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No balance whining, caster bashing, or player bashing in this thread. |
On February 01 2013 22:05 mijellin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:01 Morken wrote:
Hmm what kinda bothers me lately when watching Starcraft is that whenever someone uses a flank or a surround, he is considered a genius.
Why is it that after millenia of human warfare and now after years of pro-gaming in Starcraft, this still seems to be something extraordinary in this game? It's one of the simplest tactical moves (although a devastating one), and all historical battles basically revolved around avoiding to get flanked, yet flank yourself. This should also be standard in Starcraft, but all I see are people who clump up their units into a ball and walk straight onto an open field without any cover at all, just to get overwhelmed by a simple flank.
If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care, but it highly annoys me that casters, analysts and all sorts of other people, who call themselves experts in strategy games, act like flanking a completely undefended army was a stroke of genius and something they have never seen before or never would have thought of themselves. Because it takes extra effort to pull off. Just like how good macro or creep spread is impressive in execution, not bc they thought to do it.
Exactly. And not only do you need to control two armies, you need to get them to hit the targets at the exact same time. Flanking against a mobile army makes it even harder since the enemy can move towards one of the groups and get to fight half of the enemy. That is why a flank can be really beautiful.
But I do agree we don't see it enough in Sc2.
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I remember a guy writing "Huk went 1-4 and took a game, already spelled fuck you to all the haters" Now Stephano goes out 3-4 and got demolished? Some guys seriously are nuts here. MVP went 1-4, what a newbie right? Code A level player.
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On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that.
Oh well now 'stomped' has been capitalised i agree with you...
Hmm, no, hang on, it seems i can twist this by saying exactly what i said before strangely enough!
Why can't I acknowledge innovation was the better player whilst also acknowledging the fact that stephano held his own in terms of ability? :D
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On February 01 2013 22:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:03 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:00 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 21:58 SiroKO wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:49 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 21:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:43 decado90 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:40 derpface wrote:
[quote]
lol... just admit Bogus is more skilled than Stephano. They were a good match for each other. I dont want to jump to any conclusions about who's more skilled by just one series. Innovation made the Semis last season and beat a lot of top Zergs to get there. he's definitely quality. But Stephano stuck right there with him and in the same night also outclassed Hack. He's a top Zerg even if his haters don't want to admit it. He got put in a tough group and barely didnt make it out. No harm in that, better players than him have said the same thing. Code S is tough and Stephano just learned that firsthand. Are you serious dude? Bogus is so much better than Stephano. He actually has a chance to win the GSL for starters. Dead serious. Stephano is a superior macro player in general IMO but Innovation beat him using superior decision making and early game tactics. A lot of that has to do with a probable lack of preparation on Stephano's part which is normal considering that GSL is much different than any of the marathon foreigner events he's used to playing. I think given time to adjust more to the way GSL is played as well as some better scouting I think Stephano could take him in a long series. His game number 2 was about as one sided as a TvZ can possibly be which tells me that if Innovation doesn't manage to secure an early advantage somehow that Stephano will crush him with his superior late game. It's a normal dynamic between players of similar skill level. I think Stephano and Bogus' macro play are on a similar level. But the game gives the advantage to macro zergs over macro terrans right now. The terrans basically needs to stifle the zerg's eco before it gets out of hand. Did you see Bomber's games by chance? I mean in general there's definitely an advantage for Zergs in the later game if they aren't harassed or pressured that's obvious sure, but game 2 was more than just the Zerg late game advantage. Stephano beat Innovation in virtually every catergory. Superior macro, superior multitasking, superior army movement and scouting, superior compositions, unbelievable creep spread that was almost impossible to check. I mean yea Zerg has a nice late game advantage but I'd love to see Stephano try and trounce Bomber or Gumiho the way he slaughtered Innovation in game 2. Their late game play is far superior IMO. Bomber and Gumiho won a single bo3 against Sniper and now they're the TvZ messia... Lol why don't you stop with that? :D Bomber won quite a lot of TvZ recently, in good fashion. He really is the terran with the most chance to do well in this GSL TvZ wise if he doesn't choke like he did a lot of times in the past. Bomber's TvZ is really good. But I still think he is a huge underdog vs Life, DRG. And slight underdog to Symbol. And probably 50/50 vs Curious, LosirA. Yeah but he is the best chance we have. With our 3x% winrate we don't have a lot anyways.
Hopefully in HoTS, Blizzard will take a look at creep spread. Because I don't even think it is the units (infestors, BL, etc) anymore. Once the creep gets going, there is not much terran can do other than to wait for the zerg to make mistakes. Terrans have 0 map control and zergs choose exactly when and where they want to engage.
Or else we are just going to see terrans going to that early siege tank widow mines push
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Idk i enjoyed wolf because he made the games exciting. The same reason that I enjoy korean commentators really. I may not understand what they're saying but the games are just more enjoyable with real enthusiasm behind it.
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On February 01 2013 22:05 FineAndDandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:02 sadalsuud wrote:results so far (just for information) TvZ 16-28 36% ZvP 8-13 38% PvT 4-4 50% TERRAN 38% PROTOSS 58% ZERG 55% meh i'm sad for my fellow terrans!  Wow, Protoss are slaughtering zergs.
immortal timing attack i think
Macro game without it, the statistics would look different
This is just a winrate statistics, not a timebased one, which would whos lots of protoss wins in midgame i guess.
Not sure about the endgame cause getting off the vortex (& Archon toilet)is like flipping a coin. Either it works or it doesn't, anyway the game is most of the times decided then
On February 01 2013 22:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:06 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 22:03 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:00 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 21:58 SiroKO wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:49 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 21:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:43 decado90 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
They were a good match for each other. I dont want to jump to any conclusions about who's more skilled by just one series.
Innovation made the Semis last season and beat a lot of top Zergs to get there. he's definitely quality.
But Stephano stuck right there with him and in the same night also outclassed Hack. He's a top Zerg even if his haters don't want to admit it. He got put in a tough group and barely didnt make it out. No harm in that, better players than him have said the same thing. Code S is tough and Stephano just learned that firsthand. Are you serious dude? Bogus is so much better than Stephano. He actually has a chance to win the GSL for starters. Dead serious. Stephano is a superior macro player in general IMO but Innovation beat him using superior decision making and early game tactics. A lot of that has to do with a probable lack of preparation on Stephano's part which is normal considering that GSL is much different than any of the marathon foreigner events he's used to playing. I think given time to adjust more to the way GSL is played as well as some better scouting I think Stephano could take him in a long series. His game number 2 was about as one sided as a TvZ can possibly be which tells me that if Innovation doesn't manage to secure an early advantage somehow that Stephano will crush him with his superior late game. It's a normal dynamic between players of similar skill level. I think Stephano and Bogus' macro play are on a similar level. But the game gives the advantage to macro zergs over macro terrans right now. The terrans basically needs to stifle the zerg's eco before it gets out of hand. Did you see Bomber's games by chance? I mean in general there's definitely an advantage for Zergs in the later game if they aren't harassed or pressured that's obvious sure, but game 2 was more than just the Zerg late game advantage. Stephano beat Innovation in virtually every catergory. Superior macro, superior multitasking, superior army movement and scouting, superior compositions, unbelievable creep spread that was almost impossible to check. I mean yea Zerg has a nice late game advantage but I'd love to see Stephano try and trounce Bomber or Gumiho the way he slaughtered Innovation in game 2. Their late game play is far superior IMO. Bomber and Gumiho won a single bo3 against Sniper and now they're the TvZ messia... Lol why don't you stop with that? :D Bomber won quite a lot of TvZ recently, in good fashion. He really is the terran with the most chance to do well in this GSL TvZ wise if he doesn't choke like he did a lot of times in the past. Bomber's TvZ is really good. But I still think he is a huge underdog vs Life, DRG. And slight underdog to Symbol. And probably 50/50 vs Curious, LosirA. Yeah but he is the best chance we have. With our 3x% winrate we don't have a lot anyways. Hopefully in HoTS, Blizzard will take a look at creep spread. Because I don't even think it is the units (infestors, BL, etc) anymore. Once the creep gets going, there is not much terran can do other than to wait for the zerg to make mistakes. Terrans have 0 map control and zergs choose exactly when and where they want to engage. Or else we are just going to see terrans going to that early siege tank widow mines push
I struggle as well with creepspread when I play terran. Scans are expensive, so is the raven but maybe I can find better ways to use the raven in early and midgame so I could get rid of creepspread. Not sure about HOTS though, since Mutalisks are buffed a bit, Raven is instantly dead all the time
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United States7166 Posts
On February 01 2013 22:07 zefreak wrote:
Now that people can't over-hype Stephano they are over-hyping Wolf. Hes a great caster but he completely misread that last game (called a slight advantage for Stephano after losing 15 drones (because he had a third and Bogus didn't) while Apollo was talking about how behind Stephano was at the exact same time.
Fact is, he is passionate and entertaining but his analysis and understanding just isn't as high as that of Artosis or Apollo
hm i'd disagree..given his build and lack of any starport, no 3rd cc, not great economy, no tanks just makes it too allin-ish. stephano was able to rebuild drones to get back to being ahead again with earlier upgrades and better tech. it's kind of like the same idea when a terran goes 2rax but zerg holds it off, even tho the zerg is a bit behind or equal in workers he'll be ahead because he'll re-drone fast while terran's entire infrastructure is delayed.
like i said before, if stephano was able to get a few more banelings for that last attack he woulda held + won that game...still think he shoulda sacrificed his natural to wait for more units
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Not the greatest day for foreign SC2.
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On February 01 2013 22:06 Flinch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:04 bittman wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. We live in a strange world. Where not being of "Code S level" means you are in Code S. Truly, an age for the paradoxes. HuK Code S level amirite? Hack is bad, get over it. Stephano is 1-4 against good players in Code S.
Excuse me here, but I have to defend my hipster Hack cred by saying.
Well actually he did play pretty bad today. But this is his second Code S in a row and he has shown some great play at times.
He just barely missed out on Ro8 last time. 1-2 MKP, 2-0 Yoda and 1-2 Hyun in his group.
Well I was gonna write a tonne of other stuff but nevermind. I'll keep Hack hipster cred to myself. You enjoy your attempted baiting of users.
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Ah, it looks like Stephano lost. 
Very happy DRG made it through.
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On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that.
Last GSL, 28 players ended up behind Bogus. All of them are bad? Stop that bullshit please. There is NOTHING wrong in loosing to Bogus, you can be a TOP LEVEL GSL player and loose against Bogus. Leenock is out too, MVP is out, Stephano is out....so what, means not that much....
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On February 01 2013 22:10 Type|NarutO wrote:
I remember a guy writing "Huk went 1-4 and took a game, already spelled fuck you to all the haters" Now Stephano goes out 3-4 and got demolished? Some guys seriously are nuts here. MVP went 1-4, what a newbie right? Code A level player.
In his prime he's not a Code A level player but he played like one that day
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On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that.
Youre so god damn angry. If Stephano won that game, they would have been 2:3 but Stephano advancing. Who's the better player then? Would Stephano have been "beaten" by Innovation yet be in the RO16 instead?
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Well to me code s caliber player is player who actually can make it to the code s without invite and sustain his spot for certain amount of time. Not saying that Stephano necessary is not code s level but I understand what some people mean. Like, can you honestly say that HuK is code s level? and yet he played there just a few days ago.
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On February 01 2013 22:10 Vertigro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Oh well now 'stomped' has been capitalised i agree with you... Hmm, no, hang on, it seems i can twist this by saying exactly what i said before strangely enough! Why can't I acknowledge innovation was the better player whilst also acknowledging the fact that stephano held his own in terms of ability? :D
Stephano lost 1-4, he isn't even close in ability dumb fuck.
Fanboys are pathetic.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 01 2013 22:10 Supercilium wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:05 mijellin wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Morken wrote:
Hmm what kinda bothers me lately when watching Starcraft is that whenever someone uses a flank or a surround, he is considered a genius.
Why is it that after millenia of human warfare and now after years of pro-gaming in Starcraft, this still seems to be something extraordinary in this game? It's one of the simplest tactical moves (although a devastating one), and all historical battles basically revolved around avoiding to get flanked, yet flank yourself. This should also be standard in Starcraft, but all I see are people who clump up their units into a ball and walk straight onto an open field without any cover at all, just to get overwhelmed by a simple flank.
If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care, but it highly annoys me that casters, analysts and all sorts of other people, who call themselves experts in strategy games, act like flanking a completely undefended army was a stroke of genius and something they have never seen before or never would have thought of themselves. Because it takes extra effort to pull off. Just like how good macro or creep spread is impressive in execution, not bc they thought to do it. Exactly. And not only do you need to control two armies, you need to get them to hit the targets at the exact same time. Flanking against a mobile army makes it even harder since the enemy can move against one of the groups and get to fight half of the enemy. That is why a flank can be really beautiful. But I do agree we don't see it enough in Sc2.
To be fair, a marine tank army on creep is probably the easiest army to flank in the game. It is like flanking unsupported BLs like Noblesse did to Nestea.
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On February 01 2013 22:08 Dodgin wrote:Man, post match GSL LR fan wars are the best. 
You think you're good, HUH? Well, I must say Shellshock totally did a way better job than you in this LR thread!
There, I said it!
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On February 01 2013 22:08 Undead1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:06 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:04 bittman wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. We live in a strange world. Where not being of "Code S level" means you are in Code S. Truly, an age for the paradoxes. HuK Code S level amirite? Hack is bad, get over it. Stephano is 1-4 against good players in Code S. "against good players in code s" Against 1 player who was ro4 last season lol ... haters never stop
How is that hate? Do you want to deny that Stephano is 1-4 against Bogus?
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On February 01 2013 22:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 21:59 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:47 AxionSteel wrote:
Wolf is better than Artosis imo. He's far less biased, when I listen to Artosis cast a ZvT, it's 80% about zerg, what they need to do to get the win etc. And as a solo caster, Wolf does an impeccable job.
Yeah I agree. Artosis was very vocal at the beginning of the game when zerg was up, he was very vocal during 1/1/1 TvP era, but when terran has it rough it almost seems like he trolls with "beautiful fungals". I actually think Wolf is the best GSL caster but Artosis and Tasteless are just more popular because of their bro relationship. Artosis-Wolf would be a good analytical and more objective cast I feel. Tasteless just complies to whatever Artosis is saying. Tasteless is just a parrot I agree. Artosis' bias really shows when a P is playing. Him and Tasteless are both P players so they talk a lot more about the protoss build than their opponent. Wofl owned it today though. Not a fan of him and Khaldor, but solo wolf is epic.
Tasteless the parrot, haha made me chuckle 
But I agree wholeheartadly, Tasteless is such a shadow of what he used to be back in BW.
Right now I think he sucks as much as he was good back then.
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EPT
