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On January 21 2013 19:35 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 19:33 Evil_Sheep wrote:
This was an almost perfect match for EGTL (finally!) but there's only one question mark: why did Stephano not build infestors for the entire 20+ min game v Argo? Stephano's bread is ZvP and his butter is infestors but he basically lost to a slow immortal push at the 20 min mark staying on tier 1 roach/hydras despite controlling the map, facing little pressure, macroing to 4 base, taking little econ dmg and maxing out. It was strange watching a match go past 20 mins where both players look like they had gotten stuck at the 10 min mark. Did I miss something? Or did Stephano? Whenever a Code S player loses to someone who is not in Code S, the standard excuse is 'saving his builds' for Code S. Obviously Stephano is 'saving his builds' for when he meets a Protoss in GSL. It is obvious, right?
saving builds on antiga will help him in Code S
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hero ma boy my fpl captain, im proud :D
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On January 21 2013 19:33 Evil_Sheep wrote:
This was an almost perfect match for EGTL (finally!) but there's only one question mark: why did Stephano not build infestors for the entire 20+ min game v Argo? Stephano's bread is ZvP and his butter is infestors but he basically lost to a slow immortal push at the 20 min mark staying on tier 1 roach/hydras despite controlling the map, facing little pressure, macroing to 4 base, taking little econ dmg and maxing out. It was strange watching a match go past 20 mins where both players look like they had gotten stuck at the 10 min mark. Did I miss something? Or did Stephano?
Aren't Hydras like t2... also I did not watch the match as I tuned in too late, but I am quite sure that a reasonable man will at least try alternatives when infestors are not the uncontested all time solution anymore.
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Oh man, Baby just can't catch a break.. He was playing well for a long time and then just completely fell apart at the end.
Also, sick micro against Jaehoon by HerO 
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Why are you donating games t8? damn.
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On January 21 2013 19:46 crashonly wrote:Also, sick micro against Jaehoon by HerO
Yeah that was ridiculous, perfect micro.
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On January 21 2013 19:33 Evil_Sheep wrote:
This was an almost perfect match for EGTL (finally!) but there's only one question mark: why did Stephano not build infestors for the entire 20+ min game v Argo? Stephano's bread is ZvP and his butter is infestors but he basically lost to a slow immortal push at the 20 min mark staying on tier 1 roach/hydras despite controlling the map, facing little pressure, macroing to 4 base, taking little econ dmg and maxing out. It was strange watching a match go past 20 mins where both players look like they had gotten stuck at the 10 min mark. Did I miss something? Or did Stephano?
I think Jaehoon was playing really well. Not commiting with his first push, not being greedy then, and perfectly controling engagements. He has been preventing Stephano to take good engagements with flanks all game long.
Since Stephano was commiting into roaches hydras to prevent a third base, and keep map control he couldn't really switch. Anyway I think Stephano didn't play that good, hydra is a questionable choice, and since he forgot the range it couldn't work at all. I'm pretty sure game would have gone better for Stephano if he had hydra's range, because hydras would have actually been attacking, not randomly being stuck behind forcefields.
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On January 21 2013 17:43 Proseat wrote:Well done, HerO!  Take that, woongjin taxi driver! Scoring: EGTL +3 Jaedong +3 Jaehoon +4 HerO +9 all other EGTL players +1
HerO with the 2SB 3K closer.
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On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail?
Yeah. And I think when people talk about the skill ceiling, mechanics, multi task, etc. They sometimes neglect that SC2 punishes 'mistakes/mismicro' much harder than BW. Of course, in BW, you can lose due to some mismicro (losing shuttle/reaver, etc) in the early game. But when you settle in a macro game, it becomes a 'series' of engagement. So if you mismicro in one of the engagements, you will fall behind and be at a disadvantage. But you will still have a chance to come back. In SC2, due to the 'deathball' nature, even 1 bad mismicro in the late game can cost you the game without a chance for come back. So in a way, 'mistakes' are magnified in SC2.
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On January 21 2013 21:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail? Yeah. And I think when people talk about the skill ceiling, mechanics, multi task, etc. They sometimes neglect that SC2 punishes 'mistakes/mismicro' much harder than BW. Of course, in BW, you can lose due to some mismicro (losing shuttle/reaver, etc) in the early game. But when you settle in a macro game, it becomes a 'series' of engagement. So if you mismicro in one of the engagements, you will fall behind and be at a disadvantage. But you will still have a chance to come back. In SC2, due to the 'deathball' nature, even 1 bad mismicro in the late game can cost you the game without a chance for come back. So in a way, 'mistakes' are magnified in SC2.
Just no to the first guy. Totally not taking into consideration the fact these guys STILL don't understand the game. Jangbi just said in an interview he just found out how to play protoss in late game. The reason their mechanics aren't good right now is because mentally they're occupied with thinking about what to do next. They're not at a level of comfort and experience yet to do those things on autopilot so they can focus on control. When you don't know what to do, your time is going to be spent on figuring that out, and not on execution. The GSL players don't have that problem because they've been playing way longer. Once the Kespa players figure this game out, you're going to see a dramatic difference.
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how long will it take until the kespa players figure this game out? hots is out soon lol
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Good thoughts in here....SC2 is another game and the ones who played this game for longer plus have talent in that area of RTS are the best. If you want to become the best in something you have to do it every day, over and over again and the ones who did that for the longest period of time will dominate in regard to SC2. The "elephants" have proven many years that they have talent but not in SC2. That is what they are proving right now.
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Wow just watched Hero vs Argo. Even with Argo's mistake, that was insane micro to watch by Hero.
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On January 21 2013 18:04 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 17:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Seeing baby use the supply drops really shows that he is still in experimentation mode and it could take much longer then we expected for the Kespa players do dominate. At this point I think taking for granted that it will happen at all is a mistake. The Elephant Theory is so dead it's fossilized.
When the article first appeared, people were talking about how it was horseshit - then Mvp won 4 GSLs. KeSPA players know how to play, they just need time to refine their play - like Mvp, MC, NesTea had. I don't think anyone was claiming it would happen overnight.
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LOL I guess Hero beat the traffic this time haha
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On January 21 2013 22:09 SamsungStar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 21:19 vthree wrote:On January 21 2013 18:37 sitromit wrote:
I honestly think the mechanical skills of the BW pros, and how easy it would be for them to have perfect mechanics in SC2 because OMG you can select multiple buildings etc was significantly exaggerated. Watching the KesPA guys, some of them have really bad mechanics, and fail at multitasking quite often. Even those who have really good mechanics, like Jaedong, have failed at some fundamental things, like watching the minimap when a Nydus is being built inside your base, within your vision, twice in one game.
There was a ZvZ where ZerO was trying to do some kind of all-innish ling bane aggression on Tal'Darim, and he had a bunch of Lings rallied, sitting idle, which he completely forgot near his opponent's base for a significant amount of time. Against Stephano the other day when he lost, he had a ton of resources piling up, when he had larvae, as he was behind on supply before he built more Roaches, but he fought with a smaller army during that window and lost because of it.
I've noticed a lot of examples like this, too many to count really. Baby forgetting his Vikings today, what can we call that if not multitasking fail? Yeah. And I think when people talk about the skill ceiling, mechanics, multi task, etc. They sometimes neglect that SC2 punishes 'mistakes/mismicro' much harder than BW. Of course, in BW, you can lose due to some mismicro (losing shuttle/reaver, etc) in the early game. But when you settle in a macro game, it becomes a 'series' of engagement. So if you mismicro in one of the engagements, you will fall behind and be at a disadvantage. But you will still have a chance to come back. In SC2, due to the 'deathball' nature, even 1 bad mismicro in the late game can cost you the game without a chance for come back. So in a way, 'mistakes' are magnified in SC2. Just no to the first guy. Totally not taking into consideration the fact these guys STILL don't understand the game. Jangbi just said in an interview he just found out how to play protoss in late game. The reason their mechanics aren't good right now is because mentally they're occupied with thinking about what to do next. They're not at a level of comfort and experience yet to do those things on autopilot so they can focus on control. When you don't know what to do, your time is going to be spent on figuring that out, and not on execution. The GSL players don't have that problem because they've been playing way longer. Once the Kespa players figure this game out, you're going to see a dramatic difference.
I don't think I can fully buy that. Argo's terrible micro vs Hero had nothing to do with Argo being mentally maxed on thinking about how to 2gate. Having 3 zealots run across the map when he literally only had 5 units hurt to watch. However, I rarely watch PL so this may have been a rare anomaly.
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On January 21 2013 22:45 hangarninetysix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:04 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Seeing baby use the supply drops really shows that he is still in experimentation mode and it could take much longer then we expected for the Kespa players do dominate. At this point I think taking for granted that it will happen at all is a mistake. The Elephant Theory is so dead it's fossilized. When the article first appeared, people were talking about how it was horseshit - then Mvp won 4 GSLs. KeSPA players know how to play, they just need time to refine their play - like Mvp, MC, NesTea had. I don't think anyone was claiming it would happen overnight.
The original article stated that MVP was a B-Teamer nobody, and that the BW legends would make everyone look like shit within a month or two.
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On January 21 2013 22:45 hangarninetysix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:04 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Seeing baby use the supply drops really shows that he is still in experimentation mode and it could take much longer then we expected for the Kespa players do dominate. At this point I think taking for granted that it will happen at all is a mistake. The Elephant Theory is so dead it's fossilized. When the article first appeared, people were talking about how it was horseshit - then Mvp won 4 GSLs. KeSPA players know how to play, they just need time to refine their play - like Mvp, MC, NesTea had. I don't think anyone was claiming it would happen overnight.
Actually the entire point it was arguing was that it basically WOULD happen overnight because they were so much better. That was why the article was so offensive to a lot of people who were following SC2 and why the BW fans were revelling in it. I remember being absolutely disgusted by the attitude in it, and the subsequent elitist attitude of a lot of BW fans.
Of course since then it has been shown to be utter garbage. Still no attempt to withdraw the article though, or backtrack properly on the claims within, very much surprised at that. Its a huge shame really since it cast a horrible shadow over the excitement of KeSPA players starting to play SC2. Huge mistake to ever publish it.
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On January 21 2013 23:45 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 22:45 hangarninetysix wrote:On January 21 2013 18:04 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Seeing baby use the supply drops really shows that he is still in experimentation mode and it could take much longer then we expected for the Kespa players do dominate. At this point I think taking for granted that it will happen at all is a mistake. The Elephant Theory is so dead it's fossilized. When the article first appeared, people were talking about how it was horseshit - then Mvp won 4 GSLs. KeSPA players know how to play, they just need time to refine their play - like Mvp, MC, NesTea had. I don't think anyone was claiming it would happen overnight. Actually the entire point it was arguing was that it basically WOULD happen overnight because they were so much better. That was why the article was so offensive to a lot of people who were following SC2 and why the BW fans were revelling in it. I remember being absolutely disgusted by the attitude in it, and the subsequent elitist attitude of a lot of BW fans. Of course since then it has been shown to be utter garbage. Still no attempt to withdraw the article though, or backtrack properly on the claims within, very much surprised at that. Its a huge shame really since it cast a horrible shadow over the excitement of KeSPA players starting to play SC2. Huge mistake to ever publish it.
Yup. And remember when Kespa players started out doing really well in WCS Korea shortly after the switch? Every LR was filled with pictures of elephants when Kespa won. And quite a few of the BW fans predicted that Code S in Season 5 would be dominated by Kespa. Obviously, that did not happen. What is happening is the Kespa players are gradually improving with more practice. But they are not so much more talented than the eSF players that they can just take over after a few months.
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On January 21 2013 23:45 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 22:45 hangarninetysix wrote:On January 21 2013 18:04 forsooth wrote:On January 21 2013 17:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Seeing baby use the supply drops really shows that he is still in experimentation mode and it could take much longer then we expected for the Kespa players do dominate. At this point I think taking for granted that it will happen at all is a mistake. The Elephant Theory is so dead it's fossilized. When the article first appeared, people were talking about how it was horseshit - then Mvp won 4 GSLs. KeSPA players know how to play, they just need time to refine their play - like Mvp, MC, NesTea had. I don't think anyone was claiming it would happen overnight. Actually the entire point it was arguing was that it basically WOULD happen overnight because they were so much better. That was why the article was so offensive to a lot of people who were following SC2 and why the BW fans were revelling in it. I remember being absolutely disgusted by the attitude in it, and the subsequent elitist attitude of a lot of BW fans. Of course since then it has been shown to be utter garbage. Still no attempt to withdraw the article though, or backtrack properly on the claims within, very much surprised at that. Its a huge shame really since it cast a horrible shadow over the excitement of KeSPA players starting to play SC2. Huge mistake to ever publish it.
Backtrack properly? Huge shame? Horrible shadow? You think the Kespa fans would have been happier if their heroes all showed up to the SC2 scene eating humble pie and acting glad to have a chance to play a game that many of them considered vastly inferior to their beloved BW? You think that would have drawn more fans? The hell are you on about? Just cause the article hurt your feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't have been written. You don't understand the hearts of BW fans at all.
That article was a clarion call, a roar of defiance in the face of Blizzard's tyranny. None of us wanted to see our champions forced to play SC2. We wanted to keep watching them play BW. This site was founded on watching, discussing, and dreaming of becoming those guys. Why the hell would TL take an article like that down? Bad enough the teams and players were basically forced to change over, and the fans forced to accept the gruesome murder of their game, we also had to listen to the drivel of GSL fans who got into the scene scant months ago as they denigrated our legends and talked with absolutely zero understanding of the long and proud history of pro SC. Yet they got to enjoy all the fruits of labor, paid for by all the poor pros and dreamers of BW, who started out building the scene while eating nothing but ramen for weeks on end and sharing single apartments the size of a cardboard box. If you think for a single second that you have a foot to stand on in terms of being offended by the BW community or its antics, then I've got a thousand acres of swampland to sell you. Maybe it's an Asian thing, but I think SC fans should respect their damned elders.
And stop talking about shadows. You want to know what cast an ugly shadow on the SC2 scene? The way Blizzard outright destroyed the BW scene and tried to cannibalize its fanbase. Nobody's blaming the SC2 fans for what happened, but we're not going to change your diaper and tell you we love you either. You can choose to turn your head and ignore what BW fans say about how great their players are. But BW fans can't ignore the SC2 scene and go back to watching their game. Because it was taken away from them. There is a vast difference between those two situations. SC2 fans have absolutely nothing to complain about, other than the state of their game.
tl;dr: BW's gone. SC2's still here. Be happy you have your game. The BW fans don't. Stop bringing up the article. It's done with. Just talk about the games.
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EPT
