more high level games I think. His point about hype > quality is good, even though it is a Little bit obvious.
On May 28 2013 15:20 Dodgin wrote: bring out innobestrtsplayerevervation
Do you think they'd actually play him this close to GSL finals? Asking honestly, no troll...
I think he will play for sure if they are on their last player, every match is super important at this point, one loss can be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.
On May 28 2013 15:20 Dodgin wrote: bring out innobestrtsplayerevervation
Do you think they'd actually play him this close to GSL finals? Asking honestly, no troll...
Sure. The only person won Woongjin Stars has that he doesn't want to show his stuff to is Soulkey.
Neither would Soulkey want to show him his stuff, really... but of course they'll play to win.
Either way, he won't be playing vs a Zerg first off. Just a Protoss player, and from there, whomever is trained to "snipe" him, if any can even do such a thing.
On May 28 2013 15:20 Dodgin wrote: bring out innobestrtsplayerevervation
Do you think they'd actually play him this close to GSL finals? Asking honestly, no troll...
I doubt innovation would request not to be sent just to hide his potential builds for the final. He would look like a giant dick to the rest of the team.
On May 28 2013 15:27 figq wrote: They may need the win, but we need it too. Despite being ahead of KT and SKT, they are catching and we want to avoid any nasty surprises.
Gonna be hilarious if we miss out on the playoffs again despite having the best differential
Stars not coming in first in the regular season would require an epic collapse the likes of which we've never seen before from a top team. I don't see them suddenly losing every match in R6.
On May 28 2013 15:27 figq wrote: They may need the win, but we need it too. Despite being ahead of KT and SKT, they are catching and we want to avoid any nasty surprises.
Gonna be hilarious if we miss out on the playoffs again despite having the best differential
yeah, i would laugh so much that i may drown in my own tears seriously, last seasons were so painful... always the team to miss playoffs in the last match
I wonder what the chance is that innovation doesn't play. I mean they aren't sending out Trap, Last, or Classic. Kind of makes me think that the chance of innovation playing isn't quite 50% but closer to 60%. Anyone agree?
Thank you, too bad there is no possibility for quality switch at youtube stream, only 720+ allowed for me, not a problem for my internet, although am watching the stream while jobbing in a little window in browser :D
On May 28 2013 15:48 Kim Hyuna wrote: so basically, you select viper > pull colo/VR and let hydra roam without micro to win?
Come on man. That's as bad as scrubs saying "derp just a-move collo/void lollolo". Be better than that. Fast hive is a risk, as I'm sure you know. Don't be the lowest common denominator please.
On May 28 2013 16:08 Fig wrote: Why do tosses not just make an oracle?! It would prevent all these ling attacks. You can take your third so much earlier.
Cause oracles has nothing to do with overlords, and overlords becomes as the main target, killing em u preventing zerg from relativly fast scouting
On May 28 2013 16:08 Fig wrote: Why do tosses not just make an oracle?! It would prevent all these ling attacks. You can take your third so much earlier.
Cause oracles has nothing to do with overlords, and overlords becomes as the main target, killing em u preventing zerg from relativly fast scouting
You can make one oracle and still have plenty of phoenix/voids to kill ovies. Seems like these tosses forget you can make more than one unit out of the stargate.
On May 28 2013 16:08 Fig wrote: Why do tosses not just make an oracle?! It would prevent all these ling attacks. You can take your third so much earlier.
Cause oracles has nothing to do with overlords, and overlords becomes as the main target, killing em u preventing zerg from relativly fast scouting
You can make one oracle and still have plenty of phoenix/voids to kill ovies. Seems like these tosses forget you can make more than one unit out of the stargate.
It's all about timings, it would be a big loss if u won't make your oracle cost-efficient, huge investment in early stargate units that makes zero damage will affect your midgame so much. And it's pretty hard to deal with hydra/roach timing using stargate units only.
Why didn't sOs destroy hyvaa's fourth with his whole army? Wouldn't have taken very long and wouldn't the position have been fine to deal with hyvaa's main army?
Swarm host/corruptor/infestor is utterly, utterly boring. Regardless of any balance issues, hyvaa has been functionally dead in this game for the last 5 (ingame) minutes and kept in the game by energy and free units.
On May 28 2013 16:25 oGsTrueSmug wrote: Swarm host/corruptor/infestor is utterly, utterly boring. Regardless of any balance issues, hyvaa has been functionally dead in this game for the last 5 (ingame) minutes and kept in the game by energy and free units.
Lose your soul when you play it. Can't win without it.
On May 28 2013 16:08 Fig wrote: Why do tosses not just make an oracle?! It would prevent all these ling attacks. You can take your third so much earlier.
Cause oracles has nothing to do with overlords, and overlords becomes as the main target, killing em u preventing zerg from relativly fast scouting
You can make one oracle and still have plenty of phoenix/voids to kill ovies. Seems like these tosses forget you can make more than one unit out of the stargate.
It's all about timings, it would be a big loss if u won't make your oracle cost-efficient, huge investment in early stargate units that makes zero damage will affect your midgame so much. And it's pretty hard to deal with hydra/roach timing using stargate units only.
This is actually a common misconception. Your oracle might be able to do some good damage, but even if it is completely shut down by static defense, you just bring it home and use it to defend a super early third. No amount of speedlings can kill a building third with an oracle over it. That is how it can be cost-efficient without getting a single worker kill. And with that economy advantage vs zerg you can go any tech from there.
On May 28 2013 16:25 oGsTrueSmug wrote: Swarm host/corruptor/infestor is utterly, utterly boring. Regardless of any balance issues, hyvaa has been functionally dead in this game for the last 5 (ingame) minutes and kept in the game by energy and free units.
SH/Corr/infest is boring (because very campy) whereas SH/Hydra/viper/corruptor/utra is very fun and cool, very agressive and moving a lot !
This is such a crappy situation for Woongjin. sOs HAS to win.
If not, WJS has to field another player, and if they field a Zerg they are potentially giving away the strategies that Soulkey has been practicing to beat Innovation in the Code S finals.
I have never tried the english youtube stream before but I am now watching 720p without any lag whatsoever. I quite often find myself lagging on 480p on a lot of twitch streams lately.
On May 28 2013 16:50 lichter wrote: I can't understand what's happening lol
sOs pushed bogus back with a chargelot storm archon and was planning to flank him at his third with a 2 zealot 2 ht run by. Just as he forced bogus' army into his nat, he made an a-move into bogus' third, but his zealots peeled off and he lost 20. a drop turned into a flank and killed his ht which had no more support.
On May 28 2013 16:57 Dodgin wrote: like 3 or 4 of his colossus were attacking a orbital command and his melee based zealot/archon army was being filtered through a choke point
what in the world was that attack
sOs is a smart tricky player. His tactical execution is still lacking though.
3 Colossi attacking an OC, EMPs on literally every single archon and zealot, and a 40 supply lead... and SNM still talking the fight up like a close thing. Innovation doesn't need any more hype fellas.
Soulkey could just use some random all in that won't really show much before the finals, it might even make Innovation prepare more for something he won't face.
On May 28 2013 17:22 oGsTrueSmug wrote: I will laugh my arse off if we end up not getting this "preview" now.
Would serve them right for calling out a match before the guy is even sent out, it's entirely possible SK won't get sent out. GSL finals much more important then this
no reason for woongjin to send out soulkey here. they're basically locked into proleague top spot. in fact, they should send out zero to try to glean as much info as possible from bogus' TvZ
There's not a new zerg strat we don't know that SK could dish out in the next game. I haven't seen any revolutionary zerg strats in the several months, especially considering the new zerg units are midgame and lategame. There's no need to "hide" SK's play.
Tbh it's pretty stupid to put Soulkey next. If he loses, not only he brings team a loss, he also gets some unnecessary mental block for the WCS finals. He has like a double pressure now.
I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
On May 28 2013 17:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: Tbh is pretty stupid to put Soulkey next. If he loses, not only he brings team a loss, he also gets some unnecessary mental block for the WCS finals. He has like a double pressure now.
Stupid? He's the ace player. Pro League wins are the Kespa teams main priority. GSL and other individual leagues come second.
On May 28 2013 17:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: Tbh it's pretty stupid to put Soulkey next. If he loses, not only he brings team a loss, he also gets some unnecessary mental block for the WCS finals. He has like a double pressure now.
Doesn't that work the other way too? It's a high-risk, high-reward play. Maybe he can get into Innovations head before the finals.
On May 28 2013 17:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: Tbh it's pretty stupid to put Soulkey next. If he loses, not only he brings team a loss, he also gets some unnecessary mental block for the WCS finals. He has like a double pressure now.
he might win though. i expect early aggression from soulkey
On May 28 2013 17:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: Tbh it's pretty stupid to put Soulkey next. If he loses, not only he brings team a loss, he also gets some unnecessary mental block for the WCS finals. He has like a double pressure now.
and if he wins? i mean i can see some arguments against sending out SK but you also have to think about sponsors and fans. don't think sponsors will be happy to see a team not sending out their best player so he can perhaps hide his strat or something for a separate tournament. also this preview match is, overall, probably good for esports
On May 28 2013 17:33 Rainfall7711 wrote: I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
It doesn't have a specific build - it can be specific tendencies in play, or specific tendencies on a specific map. I recall some B-teamer (M18M?) taking out Flash with a clever cheese exploiting Flash's scan patterns. These KeSPA guys know how to analyse and how to prepare - anything can give one player or another and advantage, and they're very careful not to give advantages away.
On another note; people are so quick to forget players, it's kind of insane. If Innovation goes out in the Ro32 next season, he'll be forgotten and off the best player-list in a month.
On May 28 2013 17:33 Rainfall7711 wrote: I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
It doesn't have a specific build - it can be specific tendencies in play, or specific tendencies on a specific map. I recall some B-teamer (M18M?) taking out Flash with a clever cheese exploiting Flash's scan patterns. These KeSPA guys know how to analyse and how to prepare - anything can give one player or another and advantage, and they're very careful not to give advantages away.
On another note; people are so quick to forget players, it's kind of insane. If Innovation goes out in the Ro32 next season, he'll be forgotten and off the best player-list in a month.
Yeah tell me about it, I mean it wasn't too long ago when everyone was jizzing their pants over Life. Now that he dropped out of the Ro16 and got destroyed by Innovation he got relatively forgotten. :p
On May 28 2013 17:33 Rainfall7711 wrote: I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
It doesn't have a specific build - it can be specific tendencies in play, or specific tendencies on a specific map. I recall some B-teamer (M18M?) taking out Flash with a clever cheese exploiting Flash's scan patterns. These KeSPA guys know how to analyse and how to prepare - anything can give one player or another and advantage, and they're very careful not to give advantages away.
On another note; people are so quick to forget players, it's kind of insane. If Innovation goes out in the Ro32 next season, he'll be forgotten and off the best player-list in a month.
On May 28 2013 17:33 Rainfall7711 wrote: I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
It doesn't have a specific build - it can be specific tendencies in play, or specific tendencies on a specific map. I recall some B-teamer (M18M?) taking out Flash with a clever cheese exploiting Flash's scan patterns. These KeSPA guys know how to analyse and how to prepare - anything can give one player or another and advantage, and they're very careful not to give advantages away.
On another note; people are so quick to forget players, it's kind of insane. If Innovation goes out in the Ro32 next season, he'll be forgotten and off the best player-list in a month.
Yeah tell me about it, I mean it wasn't too long ago when everyone was jizzing their pants over Life. Now that he dropped out of the Ro16 and got destroyed by Innovation he go relatively forgotten. :p
I'll be laughing my ass off next season if Life goes on to win and everyone goes "Holy shit, no one is even close to Life" - it doesn't matter if it's actually true or not, the opinions on the whole "best player"-thing switch so fast the title becomes meaningless.
On May 28 2013 17:33 Rainfall7711 wrote: I don't understand this hiding builds stuff. I don't understand how they are going to have this 100% secret amazing build never seen before, and then use it in this match. Also the all ins for Zerg are kind of all documented anyway, with some variation.
Just baffled by the hiding builds subject really. Maybe someone can explain why 1 map against each other will have any baring on the GSL finals.
It doesn't have a specific build - it can be specific tendencies in play, or specific tendencies on a specific map. I recall some B-teamer (M18M?) taking out Flash with a clever cheese exploiting Flash's scan patterns. These KeSPA guys know how to analyse and how to prepare - anything can give one player or another and advantage, and they're very careful not to give advantages away.
On another note; people are so quick to forget players, it's kind of insane. If Innovation goes out in the Ro32 next season, he'll be forgotten and off the best player-list in a month.
Yeah tell me about it, I mean it wasn't too long ago when everyone was jizzing their pants over Life. Now that he dropped out of the Ro16 and got destroyed by Innovation he go relatively forgotten. :p
I'll be laughing my ass off next season if Life goes on to win and everyone goes "Holy shit, no one is even close to Life" - it doesn't matter if it's actually true or not, the opinions on the whole "best player"-thing switch so fast the title becomes meaningless.
It had meaning when Mvp was winning and when Life was winning. They both had legitimate long term runs and held onto that title for a long time. But then there were like 2 week periods where everyone kept telling me MKP was the besttoo.
holy shit that game was impressive from both players but more so from innovation towards the end Even more hyped for the code S finals now holy shit that was an awesome game.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
On May 28 2013 17:51 slowbacontron wrote: How to beat Innovation?!?!?!?!?! ;_;;;;;;; I dun know
Endless marine rally with decent splitting, extreme dropping everywhere and widow mine / medivac support. Thats the stuff zergs nightmares are made of.
WP Mr. Innovation. See you in the finals.
Edit: Patch 2.0.9 Balance changes Terran - Units controlled by Innovation have -20% movementspeed and damage.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
more zerg favored than stuck on 2-2 and no hive vs 3-3 bio+mine I mean
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
It's funny how casters have been saying since Whirlwind first appeared in GSL that it's Zerg favoured when in reality it was 50/50 since WoL and broodlord infestors.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
more zerg favored than stuck on 2-2 and no hive vs 3-3 bio+mine I mean
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
more zerg favored than stuck on 2-2 and no hive vs 3-3 bio+mine I mean
there is no zerg favored phase in the game on whirlwind, soulkey needed to deny the 4th but couldnt, also needed to snipe more medivacs
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
It's funny how casters have been saying since Whirlwind first appeared in GSL that it's Zerg favoured when in reality it was 50/50 since WoL and broodlord infestors.
It's one of the favourite zerg map and if you can't win on your map, the series will be hard.
If anything, that made me more hyped for the GSL Finals than I was before these two played each other today. It makes me want to buy a plane ticket to Korea and watch it live. :p
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey are arguably the best right now.
Stars SKT KT STX playoffs looking more likely by the week, the other teams don't have the super aces required to stand up to flash/rain/sos/soulkey/bogus.
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
I liked the changes both players made to their games from the previous SPL match they played. This time the roles were reversed in the mid-game with Soulkey being the aggressor and INnoVation the defender. In each game the defender won in the later game. Each player has such good defense that I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a series of games going into the late late game. So much hype!
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is the best KeSPA protoss, without a doubt. Flash is the second best terran right now behind Innovation. Innovation is the best KeSPA player overall as of now. Soulkey is the best KeSPA zerg.
I really don't know if ultras are really an answer to late game tvz. they open such drop potential... I really liked Stephano's +3 mutas, in WCS finals... Of course Soulkey still is on another level, but its just the transition into hive tech against a non stop flow of units is just so hard to pull offf.
On May 28 2013 17:57 styLesdavis wrote: LiquidTLO just seconds ago in Twitter: "If I could not get Bogus in the 1st round at the WCS Grandslam, that be nice... #scary"
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
So. I do believe Soulkey will be all-inning at least 4 games in the finals. At least. He lost a macro game on the best zerg map. If Innovation plays that well in WCS finals, I think it might be pretty one-sided...
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is the best KeSPA protoss, without a doubt. Flash is the second best terran right now behind Innovation. Innovation is the best KeSPA player overall as of now. Soulkey is the best KeSPA zerg.
I think sOs would like to dispute that claim. He's topped the PL rankings several times and he got to the GSL semis only losing 3-4 to another player in the series that shall never again be named
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is still pretty good
Soulkey, Innovation god tier
hero[join], flash, sOs, Jangbi, Roro, TY, Zest top tier
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
Parting is doing great too, maybe not as much as the others but not very far.
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
Flying, goddammit
Nah, I wouldn't rate him that high. Remember that Parting's on a Kespa team as well and Parting is better than Flying easily.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
It's funny how casters have been saying since Whirlwind first appeared in GSL that it's Zerg favoured when in reality it was 50/50 since WoL and broodlord infestors.
It's one of the favourite zerg map and if you can't win on your map, the series will be hard.
Innovation likes greedy opening into 4 base rally-push with multiple drops. Against this style you need to allin early or you are playing from behind. On Whirwind your allin collection is really limited, only some nydus play comes to mind. And still some casters ( Tasteless) and players think this map is zerg favored against Innovation ... face palm-worthy assumption
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
Flying, goddammit
When I want someone to take out a foreigner favorite, I'd call Flying. In all other cases, I'd pick Zest and sOs over him.
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is the best KeSPA protoss, without a doubt. Flash is the second best terran right now behind Innovation. Innovation is the best KeSPA player overall as of now. Soulkey is the best KeSPA zerg.
I think sOs would like to dispute that claim. He's topped the PL rankings several times and he got to the GSL semis only losing 3-4 to another player in the series that shall never again be named
Wow that's quite a lot of development since I last followed sc2. Are they the best koreans at the moment, I mean including esf players?
On May 28 2013 18:00 Blargh wrote: So. I do believe Soulkey will be all-inning at least 4 games in the finals. At least. He lost a macro game on the best zerg map. If Innovation plays that well in WCS finals, I think it might be pretty one-sided...
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
They're up there. I'd say Soulkey, Innovation, Flash, Rain and another player (RorO, sOs, Zest - one of these three, probably sOs) are the five top players on KeSPA teams currently.
Flying, goddammit
When I want someone to take out a foreigner favorite, I'd call Flying. In all other cases, I'd pick Zest and sOs over him.
But Flying is such a wacky bastard. I thought we all loved those kinds of players
I thought Zest was considered one of the PL only guys?
On May 28 2013 18:00 Blargh wrote: So. I do believe Soulkey will be all-inning at least 4 games in the finals. At least. He lost a macro game on the best zerg map. If Innovation plays that well in WCS finals, I think it might be pretty one-sided...
nahh, if you knew Soulkey from BW, you would knew he (almost) never cheesed , he doesnt really likes allins, in BW he was never afraid of Flash he was constantly saying he wanted to play against Flash. Even if he lose today he is no afraid of Innovation he is going full macro at the finals.
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is the best KeSPA protoss, without a doubt. Flash is the second best terran right now behind Innovation. Innovation is the best KeSPA player overall as of now. Soulkey is the best KeSPA zerg.
I think sOs would like to dispute that claim. He's topped the PL rankings several times and he got to the GSL semis only losing 3-4 to another player in the series that shall never again be named
Wow that's quite a lot of development since I last followed sc2. Are they the best koreans at the moment, I mean including esf players?
On May 28 2013 18:00 Blargh wrote: So. I do believe Soulkey will be all-inning at least 4 games in the finals. At least. He lost a macro game on the best zerg map. If Innovation plays that well in WCS finals, I think it might be pretty one-sided...
nahh, if you knew Soulkey from BW, you would knew he never cheesed, he doesnt really liked allins, in BW he was never afraid of Flash he was constantly saying he wanted to play against Flash. Even if he lose today he is no afraid of Innovation he is going full macro at the finals.
Soulkey cheesed (speedling all in) Flash out of their respective last BW games yo
On May 28 2013 17:56 S:klogW wrote: Quick question? Who are the best in sc2 among exbroodwar players? What happened to early favorites like Rain and Flash
Rain is the best KeSPA protoss, without a doubt. Flash is the second best terran right now behind Innovation. Innovation is the best KeSPA player overall as of now. Soulkey is the best KeSPA zerg.
I think sOs would like to dispute that claim. He's topped the PL rankings several times and he got to the GSL semis only losing 3-4 to another player in the series that shall never again be named
Wow that's quite a lot of development since I last followed sc2. Are they the best koreans at the moment, I mean including esf players?
I would say so, yeah. Symbol's always up there at the moment and I know I say this a lot but HerO always has the potential to beat up everyone and make them look like scrubs.
On May 28 2013 17:51 Dodgin wrote: soulkey almost survived to the part of the game where it becomes zerg favored with the ultra + queen + infestor comp, so close yet so far away.
Don't think that's zerg favored at all unless it's on a smaller map. On whirlwind no way would that ever be zerg favored.
It's funny how casters have been saying since Whirlwind first appeared in GSL that it's Zerg favoured when in reality it was 50/50 since WoL and broodlord infestors.
It's one of the favourite zerg map and if you can't win on your map, the series will be hard.
Innovation likes greedy opening into 4 base rally-push with multiple drops. Against this style you need to allin early or you are playing from behind. On Whirwind your allin collection is really limited, only some nydus play comes to mind. And still some casters ( Tasteless) and players think this map is zerg favored against Innovation ... face palm-worthy assumption
You should not use Innovation as a gauge for map balance... The common veto for zerg I think is Akilon Waste with that easy 4th for terran. Also, the fourth in Whirlwind is harder to secure than in Akilon if you play standard muta/ling. Tasteless is correct.
On May 28 2013 17:54 Wegandi wrote: Innovation reminds me of MMA when he was in his prime in the TvZ MU. He's on fire.
Innovation's way better than MMA ever was though.
Sure, but in terms of dominance...not quite. The reason I brought up MMA is because him and innovation play very similar in the TvZ back when MMA was godly in the MU.
30-8 against the top zergs of the day, and we can't forget his insane multi-task at the time which again, compares to Innovation. Anyways, if I was a Zerg I would not play Innovation in a straight macro game.
On May 28 2013 17:54 Wegandi wrote: Innovation reminds me of MMA when he was in his prime in the TvZ MU. He's on fire.
Innovation's way better than MMA ever was though.
Sure, but in terms of dominance...not quite. The reason I brought up MMA is because him and innovation play very similar in the TvZ back when MMA was godly in the MU.
30-8 against the top zergs of the day, and we can't forget his insane multi-task at the time which again, compares to Innovation. Anyways, if I was a Zerg I would not play Innovation in a straight macro game.
Also, Innovation has mines, MMA had tanks. The latter was a lot more demanding...
best koreans, best kespa. why not just say best period flash innovation rain and soulkey are the strongest four by a pretty wide margin baby is very good, i also saw some recent proleague games where bisu and fantasy started showing some progress.
On May 28 2013 17:54 Wegandi wrote: Innovation reminds me of MMA when he was in his prime in the TvZ MU. He's on fire.
Innovation's way better than MMA ever was though.
Sure, but in terms of dominance...not quite. The reason I brought up MMA is because him and innovation play very similar in the TvZ back when MMA was godly in the MU.
30-8 against the top zergs of the day, and we can't forget his insane multi-task at the time which again, compares to Innovation. Anyways, if I was a Zerg I would not play Innovation in a straight macro game.
Also, Innovation has mines, MMA had tanks. The latter was a lot more demanding...
On May 28 2013 18:11 intmastad wrote: Mma? Lol mvp? Lol since kespa switch in to sc2 there is no chance to esf players mma had great multitasking lol he is code b level in korea
Do you have any reading comprehension? Serious question.
On May 28 2013 18:11 intmastad wrote: Mma? Lol mvp? Lol since kespa switch in to sc2 there is no chance to esf players mma had great multitasking lol he is code b level in korea
They are talking about PLAYSTYLE and RECORD, not skill, genius.
On May 28 2013 18:10 Marshall_D wrote: best koreans, best kespa. why not just say best period flash innovation rain and soulkey are the strongest four by a pretty wide margin baby is very good, i also saw some recent proleague games where bisu and fantasy started showing some progress.
I don't think Fantasy is improving at the same rate as the other top players, It's really sad to see. He loses or only gets 1 kill in every match this round.
On May 28 2013 18:11 intmastad wrote: Mma? Lol mvp? Lol since kespa switch in to sc2 there is no chance to esf players mma had great multitasking lol he is code b level in korea
Do you have any reading comprehension? Serious question.
You see how next to intmastad's name it says South Korea. There's a slim chance that English is his second language.
On May 28 2013 18:10 Marshall_D wrote: best koreans, best kespa. why not just say best period flash innovation rain and soulkey are the strongest four by a pretty wide margin baby is very good, i also saw some recent proleague games where bisu and fantasy started showing some progress.
I don't think Fantasy is improving at the same rate as the other top players, It's really sad to see. He loses or only gets 1 kill in every match this round.
Fantasy was looking extremely promising early on, and made Code S as well. He still seem to have macro flubs, among other things. But he's probably still the Terran that I could see joining the ranks of Flash and INnoVation.
On May 28 2013 17:59 Douillos wrote: I really don't know if ultras are really an answer to late game tvz. they open such drop potential... I really liked Stephano's +3 mutas, in WCS finals... Of course Soulkey still is on another level, but its just the transition into hive tech against a non stop flow of units is just so hard to pull offf.
You have to get some ultralisk at least to tank the sot of the mine (+queen to heal them), but I agree, if there is a solution Mutalisk is the key.
On May 28 2013 17:59 Douillos wrote: I really don't know if ultras are really an answer to late game tvz. they open such drop potential... I really liked Stephano's +3 mutas, in WCS finals... Of course Soulkey still is on another level, but its just the transition into hive tech against a non stop flow of units is just so hard to pull offf.
You have to get some ultralisk at least to tank the sot of the mine (+queen to heal them), but I agree, if there is a solution Mutalisk is the key.
The problem is even 3-3 Mutalisks don't trade well at all against Marines for their cost. While the Mutalisks could keep you safe from drops, you are still weak to a frontal push.
If sc2 guilds can't manage to beat the Innovation boss at the end of the STX instance Blizzard might end up applying a -5% to all Innovation army stats, stacking up every round of proleague untill someone can get the loot :o
soulkey shows alot of potentiial, some decision making failures costhim this game and ofcourse some good decisionmaking from innovationwon him the game
On May 28 2013 18:10 Marshall_D wrote: best koreans, best kespa. why not just say best period flash innovation rain and soulkey are the strongest four by a pretty wide margin baby is very good, i also saw some recent proleague games where bisu and fantasy started showing some progress.
I don't think Fantasy is improving at the same rate as the other top players, It's really sad to see. He loses or only gets 1 kill in every match this round.
fantasy's career started off with such a bang being wacky/innovative to have early OSL success that people overlook that he steadily got better and better overtime to be the best bw player in the world at the end. Give him some time, he'll come through
zero is the one that seems to drop off the radar a bit for me. Zero and soulkey used to be a delicious zerg sundae together, now soulkey pulled ahead.
On May 28 2013 17:59 Douillos wrote: I really don't know if ultras are really an answer to late game tvz. they open such drop potential... I really liked Stephano's +3 mutas, in WCS finals... Of course Soulkey still is on another level, but its just the transition into hive tech against a non stop flow of units is just so hard to pull offf.
You have to get some ultralisk at least to tank the sot of the mine (+queen to heal them), but I agree, if there is a solution Mutalisk is the key.
Mutalisk remain important but focussing so much on upgrades seems poor to me, they don't scale that well from upgrades anway.
I still expect the medivac to get a very tiny nerf in the future, just a slightly higher cooldown on the boost for example.
Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
On May 29 2013 02:48 Dreamer.T wrote: Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
how can you make that comparison? Two completely different games and styles.
On May 29 2013 02:48 Dreamer.T wrote: Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
how can you make that comparison? Two completely different games and styles.
and time period...but i'm kinda confused
now amount of sc2 games played in a span of a year is like 3x of bw, does 6 months of sc2 domination = 1 year of bw domination? how do we compare?
flash dominated for years...no one has done this in sc2, mvp being closest but not really
Just watched Innovation vs Soulkey. I must say that it felt very difficult for Soulkey to win straight up against Innovation in "throw unlimited waves of bio-mines at you" mode. I was impressed by Soulkey's multitasking, macro and all that, he didn't make very many mistakes (maybe that ultra den placement? probably quite key actually :/), but it didn't feel like Innovation was in danger at any point in the game. Soulkey will probably have to prepare some more trick builds to win the finals and not rely exclusively on straight up macro muta-banes.
On another note, Blizzard really did a great job with the matchup, it's very cool to watch, it's dynamic, multitask and micro based, regardless of balance. I don't think many Terrans can do what Innovation is doing anyway (Flash for example does it too, but less well :D), but not many Zergs can defend like Soulkey either, so I don't really know where the matchup is right now balance-wise :/
Edit: Oh, and obviously, Innovation is a god. Forgot the obligatory mention. What a player :D
On May 29 2013 02:48 Dreamer.T wrote: Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
how can you make that comparison? Two completely different games and styles.
and time period...but i'm kinda confused
now amount of sc2 games played in a span of a year is like 3x of bw, does 6 months of sc2 domination = 1 year of bw domination? how do we compare?
flash dominated for years...no one has done this in sc2, mvp being closest but not really
This is actually a fair point. With Proleague and regular WCS seasons on top of possible foreign events (MLG for KeSPA players, MLG + everything else for non-KeSPA players), there are a whole lot more games to play for the players, and much more material to study for their opponents. People say SC2 is much more volatile than BW, and the scene has certainly been, but I feel inclined to believe the sheer volume of games played for top players is a major factor, as well.
I doubt SK vs Innovation would be a roll over. Very close series. Why? A PL game means absolutely nothing. I recall the match CJ vs KT, where Flash completely rolled effOrt and his entire team and people were claiming that this was going to be an easy win for Flash, well he lost 3-2.
Innovation has an incredible TvZ, but I'm sure there's holes within his match up. WJS has pretty good TvZers for SK to practice with including Light who was a tvz specialist in bw. That being said, I still feel Innovation takes it.
to be fair, effort exploited flash's early MM movements with large early ling pressure. if they played the series again the day after flash would have 3-0'd because you can't use the same trick against flash twice.
On May 29 2013 05:07 Marshall_D wrote: to be fair, effort exploited flash's early MM movements with large early ling pressure. if they played the series again the day after flash would have 3-0'd because you can't use the same trick against flash twice.
this. and flash basically destroyed his own momentum, not effort. flash won the first two matches in which he obliterated effort. then, for whatever reason (you know, god moves in mysterious ways...), he went for stupid gimmicky all-in builds in games 3 and 4, which effort could handle easily. therefore, flash brought himself into the position in which one single mistake can cost the title - and that is what happened.
Innovation vs Soulkey was really sweet. But IMHO Soulkey needs a few infestors in his mix of units to become more cost effective and to probably reduce medivac count. The latter got totally out of hand which was the beginning of his downfall. There seems room of improvement in this MU which is no surprise after such a short time playing HotS
Soulkey played that as well as anyone could have. He had plenty of chances where this game could easily of went his way it was pretty close. Terran is just too cost efficient and can spread you and pick you apart if terran is that good. Innovation is good at using mauraders to soak up banelings and his splitting is pretty good which turns all those fights in his favor combined with good widow mine usage. Soulkey innovation game looked good both players evenly matched
i'm honestly getting a little bored with innovation cause he plays the same style all the time, even in tvt. i wanna see him do slow mech pushes for once
more edit: can anybody link a vod of inno actually playing mech? i don't remember a single game where he did and it would be very much appreciated
On May 29 2013 06:16 Elroi wrote: So, was that the two best players in the world playing in the last set?
Why, are you disappointed? :D If so your standards are too high for this game I fear :/
I was actually amazed by that game, that's why I was asking if you thought, as I do, that these are the two best players in the world now. :D
I think you're absolutely right. Innovation is the best Terran and Soulkey is the best Zerg. Rain is probably the best Protoss, though it's less clear.
As a Terran, I'm especially impressed by Innovation for how mechanically flawless he seems compared to every other Terran player we've seen in the past. A killing cyborg from the future indeed.
On May 29 2013 06:16 Elroi wrote: So, was that the two best players in the world playing in the last set?
Why, are you disappointed? :D If so your standards are too high for this game I fear :/
I was actually amazed by that game, that's why I was asking if you thought, as I do, that these are the two best players in the world now. :D
I think you're absolutely right. Innovation is the best Terran and Soulkey is the best Zerg. Rain is probably the best Protoss, though it's less clear.
As a Terran, I'm especially impressed by Innovation for how mechanically flawless he seems compared to every other Terran player we've seen in the past. A killing cyborg from the future indeed.
as a kespa fan, i still wouldn't count out life as a contender for best zerg. i think he could've easily advanced from the group of death. he just chose the wrong strategies that day.
as for innovation being best terran, tvz and and maybe tvp perhaps, but i'm not impressed by his tvt at all. i have more respect for ryung's and taeja's tvt until i am shown otherwise. but yeah, those two match ups make him the terran with the best results at this point. as a kespa fan
On May 29 2013 06:16 Elroi wrote: So, was that the two best players in the world playing in the last set?
Why, are you disappointed? :D If so your standards are too high for this game I fear :/
I was actually amazed by that game, that's why I was asking if you thought, as I do, that these are the two best players in the world now. :D
I think you're absolutely right. Innovation is the best Terran and Soulkey is the best Zerg. Rain is probably the best Protoss, though it's less clear.
As a Terran, I'm especially impressed by Innovation for how mechanically flawless he seems compared to every other Terran player we've seen in the past. A killing cyborg from the future indeed.
Innovation has the best mechanics and multitask of any player right now. Basically he just uses that to blunt force trauma his opponent's to death. So far it hasn't even been very close. He does mostly the same things every game--players know what Innovation is going to do--yet he still rolls over everyone. I know people thought that it would be impossible for players to use mechanics alone to overcome opponents like in BW, but Innovation is showing that it is indeed possible.
The only thing about him that is worrying is that he hasn't shown that much strategic diversity or magical game sense, because he hasn't had to. Once people catch up with his mechanics, will he still be as strong a player?
On May 29 2013 02:48 Dreamer.T wrote: Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
how can you make that comparison? Two completely different games and styles.
The fact that the two are dominating, and both play amazing macro games.
On May 29 2013 10:02 theMagus wrote: i'm honestly getting a little bored with innovation cause he plays the same style all the time, even in tvt. i wanna see him do slow mech pushes for once
more edit: can anybody link a vod of inno actually playing mech? i don't remember a single game where he did and it would be very much appreciated
the god's play involved and required super multi-tasking capability.
this is the type of game we love to watch. multi drops multi tasking.
yeah but its tricky and I think even innovation still relies on some luck. If those mutas happen to get a few of those drop ships the game turns over to soulkey. Innovation seems to know where the mutas are at so he drops many places knowing the mutas can never stop them all. A big key though is soulkey has to be cost efficient on baneling hits you cant waste them. Soulkey had chances to kill more scvs then he got.
On May 29 2013 10:02 theMagus wrote: i'm honestly getting a little bored with innovation cause he plays the same style all the time, even in tvt. i wanna see him do slow mech pushes for once
more edit: can anybody link a vod of inno actually playing mech? i don't remember a single game where he did and it would be very much appreciated
the god's play involved and required super multi-tasking capability.
this is the type of game we love to watch. multi drops multi tasking.
if you wanna see super multi-tasking, watch broodwar lol
On May 29 2013 11:09 snakeeyez wrote: yeah but its tricky and I think even innovation still relies on some luck. If those mutas happen to get a few of those drop ships the game turns over to soulkey. Innovation seems to know where the mutas are at so he drops many places knowing the mutas can never stop them all. A big key though is soulkey has to be cost efficient on baneling hits you cant waste them. Soulkey had chances to kill more scvs then he got.
Soulkey botched a lot of runbys, especially in the mid game. He used maybe 12 banelings each time, which is 300 gas each time. He had about 4 failed baneling runbys iirc, maybe more. That money could have been a faster hive, more mutas, or more ultras. Against Innovation you can't waste money like that without getting a good return.
Exactly. Soulkey had his chances, and even missing those I really thought he played a strong game the whole way through. He certainly did not look like inferior to innovation until the very end.
Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
On May 29 2013 06:16 Elroi wrote: So, was that the two best players in the world playing in the last set?
Why, are you disappointed? :D If so your standards are too high for this game I fear :/
I was actually amazed by that game, that's why I was asking if you thought, as I do, that these are the two best players in the world now. :D
I think you're absolutely right. Innovation is the best Terran and Soulkey is the best Zerg. Rain is probably the best Protoss, though it's less clear.
As a Terran, I'm especially impressed by Innovation for how mechanically flawless he seems compared to every other Terran player we've seen in the past. A killing cyborg from the future indeed.
Which is funny, mechanics used to be one of his weaker points. He was always known for his macro.
Was quite an amazing game tbh. Soulkey was doing so well for quite a long time, then all of a sudden Innovation just flicked the switch and went into god mode, showing play that no other terran can match right now and then it was over a few mins later. On that evidence, I'd still give Soulkey a slight chance in the finals, as he looked really good for most of the game, but he'll probably need to mix in and succeed with a couple of all-ins I guess.
On May 29 2013 13:07 BigFan wrote: Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
SK was never at a commanding lead, especially if you look at the supplies. He had a slight lead due to the more bases, but his bling attacks didn't do nearly enough, and he used a ton of lings/blings to kill the 3rd when Innovation had the backup 4th.
On May 29 2013 02:48 Dreamer.T wrote: Jesus christ Innovation. I'm getting nervous about the finals now, I hope he doesn't suddenly run out of steam during that time. He's currently looking like Flash during his prime in BW.
Chill down a little. Don't get me wrong he's playing amazing at the moment on another level than all but the very highest tier, but there is still a lot of mistakes and sub-optimal decision making in his play compared to the level of crisp perfection that was displayed during Flash's prime.
On May 29 2013 06:16 Elroi wrote: So, was that the two best players in the world playing in the last set?
Why, are you disappointed? :D If so your standards are too high for this game I fear :/
I was actually amazed by that game, that's why I was asking if you thought, as I do, that these are the two best players in the world now. :D
I think you're absolutely right. Innovation is the best Terran and Soulkey is the best Zerg. Rain is probably the best Protoss, though it's less clear.
As a Terran, I'm especially impressed by Innovation for how mechanically flawless he seems compared to every other Terran player we've seen in the past. A killing cyborg from the future indeed.
I don't think Soulkey or Rain are the best of their race. Proleague results are hard to judge based off the fact they are BO1. Imo based off how fast the scene changes it is better to just pick three players of each race when talking about the best then just 1.
On May 29 2013 13:07 BigFan wrote: Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
SK was never at a commanding lead, especially if you look at the supplies. He had a slight lead due to the more bases, but his bling attacks didn't do nearly enough, and he used a ton of lings/blings to kill the 3rd when Innovation had the backup 4th.
ya his early bling attacks did nothing but two of them later decimated the SCVs at Innovation's 4th I believe and I think but not 100% sure that they did some damage to his 3rd? For commanding lead -> bolded. Essentially, to me, it felt like Innovation was kept occupied by SK who was controlling game flow and didn't allow Innovation the freedom to just attack at 20 different places as well until the break down. I dunno what happened with SK once he lost his ultra den but he was never the same after XD
On May 29 2013 13:07 BigFan wrote: Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
SK was never at a commanding lead, especially if you look at the supplies. He had a slight lead due to the more bases, but his bling attacks didn't do nearly enough, and he used a ton of lings/blings to kill the 3rd when Innovation had the backup 4th.
ya his early bling attacks did nothing but two of them later decimated the SCVs at Innovation's 4th I believe and I think but not 100% sure that they did some damage to his 3rd? For commanding lead -> bolded. Essentially, to me, it felt like Innovation was kept occupied by SK who was controlling game flow and didn't allow Innovation the freedom to just attack at 20 different places as well until the break down. I dunno what happened with SK once he lost his ultra den but he was never the same after XD
Flash is notorious for sitting back defending then moving out with 'death ball' in SC1. Just because someone is out on the map doesn't necessarily mean they're in a lead. Killing SCV's is not as important as if you were killing probes or drones due to the mule, especially as the game progresses and the Terran has 5+ orbitals. Unless you all ready have an army advantage suiciding banelings to kill SCV's is almost never worth it at that point in the game.
On May 29 2013 13:07 BigFan wrote: Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
SK was never at a commanding lead, especially if you look at the supplies. He had a slight lead due to the more bases, but his bling attacks didn't do nearly enough, and he used a ton of lings/blings to kill the 3rd when Innovation had the backup 4th.
ya his early bling attacks did nothing but two of them later decimated the SCVs at Innovation's 4th I believe and I think but not 100% sure that they did some damage to his 3rd? For commanding lead -> bolded. Essentially, to me, it felt like Innovation was kept occupied by SK who was controlling game flow and didn't allow Innovation the freedom to just attack at 20 different places as well until the break down. I dunno what happened with SK once he lost his ultra den but he was never the same after XD
He had ton bases, but those outlying bases didn't have anything there anyways. He actually fell below innovation in supply at after the attack at the 3rd. The banes at the 4th killed some decent mules/scvs though not all. And he was not on max upgrades, infact he was actually behind as Innovation finished 3-3 well before SK's upgrades.
On May 29 2013 13:07 BigFan wrote: Finally got around to watching Innovation vs SK. Great game. SK looked like he was in a commanding lead because he was up in bases, took out Innovation's third keeping all his mutas alive and then had his 5th I believe. He was at hive already, max upgrades and then he fell apart. Innovation just kept picking him apart. I think what I like about Innovation play is how he's aggressive once he gets his macro going. You constantly see him engage the opponent even when his army is inferior in supply but he almost always manages good trades and his splits are amazing as well. Even when he looks down and out, he still keeps it up. I think SK still has a chance come GSL finals this Saturday but Innovation won't be a walk in the park. Innovation seems to rely on macro and constant aggression so if SK can keep on trying runbys, he'll have a good chance of causing eco damage, slowing him down and possibly taking enough games to win. With all that said, GO INNOVATION GO! :D
SK was never at a commanding lead, especially if you look at the supplies. He had a slight lead due to the more bases, but his bling attacks didn't do nearly enough, and he used a ton of lings/blings to kill the 3rd when Innovation had the backup 4th.
ya his early bling attacks did nothing but two of them later decimated the SCVs at Innovation's 4th I believe and I think but not 100% sure that they did some damage to his 3rd? For commanding lead -> bolded. Essentially, to me, it felt like Innovation was kept occupied by SK who was controlling game flow and didn't allow Innovation the freedom to just attack at 20 different places as well until the break down. I dunno what happened with SK once he lost his ultra den but he was never the same after XD
Flash is notorious for sitting back defending then moving out with 'death ball' in SC1. Just because someone is out on the map doesn't necessarily mean they're in a lead. Killing SCV's is not as important as if you were killing probes or drones due to the mule, especially as the game progresses and the Terran has 5+ orbitals. Unless you all ready have an army advantage suiciding banelings to kill SCV's is almost never worth it at that point in the game.
Important to note that SK started those baneling attacks during the midgame, a few of them failing. Despite being on 4 bases early he wasted a lot of gas on those attacks, delaying his hive, upgrades and ultras. Innovation was on 3 bases going into a 4th so those scvs could be rebuilt easily. Wasting GAS on mineral only units (albeit workers) is rarely worth it in the mid to late game on multiple bases (except vs Zerg, since it is an easy way to larva block someone).
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e8Wd0.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/30/Writers_Icon.png/15px-Writers_Icon.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r9ZH0.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c6/Uk.png)
twitch.tv | ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/36/Kr.png)
youtube![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jiTad.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LBr19.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ufhoR.png)
free <Newkirk Redevelopment Precint> ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l5YZ8.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3wcCS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WdLE8.png)
