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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On January 21 2013 18:22 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:01 raga4ka wrote:On January 21 2013 17:52 mongmong wrote:On January 21 2013 17:50 justinpal wrote:On January 21 2013 17:46 Dosey wrote:On January 21 2013 17:39 ROOTheognis wrote:
lol baby played like total ass. wtf, when they showed his base he had like 5 supply drops. He also forgot his upgrades and never got a 4th. Meh, seemed really really shaky for a player of his caliber.
GG hero! I'm beginning to think his "caliber" isn't really all that high... Really though, who has he beaten? Brain (who?), Flash(mildly overrated and not very good at TvT), Symbol(very streaky himself), and a couple Bo1's against mid-tier terrans. He's shown some pretty good games, but is relatively unproven as a top tier player. He outplayed hero until he let all his ghosts die. It was smart of him to run around kill the third and snipe colossus with his vikings and then run back around. However, he stopped running around and attacked with his ghosts and the rest of hero's army caught up. Also, as you know he also decided not to snipe the colossus. It seemed like either he had a mental lapse of miscontrol, or he couldn't manage two or three control groups simultaneously. Up until then everything he did was smart. No, he didnt outplay hero at all. Not even close. Try something else dude because that map is heavily T favored against protoss and the fact that Baby tried so many times to snipe the third nexus isnt what you call "outplaying". Heavily terran favourite is not backed up with statistics from TLPD . 3 - 2 in favour of protoss in PvT shows that the map is playable . And you think such a small sample size of 5 is reliable enough to believe its not terran favoured. lol This is like watching Sson beat Flash 2-0 and saying "oh they only played two games but Sson is a better player than Flash!"
i think the onus is on you to show that it is terran favoured, since you were the one who claimed it. balanced until proven otherwise!
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On January 21 2013 18:15 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:08 Doublemint wrote:There are some exceptionally talented and strong guys from the Kespa side no doubt, but I am kinda glad this BW elitism has run its course to be honest  If you discount the fact that 90% of the players that have won something significant in SC2 were BW pros then yeah . The only notable players who don't have a BW background are Polt and Stephano i can't think of anyone else .
Life's good yo
creator as well
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On January 21 2013 18:19 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:08 Doublemint wrote:There are some exceptionally talented and strong guys from the Kespa side no doubt, but I am kinda glad this BW elitism has run its course to be honest If you discount the fact that 95% of the players that have won something significant in SC2 were BW pros then yeah . The only notable players who don't have a BW background are Polt and Stephano i can't think of anyone else .
The whole point of the Elephant in the Room article was related to the idea that when the BW pros who were WINNING EVERYTHING in BW switch over to SC2, they should also end up WINNING EVERYTHING.
That has not happened yet. Basically, what I see is that some top BW pro's are doing quite well in SC2 (Flash, Jaedong, etc.), but they are not at their BW domination level (yet). But here's the real kicker - those BW pros that were NOT the top/dominating ones in BW are reaching/achieving that top/dominating level in SC2 (e.g. HerO, Parting, MC, MVP, Taeja, etc.).
Basically, I think it goes to show two things: 1) the top BW pros still need more time to learn SC2 because it's a very different game and metagame (and maps); and 2) Again, it's a DIFFERENT GAME. The very top BW pros might not actually end up being the very best at this game.
And I think #2 basically is the antithesis to the Elephant in the Room's main point/speculation.
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On January 21 2013 18:19 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:08 Doublemint wrote:There are some exceptionally talented and strong guys from the Kespa side no doubt, but I am kinda glad this BW elitism has run its course to be honest If you discount the fact that 95% of the players that have won something significant in SC2 were BW pros then yeah . The only notable players who don't have a BW background are Polt and Stephano i can't think of anyone else .
Except that was never the issue/argument. Since like you said, most of the SC2 pro have a BW background. The argument was based on the fact that a lot of 'B-teamers' of BW had switched over and were having success in SC2. But since BW was a 'harder' game, if the A-teamers switched over, they would easily run over these B-teamers. As we have seen, this is not the case. It isn't even about Kespa vs eSF at this point. Even amongst Kespa teams themselves, you see some 'B-teamers' outperforming 'A-teamers".
Switching to SC2 was a slight 'reset' if you will. We might see something like this for 'HoTS' as well but on a smaller scale. Some players might just be more suited for the 'HoTS' meta game.
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On January 21 2013 17:59 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 17:52 mongmong wrote:On January 21 2013 17:50 justinpal wrote:On January 21 2013 17:46 Dosey wrote:On January 21 2013 17:39 ROOTheognis wrote:
lol baby played like total ass. wtf, when they showed his base he had like 5 supply drops. He also forgot his upgrades and never got a 4th. Meh, seemed really really shaky for a player of his caliber.
GG hero! I'm beginning to think his "caliber" isn't really all that high... Really though, who has he beaten? Brain (who?), Flash(mildly overrated and not very good at TvT), Symbol(very streaky himself), and a couple Bo1's against mid-tier terrans. He's shown some pretty good games, but is relatively unproven as a top tier player. He outplayed hero until he let all his ghosts die. It was smart of him to run around kill the third and snipe colossus with his vikings and then run back around. However, he stopped running around and attacked with his ghosts and the rest of hero's army caught up. Also, as you know he also decided not to snipe the colossus. It seemed like either he had a mental lapse of miscontrol, or he couldn't manage two or three control groups simultaneously. Up until then everything he did was smart. No, he didnt outplay hero at all. Not even close. Try something else dude because that map is heavily T favored against protoss and the fact that Baby tried so many times to snipe the third nexus isnt what you call "outplaying". what the He was wiping the floor with Hero until he fucked up that last engagement super bad and lost the game. Also throwing out stuff like "heavily favored" on a map that probably doesn't even have 5 pro TvPs played on it ever is dumb.
Do you even know how long it took baby to actually snipe Hero's third? It happened wayyyyy after hero mined enough
gas and minerals +adding colossus. If baby wanted to pull that out with a clear advantage, he shoulda thought of some
escape route like Polt did against Hero at NASL Seaso 4 semi final game 5. Watch that game and youll understand
what "outplaying" means. running away with your army while chargelots are tearing apart 50% isnt really what a good
terran player does. Baby needs to watch Polt's pvt and take some notes because its not really working out for him. If you think Baby's pvt is better than Polt's, then i dunno what to say.. Youre dillusional.
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Yes! Having HerO on my FPL team finally pays off after three weeks. So happy for me and him. Go EG-TL
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On January 21 2013 18:27 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 17:59 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:52 mongmong wrote:On January 21 2013 17:50 justinpal wrote:On January 21 2013 17:46 Dosey wrote:On January 21 2013 17:39 ROOTheognis wrote:
lol baby played like total ass. wtf, when they showed his base he had like 5 supply drops. He also forgot his upgrades and never got a 4th. Meh, seemed really really shaky for a player of his caliber.
GG hero! I'm beginning to think his "caliber" isn't really all that high... Really though, who has he beaten? Brain (who?), Flash(mildly overrated and not very good at TvT), Symbol(very streaky himself), and a couple Bo1's against mid-tier terrans. He's shown some pretty good games, but is relatively unproven as a top tier player. He outplayed hero until he let all his ghosts die. It was smart of him to run around kill the third and snipe colossus with his vikings and then run back around. However, he stopped running around and attacked with his ghosts and the rest of hero's army caught up. Also, as you know he also decided not to snipe the colossus. It seemed like either he had a mental lapse of miscontrol, or he couldn't manage two or three control groups simultaneously. Up until then everything he did was smart. No, he didnt outplay hero at all. Not even close. Try something else dude because that map is heavily T favored against protoss and the fact that Baby tried so many times to snipe the third nexus isnt what you call "outplaying". what the He was wiping the floor with Hero until he fucked up that last engagement super bad and lost the game. Also throwing out stuff like "heavily favored" on a map that probably doesn't even have 5 pro TvPs played on it ever is dumb. Do you even know how long it took baby to actually snipe Hero's third? It happened wayyyyy after hero mined enough gas and minerals +adding colossus. If baby wanted to pull that out with a clear advantage, he shoulda thought of some escape route like Polt did against Hero at NASL Seaso 4 semi final game 5. Watch that game and youll understand what "outplaying" means. running away with your army while chargelots are tearing apart 50% isnt really what a good terran player does. Baby needs to watch Polt's pvt and take some notes because its not really working out for him. If you think Baby's pvt is better than Polt's, then i dunno what to say.. Youre dillusional.
wtf since when did he claim that? lol
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On January 21 2013 18:28 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:27 mongmong wrote:On January 21 2013 17:59 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:52 mongmong wrote:On January 21 2013 17:50 justinpal wrote:On January 21 2013 17:46 Dosey wrote:On January 21 2013 17:39 ROOTheognis wrote:
lol baby played like total ass. wtf, when they showed his base he had like 5 supply drops. He also forgot his upgrades and never got a 4th. Meh, seemed really really shaky for a player of his caliber.
GG hero! I'm beginning to think his "caliber" isn't really all that high... Really though, who has he beaten? Brain (who?), Flash(mildly overrated and not very good at TvT), Symbol(very streaky himself), and a couple Bo1's against mid-tier terrans. He's shown some pretty good games, but is relatively unproven as a top tier player. He outplayed hero until he let all his ghosts die. It was smart of him to run around kill the third and snipe colossus with his vikings and then run back around. However, he stopped running around and attacked with his ghosts and the rest of hero's army caught up. Also, as you know he also decided not to snipe the colossus. It seemed like either he had a mental lapse of miscontrol, or he couldn't manage two or three control groups simultaneously. Up until then everything he did was smart. No, he didnt outplay hero at all. Not even close. Try something else dude because that map is heavily T favored against protoss and the fact that Baby tried so many times to snipe the third nexus isnt what you call "outplaying". what the He was wiping the floor with Hero until he fucked up that last engagement super bad and lost the game. Also throwing out stuff like "heavily favored" on a map that probably doesn't even have 5 pro TvPs played on it ever is dumb. Do you even know how long it took baby to actually snipe Hero's third? It happened wayyyyy after hero mined enough gas and minerals +adding colossus. If baby wanted to pull that out with a clear advantage, he shoulda thought of some escape route like Polt did against Hero at NASL Seaso 4 semi final game 5. Watch that game and youll understand what "outplaying" means. running away with your army while chargelots are tearing apart 50% isnt really what a good terran player does. Baby needs to watch Polt's pvt and take some notes because its not really working out for him. If you think Baby's pvt is better than Polt's, then i dunno what to say.. Youre dillusional. wtf since when did he claim that? lol
I was just assuming because he seemed to be one of those dillusional people who still have faith in the socalled
"elephant stampede " bullshit. Maybe I went toooooo far but im so pissed at people shitting on Hero and not really giving him any credit.
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On January 21 2013 18:20 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:15 raga4ka wrote:On January 21 2013 18:08 Doublemint wrote:There are some exceptionally talented and strong guys from the Kespa side no doubt, but I am kinda glad this BW elitism has run its course to be honest If you discount the fact that 90% of the players that have won something significant in SC2 were BW pros then yeah . The only notable players who don't have a BW background are Polt and Stephano i can't think of anyone else . The BW elitism Doublemint is talking about is probably the idea that The Elephant in the Room was theorizing about (good/dominant players in BW coming over to SC2 and steamrolling the competition). If you instead decide to interpret it as "any player with a BW background regardless of record being good at SC2" then BW elitism doesn't even mean much anymore.
pretty much. also it would be a pretty vain endeavor to name like really A LOT of koreans (although of course there are some, especially the younger ones) that hardly came into contact with BW, it was just a big part of the esports and general RTS culture there... if you were into RTS you most probably played SC/SCBW. sure it helps hone skills like macro(probably even micro) and map awareness more like a game of the likes of WC3, but that's not everything apparently - and luckily makes for harder and more interesting competition for us to witness and enjoy
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I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
don't forget the epic fantasy-roro matches in code A.
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On January 21 2013 18:25 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:19 raga4ka wrote:On January 21 2013 18:08 Doublemint wrote:There are some exceptionally talented and strong guys from the Kespa side no doubt, but I am kinda glad this BW elitism has run its course to be honest If you discount the fact that 95% of the players that have won something significant in SC2 were BW pros then yeah . The only notable players who don't have a BW background are Polt and Stephano i can't think of anyone else . Except that was never the issue/argument. Since like you said, most of the SC2 pro have a BW background. The argument was based on the fact that a lot of 'B-teamers' of BW had switched over and were having success in SC2. But since BW was a 'harder' game, if the A-teamers switched over, they would easily run over these B-teamers. As we have seen, this is not the case. It isn't even about Kespa vs eSF at this point. Even amongst Kespa teams themselves, you see some 'B-teamers' outperforming 'A-teamers". Switching to SC2 was a slight 'reset' if you will. We might see something like this for 'HoTS' as well but on a smaller scale. Some players might just be more suited for the 'HoTS' meta game.
I think Kespa switched to late to make any huge difference in WOL . In HOTS things will be on equal grounds and the most hardworking players will win .
On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail?
Their mechanical skills have come from years of practise in BW . They are still way better then the foreigners and other lackluster koreans . No body is perfect and their multitasking will only get better as they understand the game better .
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On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail?
Or maybe this is a really complicated rts game and just because blizzard added a few short cuts doesn't mean anyone will "play perfect" anytime soon. Just because the perceived skill ceiling is lower in sc2 than bw doesn't mean anyone will ever actually reach it.
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On January 21 2013 18:43 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail? Or maybe this is a really complicated rts game and just because blizzard added a few short cuts doesn't mean anyone will "play perfect" anytime soon. Just because the perceived skill ceiling is lower in sc2 than bw doesn't mean anyone will ever actually reach it.
Exactly, this is my point.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I think KeSPA players need more time. Just recently in Jangbi's interview, he mentions that he finally understands how SCII is to be played. He talked about how you should keep on scouting and that he enjoys playing the game now. In other words, I think a decent portion of BW pros are still in the BW mindset. They loved BW and probably changes in SCII as a result so it's possible that some aren't putting in the effort(long hours) to get better or they are trying to play SCII like they did in BW but the game is vastly different. The hotkeys, stats, new units, army compositions, hard counters, defender's advantage, AI, etc... are just totally different. Once they eventually realize that like Jangbi, then it's possible we'll see even better games since I fail to see how someone like Bisu who is said to be a great multitasker could be failing so hard at SCII ><
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On January 21 2013 18:38 opterown wrote:
don't forget the epic fantasy-roro matches in code A.
Thank you, you had to remember me that game.
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On January 21 2013 18:43 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail? Or maybe this is a really complicated rts game and just because blizzard added a few short cuts doesn't mean anyone will "play perfect" anytime soon. Just because the perceived skill ceiling is lower in sc2 than bw doesn't mean anyone will ever actually reach it.
Lol you're saying the same thing as him.
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This was an almost perfect match for EGTL (finally!) but there's only one question mark: why did Stephano not build infestors for the entire 20+ min game v Argo? Stephano's bread is ZvP and his butter is infestors but he basically lost to a slow immortal push at the 20 min mark staying on tier 1 roach/hydras despite controlling the map, facing little pressure, macroing to 4 base, taking little econ dmg and maxing out. It was strange watching a match go past 20 mins where both players look like they had gotten stuck at the 10 min mark. Did I miss something? Or did Stephano?
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Well done to EGTL! Keep racking up those wins and climb that table. Hero was the er, Hero today, but other people will step up as they have done in previous matches.
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On January 21 2013 19:33 Evil_Sheep wrote:
This was an almost perfect match for EGTL (finally!) but there's only one question mark: why did Stephano not build infestors for the entire 20+ min game v Argo? Stephano's bread is ZvP and his butter is infestors but he basically lost to a slow immortal push at the 20 min mark staying on tier 1 roach/hydras despite controlling the map, facing little pressure, macroing to 4 base, taking little econ dmg and maxing out. It was strange watching a match go past 20 mins where both players look like they had gotten stuck at the 10 min mark. Did I miss something? Or did Stephano?
Whenever a Code S player loses to someone who is not in Code S, the standard excuse is 'saving his builds' for Code S. Obviously Stephano is 'saving his builds' for when he meets a Protoss in GSL. It is obvious, right?
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EPT
