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No balance whining, caster bashing, or player bashing in this thread. |
On February 01 2013 22:23 Morken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:05 mijellin wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Morken wrote:
Hmm what kinda bothers me lately when watching Starcraft is that whenever someone uses a flank or a surround, he is considered a genius.
Why is it that after millenia of human warfare and now after years of pro-gaming in Starcraft, this still seems to be something extraordinary in this game? It's one of the simplest tactical moves (although a devastating one), and all historical battles basically revolved around avoiding to get flanked, yet flank yourself. This should also be standard in Starcraft, but all I see are people who clump up their units into a ball and walk straight onto an open field without any cover at all, just to get overwhelmed by a simple flank.
If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care, but it highly annoys me that casters, analysts and all sorts of other people, who call themselves experts in strategy games, act like flanking a completely undefended army was a stroke of genius and something they have never seen before or never would have thought of themselves. Because it takes extra effort to pull off. Just like how good macro or creep spread is impressive in execution, not bc they thought to do it. That's exactly my point. I tried to cover it with: "If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care[...]" It was poorly put, I apologize. What I meant, was the following: I know and of acknowledge that surrounding and flanking in Starcraft is difficult, because, like you said, it requires additional effort to execute. If it was the execution that was admired, I would be fine with it, but that is often not the case. Today's matches were probably not a good example, they just reminded me of this. But I recall a lot of games where a player (usually Stephano) won a battle decisively because of a flank or surround and the reaction of the casters was always the same: "Omg! How did he do that? How did he not die? How did he beat this many units with his army? ... and so forth. And this "how did he do that" never sounded like "how was he able to execute this move so quickly and flawlessly?", it always sounded like "how the hell did that work just now? really, I have no clue what just happened..." And THIS bothers me. I don't know if some of them just play dumb, to make the players look good, or if they really don't have the slightest clue if it comes to tactics.
Your point about army control is pretty accurate. However it has to be said that flanking was completely common in Broodwar for years- the unlimited unit selection of SC2 just makes it easy to be lazy and mindlessly "(death-)ball". Once the kespa players (for whom flanking is the standard) make it to the top you will see it become commonplace in SC2 too.
Casters always try to find shit to hype ("never seen this in my life"), it's their job.
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United States97277 Posts
I think we will start seeing Akilon Flats as one of the go to zerg maps for ZvT. After the 3 ZvT wins on it today the map is now 5-0 for Zerg
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On February 01 2013 22:49 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:36 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:14 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:10 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:06 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 22:03 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:00 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 21:58 SiroKO wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:49 vthree wrote:
[quote]
I think Stephano and Bogus' macro play are on a similar level. But the game gives the advantage to macro zergs over macro terrans right now. The terrans basically needs to stifle the zerg's eco before it gets out of hand. Did you see Bomber's games by chance? I mean in general there's definitely an advantage for Zergs in the later game if they aren't harassed or pressured that's obvious sure, but game 2 was more than just the Zerg late game advantage. Stephano beat Innovation in virtually every catergory. Superior macro, superior multitasking, superior army movement and scouting, superior compositions, unbelievable creep spread that was almost impossible to check. I mean yea Zerg has a nice late game advantage but I'd love to see Stephano try and trounce Bomber or Gumiho the way he slaughtered Innovation in game 2. Their late game play is far superior IMO. Bomber and Gumiho won a single bo3 against Sniper and now they're the TvZ messia... Lol why don't you stop with that? :D Bomber won quite a lot of TvZ recently, in good fashion. He really is the terran with the most chance to do well in this GSL TvZ wise if he doesn't choke like he did a lot of times in the past. Bomber's TvZ is really good. But I still think he is a huge underdog vs Life, DRG. And slight underdog to Symbol. And probably 50/50 vs Curious, LosirA. Yeah but he is the best chance we have. With our 3x% winrate we don't have a lot anyways. Hopefully in HoTS, Blizzard will take a look at creep spread. Because I don't even think it is the units (infestors, BL, etc) anymore. Once the creep gets going, there is not much terran can do other than to wait for the zerg to make mistakes. Terrans have 0 map control and zergs choose exactly when and where they want to engage. Or else we are just going to see terrans going to that early siege tank widow mines push Maybe Raven's should be able to clear creep with a spell or something. Like a "cleanse" ability with a large splash radius. Sometimes a certain buffs create new problems. Creep was NOT a problem before queen patch. It became a big problem because against good zergs like DRG I have yet to see a terran that is able to clear creep. And it gives so much edge to zerg army. You can delay expansion landing up to 2-3 minutes, you see every move enemy army makes. And all that for 1 creep tumor that can be spread without spending any additional resources or energy. If I were at Blizzard I would probably just make creep spread slower. Good news, creep is slower in HotS because instead of the tumor instantly forming, it takes 3 seconds to "travel" to the new spot. I'm not sure how much this will slow it down, but it does have an effect.
The biggest problem is multiple tumors accelerating creep growth.
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On February 01 2013 22:54 Shellshock1122 wrote:
I think we will start seeing Akilon Flats as one of the go to zerg maps for ZvT. After the 3 ZvT wins on it today the map is now 5-0 for Zerg
Yes mutas are great choice on that map, so many high/low ground terrain exploits, hard to do drops with good overlord spread (and mutas ofc).
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I pray that I get to see Husky cast with Wolf some day
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Innovation ftw!!!!
Stephano is out as I predicted :D
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On February 01 2013 22:54 Shellshock1122 wrote:
I think we will start seeing Akilon Flats as one of the go to zerg maps for ZvT. After the 3 ZvT wins on it today the map is now 5-0 for Zerg
Baby (T) beat Action (Z) on it.
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bogus showed why stephano is still not a code s championship candidate. He got cheesed 3 out of 5 games and lost cause he didnt scout properly and didnt show enough diversity.
Pretty excited for his Code A matches though
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Hopefully it's the last time GOM gives code S seeds to foreigners.
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On February 01 2013 23:23 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Hopefully it's the last time GOM gives code S seeds to foreigners.
It was, i believe. I think Artosis mentioned that they are going to move away from Code S seeds in the future.
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Well Stephano got third. I wonder what the excuses are going to be.
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On February 01 2013 22:53 Irre wrote:
I didn't get to see all the games, but holy crap Bogus timings were so crisp..love his TvZ.
As far as all the fanboy stuff goes, I am not really either a fan or hater of stephano, but he always plays well and is 100% best foreigner of WoL no matter what. However, I think that no matter how people do, this proves that seeds are really not the way to go for GSL. I hope Stephano plays through Code A and comes back to Code S.. that to me will be more impressive than him getting through his group today.
180 page LR thread, a lot of viewers, he did actually beat someone who legitimately qualified and played some decent and some not so decent games against Innovation, I'm not a big fan of seeds, but I don't think today's events are a good example of a seed not working.
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On February 01 2013 23:40 Whatson wrote:
Well Stephano got third. I wonder what the excuses are going to be.
No excuse here. But to be fair Stephano was still pretty good as a foreigner. He needs to fix some details that are annoying though such as keep checking the attack path. He also needs to be less previsible in his build. That said, it doesn't mean that he doesn't has the potential to compete in code S, and I think he has it. But he's not refined enough to fight in code S. Code A should be OK though.
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On February 01 2013 22:02 sadalsuud wrote:results so far (just for information) TvZ 16-28 36% ZvP 8-13 38% PvT 4-4 50% TERRAN 38% PROTOSS 58% ZERG 55% meh i'm sad for my fellow terrans! 
Too small sample size for TLers. Get out of here with that nonsense. One tournament is never large enough for TLers. Only since the beginning of sc2 combined percents matter (even though it spans patches). Ladder stats don't matter since not pros. Foreign Terran stats never matter since not Korean. Korean results never matter since sample size is irrelevant.
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Boom DRG and Bogus just as I predicted :D
Also glad to hear they are moving away from code S seeds. Foreigners getting seeds into Code S based mostly on popularity was a joke.
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and this proves Stephano can't survive in Code S right?
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On February 01 2013 23:00 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:49 nomyx wrote:On February 01 2013 22:36 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:14 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:10 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:06 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 22:03 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:00 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 21:58 SiroKO wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Did you see Bomber's games by chance?
I mean in general there's definitely an advantage for Zergs in the later game if they aren't harassed or pressured that's obvious sure, but game 2 was more than just the Zerg late game advantage. Stephano beat Innovation in virtually every catergory. Superior macro, superior multitasking, superior army movement and scouting, superior compositions, unbelievable creep spread that was almost impossible to check.
I mean yea Zerg has a nice late game advantage but I'd love to see Stephano try and trounce Bomber or Gumiho the way he slaughtered Innovation in game 2. Their late game play is far superior IMO. Bomber and Gumiho won a single bo3 against Sniper and now they're the TvZ messia... Lol why don't you stop with that? :D Bomber won quite a lot of TvZ recently, in good fashion. He really is the terran with the most chance to do well in this GSL TvZ wise if he doesn't choke like he did a lot of times in the past. Bomber's TvZ is really good. But I still think he is a huge underdog vs Life, DRG. And slight underdog to Symbol. And probably 50/50 vs Curious, LosirA. Yeah but he is the best chance we have. With our 3x% winrate we don't have a lot anyways. Hopefully in HoTS, Blizzard will take a look at creep spread. Because I don't even think it is the units (infestors, BL, etc) anymore. Once the creep gets going, there is not much terran can do other than to wait for the zerg to make mistakes. Terrans have 0 map control and zergs choose exactly when and where they want to engage. Or else we are just going to see terrans going to that early siege tank widow mines push Maybe Raven's should be able to clear creep with a spell or something. Like a "cleanse" ability with a large splash radius. Sometimes a certain buffs create new problems. Creep was NOT a problem before queen patch. It became a big problem because against good zergs like DRG I have yet to see a terran that is able to clear creep. And it gives so much edge to zerg army. You can delay expansion landing up to 2-3 minutes, you see every move enemy army makes. And all that for 1 creep tumor that can be spread without spending any additional resources or energy. If I were at Blizzard I would probably just make creep spread slower. Good news, creep is slower in HotS because instead of the tumor instantly forming, it takes 3 seconds to "travel" to the new spot. I'm not sure how much this will slow it down, but it does have an effect. The biggest problem is multiple tumors accelerating creep growth.
Agreed, I understand that a LR thread isn't the place to discuss balance, but if creep rumors didn't stack to increase rate of creep spread, multiple queen builds would not be so strong and possibly help shift the balance in ZvT in favor of T a little. 6 queen builds are strong because any high level player with APM will spread the creep very quickly even without creep stacking. I think creep stacking is the real reason why Terran harass is shut down in TvZ.
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Stephano is out. No surprise there. But I'm happy for DRG. He's the best zerg next to Life imo 
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On February 01 2013 21:54 ThomasR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? well if he puts more effort into scouting he'd have a much better chance i really like how he's able to set up flanks and get good engagements (unlike nestea yesterday)
if if if if and another if
the fact that he didnt do the if, stands
and no if's can save him this season
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I think Stephano's biggest issue was obviously lack of scouting but also too rigid play, it seamed like he simply followed his pre set build order without much regard to what his opponent is doing. He did well in that game 2 in second series between him and Innovation with good muta play that enabled him to take map control and spread creep after which Innovation had virtually no chances of winning that game. In all other games, he was outplayed.
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EPT
