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On March 10 2013 02:19 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:12 Derez wrote:On March 10 2013 02:00 Havik_ wrote:On March 10 2013 01:55 Dvriel wrote:On March 10 2013 01:23 dafnay wrote:
medivac boost is such a joke , cant wait for nerfs.
User was warned for this post Code S player vs a lot of foreigners and Code B players...Nerf the koreans for being sooo good...Only because nobody prepares for drops,they are OP???? Really..P players dont even know how to use Oracles..Sending hallu Oracle to help enemy prepare,diyng to widow mine and not realise this is bronze league...Thats why the 4:0... Also not a single Tempest there and so few Oracles... It likely will be nerfed though. Even if its just the energy requirement. Protoss already had to design every build around dealing with drops in WoL without this thing. Ofc a decent build accounts for all options, I don't see an issue with that. Just like every good T build has to be designed to deal with a 4 gate, a colossus timing or oracles. I'm not opposed to changing things but if blizzard approaches hots patching like they did in WoL, we just end up in the same turtlefests. Every effective build that can punish certain greedy styles gets patched out right at the point where players are starting to adapt, leading to even more greed and stale boring gameplay. I think overall blizzard can be quite happy with how HotS held up the first tournament and I think it compares favorably to WoL in terms of viewer experience. Cheesy builds didn't dominate, players that are considered relatively 'equal' in skill played close series and games felt exciting overall. Random thought: I think if casters were more willing to call out bad play for what it really is, instead of pretending every game is the best series ever played, there would be a whole lot less balance discussions in LR threads and on these forums overall. At times I find it extremely disheartening to see casters hyping bad play, and the result is that balance talk becomes a knee jerk reaction because 'the casters said both players played great!'. To be fair Apollo and Tod really pointed out that First wasn't playing his best games in the finals, but it seemed like none in the LR thread heard it because everyone was balance whining.
yeah. Imo they even overdid it at some points. Basically anytime First allowed a medivac unload they made it sound like a big blunder, even if the drop had to pick up again immidiatly or got cleaned up costefficiently.
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On March 10 2013 02:39 Happygreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Sad to see Zerg do so awful but I think that ZvT is actually fine because of the skill discrepancy in the matches. ZvP just seems so ridiculously Protoss favoured though. It is just like WOL only Toss is not only favoured in the mid game but also the late game. Still not enough matches to be sure of this but that is my first impression. Yeah that's why Ret beat First and MC, to make it look as ridiculously protoss favoured as possible I'd caution you to never use specific games to counter general points. He's right in that there are sample size issues, and you're taking them in the wrong direction.
Why are you telling this to me? He's the one drawing conclusions, I'm the one countering them.
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On March 10 2013 02:19 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:12 Derez wrote:On March 10 2013 02:00 Havik_ wrote:On March 10 2013 01:55 Dvriel wrote:On March 10 2013 01:23 dafnay wrote:
medivac boost is such a joke , cant wait for nerfs.
User was warned for this post Code S player vs a lot of foreigners and Code B players...Nerf the koreans for being sooo good...Only because nobody prepares for drops,they are OP???? Really..P players dont even know how to use Oracles..Sending hallu Oracle to help enemy prepare,diyng to widow mine and not realise this is bronze league...Thats why the 4:0... Also not a single Tempest there and so few Oracles... It likely will be nerfed though. Even if its just the energy requirement. Protoss already had to design every build around dealing with drops in WoL without this thing. Ofc a decent build accounts for all options, I don't see an issue with that. Just like every good T build has to be designed to deal with a 4 gate, a colossus timing or oracles. I'm not opposed to changing things but if blizzard approaches hots patching like they did in WoL, we just end up in the same turtlefests. Every effective build that can punish certain greedy styles gets patched out right at the point where players are starting to adapt, leading to even more greed and stale boring gameplay. I think overall blizzard can be quite happy with how HotS held up the first tournament and I think it compares favorably to WoL in terms of viewer experience. Cheesy builds didn't dominate, players that are considered relatively 'equal' in skill played close series and games felt exciting overall. Random thought: I think if casters were more willing to call out bad play for what it really is, instead of pretending every game is the best series ever played, there would be a whole lot less balance discussions in LR threads and on these forums overall. At times I find it extremely disheartening to see casters hyping bad play, and the result is that balance talk becomes a knee jerk reaction because 'the casters said both players played great!'. To be fair Apollo and Tod really pointed out that First wasn't playing his best games in the finals, but it seemed like none in the LR thread heard it because everyone was balance whining.
Yea I understand that, but if you compare SC2 commentary to normal sports commentary, I find normal sports commentary to be much much harsher. Flying 2 oracles into widow mines which your opponent makes every game and one of which you should have seen is pretty much the equivalent of a goalie or a defender giving away the first goal in a soccer match by making a major error. In soccer commentary, the player gets chewed out over making a mistake like that. In SC2 commentary it gets glossed over in order to be able to continue hyping the match up.
It's not something only one or two casters do, and I'm not singling out Tod or Appollo, all casters do it. Just to take another example: yesterday a debate started over if widow mines were OP or not based on the fact that stephano flew a group of 4-5 clumped vipers into them. It's like discussing if banshees are shit based on one of the legendary TheBest's games.
Casters pretty much sell out their actual opinion on the games in order to please the league/tournament they're working for, and all it does is decrease the value of those few actual epic games where both players are equally matched and playing at the maximum of their capacity.
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On March 10 2013 02:40 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:27 Emzeeshady wrote:On March 10 2013 02:19 ES.Genie wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 Derez wrote:On March 10 2013 02:00 Havik_ wrote:On March 10 2013 01:55 Dvriel wrote:On March 10 2013 01:23 dafnay wrote:
medivac boost is such a joke , cant wait for nerfs.
User was warned for this post Code S player vs a lot of foreigners and Code B players...Nerf the koreans for being sooo good...Only because nobody prepares for drops,they are OP???? Really..P players dont even know how to use Oracles..Sending hallu Oracle to help enemy prepare,diyng to widow mine and not realise this is bronze league...Thats why the 4:0... Also not a single Tempest there and so few Oracles... It likely will be nerfed though. Even if its just the energy requirement. Protoss already had to design every build around dealing with drops in WoL without this thing. Ofc a decent build accounts for all options, I don't see an issue with that. Just like every good T build has to be designed to deal with a 4 gate, a colossus timing or oracles. I'm not opposed to changing things but if blizzard approaches hots patching like they did in WoL, we just end up in the same turtlefests. Every effective build that can punish certain greedy styles gets patched out right at the point where players are starting to adapt, leading to even more greed and stale boring gameplay. I think overall blizzard can be quite happy with how HotS held up the first tournament and I think it compares favorably to WoL in terms of viewer experience. Cheesy builds didn't dominate, players that are considered relatively 'equal' in skill played close series and games felt exciting overall. Random thought: I think if casters were more willing to call out bad play for what it really is, instead of pretending every game is the best series ever played, there would be a whole lot less balance discussions in LR threads and on these forums overall. At times I find it extremely disheartening to see casters hyping bad play, and the result is that balance talk becomes a knee jerk reaction because 'the casters said both players played great!'. To be fair Apollo and Tod really pointed out that First wasn't playing his best games in the finals, but it seemed like none in the LR thread heard it because everyone was balance whining. Really? Yoda is Code S and this is a teamkill match. I wouldn't base anything on First losing. Ofcourse we shouldn't, but seems like a lot of people in here don't care about arguments.
These posts. So full of themselves and preemptively defensive where have I seen them before? Oh yeah first 2 years of WoL .
Mana over Ret for SNB?  Successful tournament. Very obvious that atleast Toss and Zerg have a lot of playing to do. Looks like we have potentially a nice balance of cheese with longer games.
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On March 10 2013 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:39 Happygreek wrote:On March 10 2013 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Sad to see Zerg do so awful but I think that ZvT is actually fine because of the skill discrepancy in the matches. ZvP just seems so ridiculously Protoss favoured though. It is just like WOL only Toss is not only favoured in the mid game but also the late game. Still not enough matches to be sure of this but that is my first impression. Yeah that's why Ret beat First and MC, to make it look as ridiculously protoss favoured as possible I'd caution you to never use specific games to counter general points. He's right in that there are sample size issues, and you're taking them in the wrong direction. Why are you telling this to me? He's the one drawing conclusions, I'm the one countering them.
He's presenting an opinion based on what he's seen, with caveats about its validity. That doesn't seem worth your derision, especially when also including badly constructed counterarguments. Even if his opinion had been entirely derived in fact, that counter is deterring the discussion from going anywhere useful by being built on a fallacy.
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to bad that first made alot of mistakes in the finals, but overall very interesting games and much more entertaining than WoL
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On March 10 2013 02:53 Happygreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:39 Happygreek wrote:On March 10 2013 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Sad to see Zerg do so awful but I think that ZvT is actually fine because of the skill discrepancy in the matches. ZvP just seems so ridiculously Protoss favoured though. It is just like WOL only Toss is not only favoured in the mid game but also the late game. Still not enough matches to be sure of this but that is my first impression. Yeah that's why Ret beat First and MC, to make it look as ridiculously protoss favoured as possible I'd caution you to never use specific games to counter general points. He's right in that there are sample size issues, and you're taking them in the wrong direction. Why are you telling this to me? He's the one drawing conclusions, I'm the one countering them. He's presenting an opinion based on what he's seen, with caveats about its validity. That doesn't seem worth your derision, especially when also including badly constructed counterarguments. Even if his opinion had been entirely derived in fact, that counter is deterring the discussion from going anywhere useful by being built on a fallacy.
Argument : this tournament made protoss look ridiculously favored vs zerg, but I need more games to make sure that's right
Counter-argument : this tournament didn't make protoss look ridiculously favored vs zerg, since Ret beat First and MC during its course. I however agree we need more games to make sure what's right.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'm so good at predicting, damn !!!! :D YoDa for the win !
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With the koreans involved (Violet *Golden* vs First Yonghwa MC Parting), that was to be expected. I can't grasp how I'm getting negative feedback for saying what I said...
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Any vods up for the finals yet?
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On March 10 2013 02:43 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:19 ES.Genie wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 Derez wrote:On March 10 2013 02:00 Havik_ wrote:On March 10 2013 01:55 Dvriel wrote:On March 10 2013 01:23 dafnay wrote:
medivac boost is such a joke , cant wait for nerfs.
User was warned for this post Code S player vs a lot of foreigners and Code B players...Nerf the koreans for being sooo good...Only because nobody prepares for drops,they are OP???? Really..P players dont even know how to use Oracles..Sending hallu Oracle to help enemy prepare,diyng to widow mine and not realise this is bronze league...Thats why the 4:0... Also not a single Tempest there and so few Oracles... It likely will be nerfed though. Even if its just the energy requirement. Protoss already had to design every build around dealing with drops in WoL without this thing. Ofc a decent build accounts for all options, I don't see an issue with that. Just like every good T build has to be designed to deal with a 4 gate, a colossus timing or oracles. I'm not opposed to changing things but if blizzard approaches hots patching like they did in WoL, we just end up in the same turtlefests. Every effective build that can punish certain greedy styles gets patched out right at the point where players are starting to adapt, leading to even more greed and stale boring gameplay. I think overall blizzard can be quite happy with how HotS held up the first tournament and I think it compares favorably to WoL in terms of viewer experience. Cheesy builds didn't dominate, players that are considered relatively 'equal' in skill played close series and games felt exciting overall. Random thought: I think if casters were more willing to call out bad play for what it really is, instead of pretending every game is the best series ever played, there would be a whole lot less balance discussions in LR threads and on these forums overall. At times I find it extremely disheartening to see casters hyping bad play, and the result is that balance talk becomes a knee jerk reaction because 'the casters said both players played great!'. To be fair Apollo and Tod really pointed out that First wasn't playing his best games in the finals, but it seemed like none in the LR thread heard it because everyone was balance whining. Yea I understand that, but if you compare SC2 commentary to normal sports commentary, I find normal sports commentary to be much much harsher. Flying 2 oracles into widow mines which your opponent makes every game and one of which you should have seen is pretty much the equivalent of a goalie or a defender giving away the first goal in a soccer match by making a major error. In soccer commentary, the player gets chewed out over making a mistake like that. In SC2 commentary it gets glossed over in order to be able to continue hyping the match up. It's not something only one or two casters do, and I'm not singling out Tod or Appollo, all casters do it. Just to take another example: yesterday a debate started over if widow mines were OP or not based on the fact that stephano flew a group of 4-5 clumped vipers into them. It's like discussing if banshees are shit based on one of the legendary TheBest's games. Casters pretty much sell out their actual opinion on the games in order to please the league/tournament they're working for, and all it does is decrease the value of those few actual epic games where both players are equally matched and playing at the maximum of their capacity.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, if a caster would start criticizing a SC2 player with the same harshness as football/soccer-players, the community would probably eat him alive.
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I remember when people used to believe YoDa would never amount to anything, just a standard no-name Korean. Well look at him now! :D
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On March 10 2013 03:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:53 Happygreek wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:39 Happygreek wrote:On March 10 2013 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2013 02:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Sad to see Zerg do so awful but I think that ZvT is actually fine because of the skill discrepancy in the matches. ZvP just seems so ridiculously Protoss favoured though. It is just like WOL only Toss is not only favoured in the mid game but also the late game. Still not enough matches to be sure of this but that is my first impression. Yeah that's why Ret beat First and MC, to make it look as ridiculously protoss favoured as possible I'd caution you to never use specific games to counter general points. He's right in that there are sample size issues, and you're taking them in the wrong direction. Why are you telling this to me? He's the one drawing conclusions, I'm the one countering them. He's presenting an opinion based on what he's seen, with caveats about its validity. That doesn't seem worth your derision, especially when also including badly constructed counterarguments. Even if his opinion had been entirely derived in fact, that counter is deterring the discussion from going anywhere useful by being built on a fallacy. Argument : this tournament made protoss look ridiculously favored vs zerg, but I need more games to make sure that's right Counter-argument : this tournament didn't make protoss look ridiculously favored vs zerg, since Ret beat First and MC during its course. I however agree we need more games to make sure what's right.
Much better. I do agree with you that we did see enough Zerg success to ascertain that ridiculously is probably over the top.
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On March 10 2013 02:00 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 01:55 Dvriel wrote:On March 10 2013 01:23 dafnay wrote:
medivac boost is such a joke , cant wait for nerfs.
User was warned for this post Code S player vs a lot of foreigners and Code B players...Nerf the koreans for being sooo good...Only because nobody prepares for drops,they are OP???? Really..P players dont even know how to use Oracles..Sending hallu Oracle to help enemy prepare,diyng to widow mine and not realise this is bronze league...Thats why the 4:0... Also not a single Tempest there and so few Oracles... It likely will be nerfed though. Even if its just the energy requirement. Protoss already had to design every build around dealing with drops in WoL without this thing.
That's actually a fairly good point.
I had hoped that the mothership core cannon would help a bit, but mainly that Protoss would find aggressive builds that are so threatening to Terran if they don't defend specifically that it would tone down any kind of fast drop play.
A hard nerf might be needed, but I'd like Protoss players to try more "forcing" type of builds and not their usual "sit back and defend with sentries until colossus" strats. Atm Terran has too much freedom to pick their build and execute it unhindered.
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Congratulations are well deserved to IM for their performance at IEM. Does anyone have an explanation for their ridiculous domination of the competition other than "they're korean"?
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On March 10 2013 03:35 Dr.Sin wrote:
Congratulations are well deserved to IM for their performance at IEM. Does anyone have an explanation for their ridiculous domination of the competition other than "they're korean"?
Edge over the foreigners in terms of skill, edge over the other koreans by being the only team there with multiple players. New game so they can experiment with builds by playing against eachother while freezing out the other koreans, the real competition.
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Kespa players are probably laughing that Yoda won. They could of gone and gotten free money
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On March 10 2013 03:46 Depetrify wrote:
Kespa players are probably laughing that Yoda won. They could of gone and gotten free money
Which kespa player qualified and declined to go ? The only "kespa" player was parting and was eliminated by yoda himself.
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On March 10 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:46 Depetrify wrote:
Kespa players are probably laughing that Yoda won. They could of gone and gotten free money Which kespa player qualified and declined to go ? The only "kespa" player was parting and was eliminated by yoda himself.
Purebred Kespa players generally don't participate in IEM events.
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EPT
