[SPL] Team 8 vs EG-Liquid R2 - Page 54

On January 21 2013 23:45 Lightspeaker wrote:


Actually the entire point it was arguing was that it basically WOULD happen overnight because they were so much better. That was why the article was so offensive to a lot of people who were following SC2 and why the BW fans were revelling in it. I remember being absolutely disgusted by the attitude in it, and the subsequent elitist attitude of a lot of BW fans.

Of course since then it has been shown to be utter garbage. Still no attempt to withdraw the article though, or backtrack properly on the claims within, very much surprised at that. Its a huge shame really since it cast a horrible shadow over the excitement of KeSPA players starting to play SC2. Huge mistake to ever publish it.

On January 21 2013 19:46 crashonly wrote:
Oh man, Baby just can't catch a break.. He was playing well for a long time and then just completely fell apart at the end.

Also, sick micro against Jaehoon by HerO

On January 22 2013 00:15 BlazeFury01 wrote:


I don't think losing 2 stalkers to speed-less Zealots is sick micro lol

On January 22 2013 00:15 BlazeFury01 wrote:


I don't think losing 2 stalkers to speed-less Zealots is sick micro lol

On January 21 2013 23:58 SamsungStar wrote:


Backtrack properly? Huge shame? Horrible shadow? You think the Kespa fans would have been happier if their heroes all showed up to the SC2 scene eating humble pie and acting glad to have a chance to play a game that many of them considered vastly inferior to their beloved BW? You think that would have drawn more fans? The hell are you on about? Just cause the article hurt your feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't have been written. You don't understand the hearts of BW fans at all.

That article was a clarion call, a roar of defiance in the face of Blizzard's tyranny. None of us wanted to see our champions forced to play SC2. We wanted to keep watching them play BW. This site was founded on watching, discussing, and dreaming of becoming those guys. Why the hell would TL take an article like that down? Bad enough the teams and players were basically forced to change over, and the fans forced to accept the gruesome murder of their game, we also had to listen to the drivel of GSL fans who got into the scene scant months ago as they denigrated our legends and talked with absolutely zero understanding of the long and proud history of pro SC. Yet they got to enjoy all the fruits of labor, paid for by all the poor pros and dreamers of BW, who started out building the scene while eating nothing but ramen for weeks on end and sharing single apartments the size of a cardboard box. If you think for a single second that you have a foot to stand on in terms of being offended by the BW community or its antics, then I've got a thousand acres of swampland to sell you. Maybe it's an Asian thing, but I think SC fans should respect their damned elders.

And stop talking about shadows. You want to know what cast an ugly shadow on the SC2 scene? The way Blizzard outright destroyed the BW scene and tried to cannibalize its fanbase. Nobody's blaming the SC2 fans for what happened, but we're not going to change your diaper and tell you we love you either. You can choose to turn your head and ignore what BW fans say about how great their players are. But BW fans can't ignore the SC2 scene and go back to watching their game. Because it was taken away from them. There is a vast difference between those two situations. SC2 fans have absolutely nothing to complain about, other than the state of their game.

tl;dr: BW's gone. SC2's still here. Be happy you have your game. The BW fans don't. Stop bringing up the article. It's done with. Just talk about the games.

On January 21 2013 12:25 Lokerek wrote:
EG-TL 4-2 Unless they get stuck in traffic again.

On January 22 2013 00:15 BlazeFury01 wrote:


I don't think losing 2 stalkers to speed-less Zealots is sick micro lol

On January 21 2013 23:58 SamsungStar wrote:


Backtrack properly? Huge shame? Horrible shadow? You think the Kespa fans would have been happier if their heroes all showed up to the SC2 scene eating humble pie and acting glad to have a chance to play a game that many of them considered vastly inferior to their beloved BW? You think that would have drawn more fans? The hell are you on about? Just cause the article hurt your feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't have been written. You don't understand the hearts of BW fans at all.

That article was a clarion call, a roar of defiance in the face of Blizzard's tyranny. None of us wanted to see our champions forced to play SC2. We wanted to keep watching them play BW. This site was founded on watching, discussing, and dreaming of becoming those guys. Why the hell would TL take an article like that down? Bad enough the teams and players were basically forced to change over, and the fans forced to accept the gruesome murder of their game, we also had to listen to the drivel of GSL fans who got into the scene scant months ago as they denigrated our legends and talked with absolutely zero understanding of the long and proud history of pro SC. Yet they got to enjoy all the fruits of labor, paid for by all the poor pros and dreamers of BW, who started out building the scene while eating nothing but ramen for weeks on end and sharing single apartments the size of a cardboard box. If you think for a single second that you have a foot to stand on in terms of being offended by the BW community or its antics, then I've got a thousand acres of swampland to sell you. Maybe it's an Asian thing, but I think SC fans should respect their damned elders.

And stop talking about shadows. You want to know what cast an ugly shadow on the SC2 scene? The way Blizzard outright destroyed the BW scene and tried to cannibalize its fanbase. Nobody's blaming the SC2 fans for what happened, but we're not going to change your diaper and tell you we love you either. You can choose to turn your head and ignore what BW fans say about how great their players are. But BW fans can't ignore the SC2 scene and go back to watching their game. Because it was taken away from them. There is a vast difference between those two situations. SC2 fans have absolutely nothing to complain about, other than the state of their game.

tl;dr: BW's gone. SC2's still here. Be happy you have your game. The BW fans don't. Stop bringing up the article. It's done with. Just talk about the games.

On January 22 2013 06:08 HolyArrow wrote:


As far as I know, nobody wanted the BW pros to come over to the SC2 scene groveling at the feet of the current SC2 pros and eating humble pie, as you make it sound (and if anyone actually wanted that, I'd agree with you and say screw those people). What WOULD have been nice was just to see people being reasonable about things, which the Elephant article certainly wasn't. Reasonable means acknowledging the talent of BW pros, but also acknowledging the fact that SC2 is indeed a different game and though it may be easier than BW in certain respects, it also has factors that make it harder than BW in certain respects (such as punishing mistakes more, as people discussed earlier in this thread). Reasonable means realizing that despite the prodigious skill of the top BW players, SC2 is in the end, again, a different game, and maybe the best players of SC2 got there on perhaps a somewhat different skillset than what BW players have, because again, it's a different game, and just maybe, different games require different skillsets (even if it's just subtle differences; obviously SC2 and BW are the same genre and share many similarities). A concrete example of this would be the thread about Bisu's current SC2 performance, how his strengths are minified in SC2 while his weaknesses are magnified.

It's amazing that you're even seeing things that way because all you're talking about is how the SC2 scene should respect the BW scene. I guarantee you that most people in the SC2 scene had plenty of respect for the BW scene. I know I did. I was excited about seeing the BW players switch over, excited to see what they had to bring to the table, because I did acknowledge their superb mechanical abilities and such. And then the article happened. And what the article did was disrespect the SC2 scene in such an offensively elitist fashion that it CAUSED SC2 fans to start talking shit and resenting the BW scene due to how offensive and over-the-top the article was. The whole Elephant bullshit is what CAUSED the bitterness against the BW scene in the first place. It's what drew first blood, so to speak.

The bottom line is that if you want respect, you have to give some as well. And keep in mind that respect doesn't mean you have to like SC2 at all, or think that it's as good as BW. It just means that you shouldn't constantly condescend in regards to the skill level of the ESF players, regarding them as inferior players to the Kespa players, something that many BW fans seemed to be doing when the article's argument still had legs to stand on. And what I think respect also means is apologizing when you're blatantly wrong after writing/highly endorsing an extremely offensive article. It doesn't work to collectively shit all over the SC2 scene (essentially what the article did), not apologize in any way, and then turn around and incredulously ask for respect when the SC2 scene lashes back. And I sympathize with the concept of your favorite game dying and the players switching over to a game you don't even like/like less. But that doesn't give you free reign to just be a bitter, elitist snob all over the place.

And in regards to being annoyed that certain SC2 fans have little to zero understanding of BW history, why should they have any knowledge of it at all? News flash: This section of TL is the SC2 forum, not the BW forum. People in this section will mostly be SC2 fans. Maybe some of them are also BW fans and thus know their BW history, but it's ridiculous to get offended when people in the SC2 section of the website end up being ignorant about the history of a game that's not SC2, or ignorant about the accomplishments of players that aren't SC2 players. That would be like me going to the Dota 2 section of the site and getting mad because people don't know SC2 history. I for one got into progaming in general when SC2 came out, and though I know certain aspects of BW history, I'm not going to fucking spend hours on liquipedia educating myself just to placate the egos of BW fans with my reverence for BW history and culture. And again, I sympathize with how the game that you love is essentially gone, as I'm sure many other people do, but the bitter and elitist attitude that you and certain BW fans display quickly saps that sympathy dry.

On January 22 2013 06:08 HolyArrow wrote:


As far as I know, nobody wanted the BW pros to come over to the SC2 scene groveling at the feet of the current SC2 pros and eating humble pie, as you make it sound (and if anyone actually wanted that, I'd agree with you and say screw those people). What WOULD have been nice was just to see people being reasonable about things, which the Elephant article certainly wasn't. Reasonable means acknowledging the talent of BW pros, but also acknowledging the fact that SC2 is indeed a different game and though it may be easier than BW in certain respects, it also has factors that make it harder than BW in certain respects (such as punishing mistakes more, as people discussed earlier in this thread). Reasonable means realizing that despite the prodigious skill of the top BW players, SC2 is in the end, again, a different game, and maybe the best players of SC2 got there on perhaps a somewhat different skillset than what BW players have, because again, it's a different game, and just maybe, different games require different skillsets (even if it's just subtle differences; obviously SC2 and BW are the same genre and share many similarities). A concrete example of this would be the thread about Bisu's current SC2 performance, how his strengths are minified in SC2 while his weaknesses are magnified.

It's amazing that you're even seeing things that way because all you're talking about is how the SC2 scene should respect the BW scene. I guarantee you that most people in the SC2 scene had plenty of respect for the BW scene. I know I did. I was excited about seeing the BW players switch over, excited to see what they had to bring to the table, because I did acknowledge their superb mechanical abilities and such. And then the article happened. And what the article did was disrespect the SC2 scene in such an offensively elitist fashion that it CAUSED SC2 fans to start talking shit and resenting the BW scene due to how offensive and over-the-top the article was. The whole Elephant bullshit is what CAUSED the bitterness against the BW scene in the first place. It's what drew first blood, so to speak.

The bottom line is that if you want respect, you have to give some as well. And keep in mind that respect doesn't mean you have to like SC2 at all, or think that it's as good as BW. It just means that you shouldn't constantly condescend in regards to the skill level of the ESF players, regarding them as inferior players to the Kespa players, something that many BW fans seemed to be doing when the article's argument still had legs to stand on. And what I think respect also means is apologizing when you're blatantly wrong after writing/highly endorsing an extremely offensive article. It doesn't work to collectively shit all over the SC2 scene (essentially what the article did), not apologize in any way, and then turn around and incredulously ask for respect when the SC2 scene lashes back. And I sympathize with the concept of your favorite game dying and the players switching over to a game you don't even like/like less. But that doesn't give you free reign to just be a bitter, elitist snob all over the place.

And in regards to being annoyed that certain SC2 fans have little to zero understanding of BW history, why should they have any knowledge of it at all? News flash: This section of TL is the SC2 forum, not the BW forum. People in this section will mostly be SC2 fans. Maybe some of them are also BW fans and thus know their BW history, but it's ridiculous to get offended when people in the SC2 section of the website end up being ignorant about the history of a game that's not SC2, or ignorant about the accomplishments of players that aren't SC2 players. That would be like me going to the Dota 2 section of the site and getting mad because people don't know SC2 history. I for one got into progaming in general when SC2 came out, and though I know certain aspects of BW history, I'm not going to fucking spend hours on liquipedia educating myself just to placate the egos of BW fans with my reverence for BW history and culture. And again, I sympathize with how the game that you love is essentially gone, as I'm sure many other people do, but the bitter and elitist attitude that you and certain BW fans display quickly saps that sympathy dry.

On January 22 2013 06:08 HolyArrow wrote:


As far as I know, nobody wanted the BW pros to come over to the SC2 scene groveling at the feet of the current SC2 pros and eating humble pie, as you make it sound (and if anyone actually wanted that, I'd agree with you and say screw those people). What WOULD have been nice was just to see people being reasonable about things, which the Elephant article certainly wasn't. Reasonable means acknowledging the talent of BW pros, but also acknowledging the fact that SC2 is indeed a different game and though it may be easier than BW in certain respects, it also has factors that make it harder than BW in certain respects (such as punishing mistakes more, as people discussed earlier in this thread). Reasonable means realizing that despite the prodigious skill of the top BW players, SC2 is in the end, again, a different game, and maybe the best players of SC2 got there on perhaps a somewhat different skillset than what BW players have, because again, it's a different game, and just maybe, different games require different skillsets (even if it's just subtle differences; obviously SC2 and BW are the same genre and share many similarities). A concrete example of this would be the thread about Bisu's current SC2 performance, how his strengths are minified in SC2 while his weaknesses are magnified.

It's amazing that you're even seeing things that way because all you're talking about is how the SC2 scene should respect the BW scene. I guarantee you that most people in the SC2 scene had plenty of respect for the BW scene. I know I did. I was excited about seeing the BW players switch over, excited to see what they had to bring to the table, because I did acknowledge their superb mechanical abilities and such. And then the article happened. And what the article did was disrespect the SC2 scene in such an offensively elitist fashion that it CAUSED SC2 fans to start talking shit and resenting the BW scene due to how offensive and over-the-top the article was. The whole Elephant bullshit is what CAUSED the bitterness against the BW scene in the first place. It's what drew first blood, so to speak.

The bottom line is that if you want respect, you have to give some as well. And keep in mind that respect doesn't mean you have to like SC2 at all, or think that it's as good as BW. It just means that you shouldn't constantly condescend in regards to the skill level of the ESF players, regarding them as inferior players to the Kespa players, something that many BW fans seemed to be doing when the article's argument still had legs to stand on. And what I think respect also means is apologizing when you're blatantly wrong after writing/highly endorsing an extremely offensive article. It doesn't work to collectively shit all over the SC2 scene (essentially what the article did), not apologize in any way, and then turn around and incredulously ask for respect when the SC2 scene lashes back. And I sympathize with the concept of your favorite game dying and the players switching over to a game you don't even like/like less. But that doesn't give you free reign to just be a bitter, elitist snob all over the place.

And in regards to being annoyed that certain SC2 fans have little to zero understanding of BW history, why should they have any knowledge of it at all? News flash: This section of TL is the SC2 forum, not the BW forum. People in this section will mostly be SC2 fans. Maybe some of them are also BW fans and thus know their BW history, but it's ridiculous to get offended when people in the SC2 section of the website end up being ignorant about the history of a game that's not SC2, or ignorant about the accomplishments of players that aren't SC2 players. That would be like me going to the Dota 2 section of the site and getting mad because people don't know SC2 history. I for one got into progaming in general when SC2 came out, and though I know certain aspects of BW history, I'm not going to fucking spend hours on liquipedia educating myself just to placate the egos of BW fans with my reverence for BW history and culture. And again, I sympathize with how the game that you love is essentially gone, as I'm sure many other people do, but the bitter and elitist attitude that you and certain BW fans display quickly saps that sympathy dry.

On January 21 2013 12:25 Lokerek wrote:
EG-TL 4-2 Unless they get stuck in traffic again.