On February 05 2013 21:05 SlixSC wrote: People can complain about mules all they want, Protoss has the tools to avoid these situations, if they don't then yes Terran has an advantage. But let's not get carried away here, Protoss has a 60% win rate in TvP in Korea (january), so if people really think there is some sort of serious imbalance in the matchup, like some appearently do, they should really re-consider who suffers from that imbalance. Again I'm not saying there is imbalance, I don't think so, but to simply ignore all statistics and instead point at one game that was lost by a protoss is ridiculous.
Maybe the terrans who lost didn't do the SCV pull then.
Unless you can prove that this is the case and that pulling scvs somehow increases your win percentage significantly this is nothing but speculation. I don't deal with hypotheticals, I deal with facts.
Well this is hard to find as I don't know any statistics with a winrate for each build/strategy. But from what I've been seeing in GSL, the SCV pull is very likely to have a winrate > 50%. Of course it doesn't mean that it is OP based only on this fact, because it is pulled on certain circumstances, which have influence on its success, but knowing that this in many cases will be pulled when you're behind, or at least when you're not really ahead of your opponent, it makes me think that the terrans should do it all day every day. And this is where I see a problem.
It works due to the surprise factor and is used to punish greedy Protoss. It isn't like the SCV is an uber fighting unit. It just gives the Terran army that extra oomph. Basically all pros are trying to cut every corner they can get away with. So when a Protoss sees a Terran build or just traded armies, they estimate how much army they have (or have left) and how fast they can build. Then they build X amounts of units which they feel can hold the Terran off. As the rest goes to tech/Eco.
The SCV pull punishes the Protoss that did not take into consideration that the SCVs will be part of the attacking force.
And the reason the other races don't do it is because Terran bio army lack meat shields. I think you will see much much less SCVs pulls in HoTS because of hellbats.
who wants to make the thread for tomorrow? I already posted the template with all the names but someone has to add in the maps. They're all revealed on gom now but I dont have enough down time to do it today D:
On February 05 2013 22:41 Noocta wrote: Why are today liquibets 0 points again ?
I think they have to give people like 24 hours notice to make them worth points. Might be more time or less but I'm pretty sure it has to do with that.
On February 05 2013 21:05 SlixSC wrote: People can complain about mules all they want, Protoss has the tools to avoid these situations, if they don't then yes Terran has an advantage. But let's not get carried away here, Protoss has a 60% win rate in TvP in Korea (january), so if people really think there is some sort of serious imbalance in the matchup, like some appearently do, they should really re-consider who suffers from that imbalance. Again I'm not saying there is imbalance, I don't think so, but to simply ignore all statistics and instead point at one game that was lost by a protoss is ridiculous.
Maybe the terrans who lost didn't do the SCV pull then.
Unless you can prove that this is the case and that pulling scvs somehow increases your win percentage significantly this is nothing but speculation. I don't deal with hypotheticals, I deal with facts.
Well this is hard to find as I don't know any statistics with a winrate for each build/strategy. But from what I've been seeing in GSL, the SCV pull is very likely to have a winrate > 50%. Of course it doesn't mean that it is OP based only on this fact, because it is pulled on certain circumstances, which have influence on its success, but knowing that this in many cases will be pulled when you're behind, or at least when you're not really ahead of your opponent, it makes me think that the terrans should do it all day every day. And this is where I see a problem.
It works due to the surprise factor and is used to punish greedy Protoss. It isn't like the SCV is an uber fighting unit. It just gives the Terran army that extra oomph. Basically all pros are trying to cut every corner they can get away with. So when a Protoss sees a Terran build or just traded armies, they estimate how much army they have (or have left) and how fast they can build. Then they build X amounts of units which they feel can hold the Terran off. As the rest goes to tech/Eco.
The SCV pull punishes the Protoss that did not take into consideration that the SCVs will be part of the attacking force.
And the reason the other races don't do it is because Terran bio army lack meat shields. I think you will see much much less SCVs pulls in HoTS because of hellbats.
Thx for this good analysis This sounds logical indeed. The problem is that terran can pull it while continuing some small production because of mules, while other races can't. This is why Z and P never do it.
On February 05 2013 21:05 SlixSC wrote: People can complain about mules all they want, Protoss has the tools to avoid these situations, if they don't then yes Terran has an advantage. But let's not get carried away here, Protoss has a 60% win rate in TvP in Korea (january), so if people really think there is some sort of serious imbalance in the matchup, like some appearently do, they should really re-consider who suffers from that imbalance. Again I'm not saying there is imbalance, I don't think so, but to simply ignore all statistics and instead point at one game that was lost by a protoss is ridiculous.
Maybe the terrans who lost didn't do the SCV pull then.
Unless you can prove that this is the case and that pulling scvs somehow increases your win percentage significantly this is nothing but speculation. I don't deal with hypotheticals, I deal with facts.
Well this is hard to find as I don't know any statistics with a winrate for each build/strategy. But from what I've been seeing in GSL, the SCV pull is very likely to have a winrate > 50%. Of course it doesn't mean that it is OP based only on this fact, because it is pulled on certain circumstances, which have influence on its success, but knowing that this in many cases will be pulled when you're behind, or at least when you're not really ahead of your opponent, it makes me think that the terrans should do it all day every day. And this is where I see a problem.
It works due to the surprise factor and is used to punish greedy Protoss. It isn't like the SCV is an uber fighting unit. It just gives the Terran army that extra oomph. Basically all pros are trying to cut every corner they can get away with. So when a Protoss sees a Terran build or just traded armies, they estimate how much army they have (or have left) and how fast they can build. Then they build X amounts of units which they feel can hold the Terran off. As the rest goes to tech/Eco.
The SCV pull punishes the Protoss that did not take into consideration that the SCVs will be part of the attacking force.
And the reason the other races don't do it is because Terran bio army lack meat shields. I think you will see much much less SCVs pulls in HoTS because of hellbats.
Thx for this good analysis This sounds logical indeed. The problem is that terran can pull it while continuing some small production because of mules, while other races can't. This is why Z and P never do it.
Yeah, there's a few things that make SCVs more pullable than say probes or drones. They have 5 more hit points than other workers which is actually a big deal especially against non-AoE units, they're more suited as meatshields for a terran army because it lacks melee units AND mules can still mine while SCVs are off the line.
So if a terran does an attack that they know will have to do huge damage or they'll be too far behind, they might as well pull their SCVs. It's basically cutting an extra corner offensively, they cut their mining but increase the strength of their attack.
On February 05 2013 21:05 SlixSC wrote: People can complain about mules all they want, Protoss has the tools to avoid these situations, if they don't then yes Terran has an advantage. But let's not get carried away here, Protoss has a 60% win rate in TvP in Korea (january), so if people really think there is some sort of serious imbalance in the matchup, like some appearently do, they should really re-consider who suffers from that imbalance. Again I'm not saying there is imbalance, I don't think so, but to simply ignore all statistics and instead point at one game that was lost by a protoss is ridiculous.
Maybe the terrans who lost didn't do the SCV pull then.
Unless you can prove that this is the case and that pulling scvs somehow increases your win percentage significantly this is nothing but speculation. I don't deal with hypotheticals, I deal with facts.
Well this is hard to find as I don't know any statistics with a winrate for each build/strategy. But from what I've been seeing in GSL, the SCV pull is very likely to have a winrate > 50%. Of course it doesn't mean that it is OP based only on this fact, because it is pulled on certain circumstances, which have influence on its success, but knowing that this in many cases will be pulled when you're behind, or at least when you're not really ahead of your opponent, it makes me think that the terrans should do it all day every day. And this is where I see a problem.
It works due to the surprise factor and is used to punish greedy Protoss. It isn't like the SCV is an uber fighting unit. It just gives the Terran army that extra oomph. Basically all pros are trying to cut every corner they can get away with. So when a Protoss sees a Terran build or just traded armies, they estimate how much army they have (or have left) and how fast they can build. Then they build X amounts of units which they feel can hold the Terran off. As the rest goes to tech/Eco.
The SCV pull punishes the Protoss that did not take into consideration that the SCVs will be part of the attacking force.
And the reason the other races don't do it is because Terran bio army lack meat shields. I think you will see much much less SCVs pulls in HoTS because of hellbats.
Thx for this good analysis This sounds logical indeed. The problem is that terran can pull it while continuing some small production because of mules, while other races can't. This is why Z and P never do it.
Mules is one factor. But I think for Z and P. Drones and probes would just block their own lings and zealots.
On February 05 2013 21:05 SlixSC wrote: People can complain about mules all they want, Protoss has the tools to avoid these situations, if they don't then yes Terran has an advantage. But let's not get carried away here, Protoss has a 60% win rate in TvP in Korea (january), so if people really think there is some sort of serious imbalance in the matchup, like some appearently do, they should really re-consider who suffers from that imbalance. Again I'm not saying there is imbalance, I don't think so, but to simply ignore all statistics and instead point at one game that was lost by a protoss is ridiculous.
Maybe the terrans who lost didn't do the SCV pull then.
Unless you can prove that this is the case and that pulling scvs somehow increases your win percentage significantly this is nothing but speculation. I don't deal with hypotheticals, I deal with facts.
Well this is hard to find as I don't know any statistics with a winrate for each build/strategy. But from what I've been seeing in GSL, the SCV pull is very likely to have a winrate > 50%. Of course it doesn't mean that it is OP based only on this fact, because it is pulled on certain circumstances, which have influence on its success, but knowing that this in many cases will be pulled when you're behind, or at least when you're not really ahead of your opponent, it makes me think that the terrans should do it all day every day. And this is where I see a problem.
It works due to the surprise factor and is used to punish greedy Protoss. It isn't like the SCV is an uber fighting unit. It just gives the Terran army that extra oomph. Basically all pros are trying to cut every corner they can get away with. So when a Protoss sees a Terran build or just traded armies, they estimate how much army they have (or have left) and how fast they can build. Then they build X amounts of units which they feel can hold the Terran off. As the rest goes to tech/Eco.
The SCV pull punishes the Protoss that did not take into consideration that the SCVs will be part of the attacking force.
And the reason the other races don't do it is because Terran bio army lack meat shields. I think you will see much much less SCVs pulls in HoTS because of hellbats.
Thx for this good analysis This sounds logical indeed. The problem is that terran can pull it while continuing some small production because of mules, while other races can't. This is why Z and P never do it.
Yeah, there's a few things that make SCVs more pullable than say probes or drones. They have 5 more hit points than other workers which is actually a big deal especially against non-AoE units, they're more suited as meatshields for a terran army because it lacks melee units AND mules can still mine while SCVs are off the line.
So if a terran does an attack that they know will have to do huge damage or they'll be too far behind, they might as well pull their SCVs. It's basically cutting an extra corner offensively, they cut their mining but increase the strength of their attack.
Also T armies have much high DPS, thus a few extra seconds of "meat shielding" has greater effect.
If unit A has 1000hp and does 100dps and unit B has 2000hp and does 50dps, those two unit will kill each other in 20sec if they fight. Add a 500hp shield to both and suddenly unit A kills B in 25sec while B kills A in 30sec. So unit A wins. Silly example maybe but it illustrates the effectiveness of a bunch of SCVs (meat) in front of a tight ball of stimmed bio (very high DPS).
On February 05 2013 23:15 poorcloud wrote: Tear getting kicked out of Code A so quickly after saying he felt like he would retire if he didnt make it through the last qualifiers?
So what about his future now?
Don't remind me ._. such a hard opponent for your first time in Code A...really hope he sticks with it a little while longer...
EPT
This sounds logical indeed. The problem is that terran can pull it while continuing some small production because of mules, while other races can't. This is why Z and P never do it.
