[SPL] Team 8 vs EG-Liquid R2 - Page 55

On January 22 2013 08:17 SamsungStar wrote:
However, I think your argument about respect being a two way street is misguided. SC2 was created because of the popularity of BW and the passion of its fans. Not the other way around. BW is the big brother. There will never be equal ground here. I don't understand why you think SC2 should automatically get the same respect. Ofc SC2 fans should respect BW. It's the original and the founder. SC2 is the upstart, the ugly adopted child that has been forcibly shoved into the BW family. You're bitter about one article written by one guy? Can you even conceive of how BW fans felt seeing their entire scene utterly obliterated and forced to convert to SC2? And you think the article drew first blood? Hell no. Blizzard drew first blood when they crushed the BW scene with their horde of lawyers. And at that point, supporting SC2 was tantamount to supporting Blizzard, the assholes who destroyed the BW scene. So why would you be surprised when a large number of BW fans are bitter and insulting towards SC2? Their anger is towards Blizzard and the game they liked better being taken away. Everything stems from this anger.

Blizz created BW, but they didn't create the pro scene whatsoever. That was down to Boxer and his contemporaries and the Kespa organization. There was no concept of esports before they came about. You would not be able to enjoy any of what you see today without BW and the people invested in the BW scene. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2 communities. Everything SC2 has was built on the back of the BW scene, so no, the SC2 scene is not going to get the same level of respect. Respect is not traded back and forth like a pouch of glass beads. Respect is earned. BW earned it ten times over. What has the SC2 scene done so far to stake its claim in the esports world? Has it done anything other than provide a pale approximation of what BW used to be? There hasn't even been any compelling storylines in the GSL tournies yet. What do we have? MC's trash talk? MKP crash and burning? MVP doing the opposite? Zergs who win once and disappear? Where's the rivalry? Where are the dynasties? Where are the 8 dragons, the TBLS, the Savior, the gorillaterran, the emperor, the SKT1 vs KTs? There's none of that because the scene is young and really has nothing special about it yet other than some money's been poured in and kids are playing it. Stop expecting the same level of respect when your game's scene hasn't even taken off its diapers yet.

Why should SC2 fans have knowledge of BW? Why are you taught American history in class? What kind of question is that? BW history is the history of esports. When you watch SC2 you are watching esports. You should at least have a basic understanding of what happened. Especially when those historical figures continue to play in the SC2 scene and will soon be actively entering GSL, etc. In essence, the only way your argument makes sense is if you're operating from a position of blatant ignorance, which coincidentally is exactly what you're doing. So, carry on I guess. I'm not going to sit here and try to twist anyone's arm into learning about BW. But I also don't think you should cry about what others are doing if you don't take the time to understand why they're doing it.

On January 22 2013 08:17 SamsungStar wrote:
One person wrote the elephant article, not the entire BW community. So your bitterness is misplaced. Especially towards me. Because I was just explaining why the article came out the way it did and why the BW fans were bitter. I said nothing about agreeing with it.

However, I think your argument about respect being a two way street is misguided. SC2 was created because of the popularity of BW and the passion of its fans. Not the other way around. BW is the big brother. There will never be equal ground here. I don't understand why you think SC2 should automatically get the same respect. Ofc SC2 fans should respect BW. It's the original and the founder. SC2 is the upstart, the ugly adopted child that has been forcibly shoved into the BW family. You're bitter about one article written by one guy? Can you even conceive of how BW fans felt seeing their entire scene utterly obliterated and forced to convert to SC2? And you think the article drew first blood? Hell no. Blizzard drew first blood when they crushed the BW scene with their horde of lawyers. And at that point, supporting SC2 was tantamount to supporting Blizzard, the assholes who destroyed the BW scene. So why would you be surprised when a large number of BW fans are bitter and insulting towards SC2? Their anger is towards Blizzard and the game they liked better being taken away. Everything stems from this anger.

Blizz created BW, but they didn't create the pro scene whatsoever. That was down to Boxer and his contemporaries and the Kespa organization. There was no concept of esports before they came about. You would not be able to enjoy any of what you see today without BW and the people invested in the BW scene. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2 communities. Everything SC2 has was built on the back of the BW scene, so no, the SC2 scene is not going to get the same level of respect. Respect is not traded back and forth like a pouch of glass beads. Respect is earned. BW earned it ten times over. What has the SC2 scene done so far to stake its claim in the esports world? Has it done anything other than provide a pale approximation of what BW used to be? There hasn't even been any compelling storylines in the GSL tournies yet. What do we have? MC's trash talk? MKP crash and burning? MVP doing the opposite? Zergs who win once and disappear? Where's the rivalry? Where are the dynasties? Where are the 8 dragons, the TBLS, the Savior, the gorillaterran, the emperor, the SKT1 vs KTs? There's none of that because the scene is young and really has nothing special about it yet other than some money's been poured in and kids are playing it. Stop expecting the same level of respect when your game's scene hasn't even taken off its diapers yet.

Why should SC2 fans have knowledge of BW? Why are you taught American history in class? What kind of question is that? BW history is the history of esports. When you watch SC2 you are watching esports. You should at least have a basic understanding of what happened. Especially when those historical figures continue to play in the SC2 scene and will soon be actively entering GSL, etc. In essence, the only way your argument makes sense is if you're operating from a position of blatant ignorance, which coincidentally is exactly what you're doing. So, carry on I guess. I'm not going to sit here and try to twist anyone's arm into learning about BW. But I also don't think you should cry about what others are doing if you don't take the time to understand why they're doing it.

On January 22 2013 09:09 TeslasPigeon wrote:
I'm sad that Zenio isn't playing as often as he use to at the beginning of PL.

On January 22 2013 08:17 SamsungStar wrote:
One person wrote the elephant article, not the entire BW community. So your bitterness is misplaced. Especially towards me. Because I was just explaining why the article came out the way it did and why the BW fans were bitter. I said nothing about agreeing with it.

However, I think your argument about respect being a two way street is misguided. SC2 was created because of the popularity of BW and the passion of its fans. Not the other way around. BW is the big brother. There will never be equal ground here. I don't understand why you think SC2 should automatically get the same respect. Ofc SC2 fans should respect BW. It's the original and the founder. SC2 is the upstart, the ugly adopted child that has been forcibly shoved into the BW family. You're bitter about one article written by one guy? Can you even conceive of how BW fans felt seeing their entire scene utterly obliterated and forced to convert to SC2? And you think the article drew first blood? Hell no. Blizzard drew first blood when they crushed the BW scene with their horde of lawyers. And at that point, supporting SC2 was tantamount to supporting Blizzard, the assholes who destroyed the BW scene. So why would you be surprised when a large number of BW fans are bitter and insulting towards SC2? Their anger is towards Blizzard and the game they liked better being taken away. Everything stems from this anger.

Blizz created BW, but they didn't create the pro scene whatsoever. That was down to Boxer and his contemporaries and the Kespa organization. There was no concept of esports before they came about. You would not be able to enjoy any of what you see today without BW and the people invested in the BW scene. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2 communities. Everything SC2 has was built on the back of the BW scene, so no, the SC2 scene is not going to get the same level of respect. Respect is not traded back and forth like a pouch of glass beads. Respect is earned. BW earned it ten times over. What has the SC2 scene done so far to stake its claim in the esports world? Has it done anything other than provide a pale approximation of what BW used to be? There hasn't even been any compelling storylines in the GSL tournies yet. What do we have? MC's trash talk? MKP crash and burning? MVP doing the opposite? Zergs who win once and disappear? Where's the rivalry? Where are the dynasties? Where are the 8 dragons, the TBLS, the Savior, the gorillaterran, the emperor, the SKT1 vs KTs? There's none of that because the scene is young and really has nothing special about it yet other than some money's been poured in and kids are playing it. Stop expecting the same level of respect when your game's scene hasn't even taken off its diapers yet.

Why should SC2 fans have knowledge of BW? Why are you taught American history in class? What kind of question is that? BW history is the history of esports. When you watch SC2 you are watching esports. You should at least have a basic understanding of what happened. Especially when those historical figures continue to play in the SC2 scene and will soon be actively entering GSL, etc. In essence, the only way your argument makes sense is if you're operating from a position of blatant ignorance, which coincidentally is exactly what you're doing. So, carry on I guess. I'm not going to sit here and try to twist anyone's arm into learning about BW. But I also don't think you should cry about what others are doing if you don't take the time to understand why they're doing it.

On January 22 2013 09:29 mrtomjones wrote:

The tone of this entire piece shows you believe the tone of the Elephant article. Just because BW came first does not mean that SC2 and its fans should not get the same respect. BW should always be respected because without it SC2 would not be around but that does not mean SC2 is any less deserving of respect. BW would have ended up as it is with or without SC2 so at least some of its fans now have another thing to follow.

On January 22 2013 08:58 Emzeeshady wrote:

You seem almost too bias to possibly learn anything. SC2 is ginormous in the foreign world compared to Brood War and it lead the charge in making ESports what it is today. In 10 years SC2 will be remembered as THE game bringing E Sports to a wider audience. Forget Korea. SC2 has a world full of enthusiastic fans and the best is yet to come.

On January 22 2013 09:00 Emzeeshady wrote:
And btw your comments along with many other annoying BW fans are destroying the reputation and the memory of the BW community

On January 22 2013 08:17 SamsungStar wrote:
One person wrote the elephant article, not the entire BW community. So your bitterness is misplaced. Especially towards me. Because I was just explaining why the article came out the way it did and why the BW fans were bitter. I said nothing about agreeing with it.

However, I think your argument about respect being a two way street is misguided. SC2 was created because of the popularity of BW and the passion of its fans. Not the other way around. BW is the big brother. There will never be equal ground here. I don't understand why you think SC2 should automatically get the same respect. Ofc SC2 fans should respect BW. It's the original and the founder. SC2 is the upstart, the ugly adopted child that has been forcibly shoved into the BW family. You're bitter about one article written by one guy? Can you even conceive of how BW fans felt seeing their entire scene utterly obliterated and forced to convert to SC2? And you think the article drew first blood? Hell no. Blizzard drew first blood when they crushed the BW scene with their horde of lawyers. And at that point, supporting SC2 was tantamount to supporting Blizzard, the assholes who destroyed the BW scene. So why would you be surprised when a large number of BW fans are bitter and insulting towards SC2? Their anger is towards Blizzard and the game they liked better being taken away. Everything stems from this anger.

Blizz created BW, but they didn't create the pro scene whatsoever. That was down to Boxer and his contemporaries and the Kespa organization. There was no concept of esports before they came about. You would not be able to enjoy any of what you see today without BW and the people invested in the BW scene. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2 communities. Everything SC2 has was built on the back of the BW scene, so no, the SC2 scene is not going to get the same level of respect. Respect is not traded back and forth like a pouch of glass beads. Respect is earned. BW earned it ten times over. What has the SC2 scene done so far to stake its claim in the esports world? Has it done anything other than provide a pale approximation of what BW used to be? There hasn't even been any compelling storylines in the GSL tournies yet. What do we have? MC's trash talk? MKP crash and burning? MVP doing the opposite? Zergs who win once and disappear? Where's the rivalry? Where are the dynasties? Where are the 8 dragons, the TBLS, the Savior, the gorillaterran, the emperor, the SKT1 vs KTs? There's none of that because the scene is young and really has nothing special about it yet other than some money's been poured in and kids are playing it. Stop expecting the same level of respect when your game's scene hasn't even taken off its diapers yet.

Why should SC2 fans have knowledge of BW? Why are you taught American history in class? What kind of question is that? BW history is the history of esports. When you watch SC2 you are watching esports. You should at least have a basic understanding of what happened. Especially when those historical figures continue to play in the SC2 scene and will soon be actively entering GSL, etc. In essence, the only way your argument makes sense is if you're operating from a position of blatant ignorance, which coincidentally is exactly what you're doing. So, carry on I guess. I'm not going to sit here and try to twist anyone's arm into learning about BW. But I also don't think you should cry about what others are doing if you don't take the time to understand why they're doing it.

On January 22 2013 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:


Lol it looks like there's no reasoning with you, someone that deep down the rabbit hole. And the delicious irony of it is that you claim that respect needs to be earned; yet you fail to account for the possibility that respect is earned subjectively, rather than through some sort of objective standard of having a rich history and seniority that you imply. And thus, while you trumpet the need for respect to be earned, you fail to consider the possibility that for many SC2 fans, respect is earned from them just by representing your scene as a reasonable, down-to-earth fan, rather than an insufferable BW elitist with his head way up his ass. So again, don't have the sheer audacity to ask for respect from the SC2 community, claim that respect needs to be earned, yet do nothing to earn our respect. I hope you do realize that the attitude that you display is doing NO favors for your precious BW scene. You want everyone to love and respect it, yet you represent it in such a hilariously unlikeable fashion through your crappy elitist attitude that no one's going to want to listen to you. And that's really too bad, because I do realize that BW has an extremely rich and awesome history, yet my appreciation of it is soured by the bitter taste of shitty elitist attitudes like yours.

Also, by your logic, any e-sports fan should have knowledge of BW. So why don't you go try telling fans of Dota, LoL, Halo, Counterstrike, Street Fighter, and all these other games, games that aren't even RTSes, fans that don't give two shits about BW or SC2, that they should have knowledge of BW history? Because it'll be hilarious seeing you get laughed at. And while we're at it, maybe you should go educate yourself heavily on the history of video games, on the creation of all those ancient games on ancient consoles way back in the 70s, because BW is a video game, and there was no concept of "video games" before those 40+ year-old games came out. Maybe now you realize how ridiculous you sound. If I was a BW fan, I'd be embarrassed by how you're representing my scene.

On January 22 2013 06:08 HolyArrow wrote:


As far as I know, nobody wanted the BW pros to come over to the SC2 scene groveling at the feet of the current SC2 pros and eating humble pie, as you make it sound (and if anyone actually wanted that, I'd agree with you and say screw those people). What WOULD have been nice was just to see people being reasonable about things, which the Elephant article certainly wasn't. Reasonable means acknowledging the talent of BW pros, but also acknowledging the fact that SC2 is indeed a different game and though it may be easier than BW in certain respects, it also has factors that make it harder than BW in certain respects (such as punishing mistakes more, as people discussed earlier in this thread). Reasonable means realizing that despite the prodigious skill of the top BW players, SC2 is in the end, again, a different game, and maybe the best players of SC2 got there on perhaps a somewhat different skillset than what BW players have, because again, it's a different game, and just maybe, different games require different skillsets (even if it's just subtle differences; obviously SC2 and BW are the same genre and share many similarities). A concrete example of this would be the thread about Bisu's current SC2 performance, how his strengths are minified in SC2 while his weaknesses are magnified.

It's amazing that you're even seeing things that way because all you're talking about is how the SC2 scene should respect the BW scene. I guarantee you that most people in the SC2 scene had plenty of respect for the BW scene. I know I did. I was excited about seeing the BW players switch over, excited to see what they had to bring to the table, because I did acknowledge their superb mechanical abilities and such. And then the article happened. And what the article did was disrespect the SC2 scene in such an offensively elitist fashion that it CAUSED SC2 fans to start talking shit and resenting the BW scene due to how offensive and over-the-top the article was. The whole Elephant bullshit is what CAUSED the bitterness against the BW scene in the first place. It's what drew first blood, so to speak.

The bottom line is that if you want respect, you have to give some as well. And keep in mind that respect doesn't mean you have to like SC2 at all, or think that it's as good as BW. It just means that you shouldn't constantly condescend in regards to the skill level of the ESF players, regarding them as inferior players to the Kespa players, something that many BW fans seemed to be doing when the article's argument still had legs to stand on. And what I think respect also means is apologizing when you're blatantly wrong after writing/highly endorsing an extremely offensive article. It doesn't work to collectively shit all over the SC2 scene (essentially what the article did), not apologize in any way, and then turn around and incredulously ask for respect when the SC2 scene lashes back. And I sympathize with the concept of your favorite game dying and the players switching over to a game you don't even like/like less. But that doesn't give you free reign to just be a bitter, elitist snob all over the place.

And in regards to being annoyed that certain SC2 fans have little to zero understanding of BW history, why should they have any knowledge of it at all? News flash: This section of TL is the SC2 forum, not the BW forum. People in this section will mostly be SC2 fans. Maybe some of them are also BW fans and thus know their BW history, but it's ridiculous to get offended when people in the SC2 section of the website end up being ignorant about the history of a game that's not SC2, or ignorant about the accomplishments of players that aren't SC2 players. That would be like me going to the Dota 2 section of the site and getting mad because people don't know SC2 history. I for one got into progaming in general when SC2 came out, and though I know certain aspects of BW history, I'm not going to fucking spend hours on liquipedia educating myself just to placate the egos of BW fans with my reverence for BW history and culture. And again, I sympathize with how the game that you love is essentially gone, as I'm sure many other people do, but the bitter and elitist attitude that you and certain BW fans display quickly saps that sympathy dry.

On January 23 2013 03:27 samuraibael wrote:
People need to remember that when that article was written, the level of play in sc2 was much lower than it is today. Macro was average, micro sloppy and multitask almost nonexistant. It was extremely frustrating to watch that after becoming accustomed to the professionalism of broodwar. That is why that article was written. And it was right. Kespa players would have dominated that scene had they been playing in it rather than the old washed up bw players that actually did dominate it. Thats obvious.
Now with a higher standard of play its largely irrelevant. I dont know why we keep seeing references to it.