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On December 20 2012 20:31 Boiler Bandsman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:29 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. Posts like this kill my brain. Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
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On December 20 2012 20:35 Douillos wrote:
How is this all in working in HOTs beta btw?
i dont see a reason why it would be weaker. if you cant get infestor tech out in time without dying i dont see how zerg could get hydra speed or viper etc
on top of it mothership core should help a TON vs zerg backstabs in your natural with planetary nexus
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:33 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:31 Shellshock1122 wrote:On December 20 2012 20:30 massivez wrote:
So whoever wins the final should be labeled as the best player of 2012:o? GOM does it. It's kind of funny though if you look at last year Best Terran:  Mvp Best Zerg:  NesTea Best Protoss:  MC Best Player 2011: MMA wait what? how can mma be best player when Mvp was best terran? silly Gom Wait what? I'm pretty sure Mvp won the best player of 2011 award.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_GSL_Blizzard_Cup
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On December 20 2012 20:33 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:32 Loccstana wrote:
In the next patch, Blizzard will be considering how to nerf sentrys. doubtful. if they didnt change sentries after MC made everyone think they were imba for 3 months back then they wont change it now
Of course they can, but they have HOTS to worry about.
Nothing prevents them from reducing the range of the spell from 9 to 7 or even 6, which would make sentries tough to work with offensively.
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On December 20 2012 20:31 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:27 Chocobo wrote:On December 20 2012 20:21 Jacmert wrote:On December 20 2012 20:21 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 20 2012 20:20 MorroW wrote:
lool hilarious how broken that build is it might be broken but partings execution is near flawless. I'm starting to think you can't use conventional Roach tech to beat a "perfectly" executed Immortal sentry all-in. You absolutely cannot. Sniper was 99.9% perfect in game 3, killed several pylons, got a huge surround... and got completely crushed, it wasn't even close. But what are the unconvential options? Nydus was a good idea from Sniper, but Parting knows that's one of the only things that beats him, so he always checks for it. Mutas aren't an option... I don't think hydras will get it done when chopped up by forcefields either. IMO it has to be a basetrade. Counterattack with burrow roaches, or with drops (not sure if you can get drops and a large army in time though). But when the best zerg players in the world are getting stomped like this, and it's considered a fluke when someone actually holds it... clearly trying to hold the attack is a bad idea. Better counter-allins need to be found, because standard play is not working whatsoever. But exactly what corners is Parting cutting in the early game, if any? Would it be better for zerg to just to some kind of roach pressure, baneling bust, to make sure the game gets thrown of its normal path and timing making the game more about improvising and thinking on your feet.
Parting skips the Z and goes straight to the Stalker, often not even in the wall blocking.
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On December 20 2012 20:32 Noc- wrote:
So the build is broken and Protoss should be nerfed just because one player does everything perfectly and has godly micro.
You are wrong! Protoss is imba because the best player can have a decent winrate with an all-in against zergs going up to three hatcheries before pool or gas! Why should zerg be forced to do anything else than build workers? Game is broken.
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On December 20 2012 20:35 Douillos wrote:
How is this all in working in HOTs beta btw?
Before this most recent patch, it's been Mothership Core/Blink all-ins.
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On December 20 2012 20:35 Jacmert wrote:
Maybe Sniper should have used his Nydus build to hit Parting's main or natural AFTER Parting started to move out with his sentry/immortal all-in. He'd probably need at least two (probably more like 3 or 4) simultaneous Nydus' to ensure that at least one could get up and running, but could this work as a counter build?
Yes, but if you're planning to blind-counter, you might as well try some sort of 2-base tech play instead of relying on Nydus.
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On December 20 2012 20:29 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. this! it's funny because of how much zergs whine about maps that don't have 3 easy bases (look at the custom game forums to see what I'm talking about). Some strats are better on certain maps, and once zergs learn that you just can't go 3 base roach every game they can evolve and stop this push
Anyone who thinks zerg is being greedy by taking 3 bases against FFE doesn't understand ZVP at all. It is an absolute necessity for zerg. They need 3 bases for production alone, and if protoss goes gateway units into a third base, the 2 base zerg is way behind.
But the simple fact is that 3 base roach/ling defense is auto-lose against immortal/sentry, and zergs need to find a new style if they want to stop Parting. I'm disappointed at Sniper for using tactics that aren't good against immortal/sentry.
A burrow roach counterattack, or drops, or fast infestors... something different needs to be done, or else protoss will win 100%.
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France3195 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:36 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:33 goswser wrote:On December 20 2012 20:31 xAdra wrote:On December 20 2012 20:24 goswser wrote:
It's so stupid for starcraft 2 to have an allin that strong. It's just bad for the game. As protoss there used to be a lot of allins, but this one is so strong we very rarely ever see any other allin builds now from protoss. Why do an allin that works 40% or 50% of the time if you can do one that works 90% of the time even when it gets scouted. Problem? Would you want to try playing as protoss and going up against the variety of bullshit a zerg can throw at you, including of course infestor-broodlord? Regarding Infestor-broodlord: It's so stupid for starcraft 2 to have a lategame build that strong. It's just bad for the game. As zerg there used to be actual exciting games to watch, but this build is so strong we very rarely ever see any other builds from zerg. Why do a build that works 40% or 50% of the time if you can do one that works 90% of the time even if the protoss does everything in his ability to stop it? I don't disagree with you. Broodlord infestor is too strong as well. Glad you think so. Since we can see eye-to-eye on this we can also agree the matchup needs a huge makeover in order to make sure it isn't like PvT a few months back: Terran allins, or Protoss completely owns him versus Protoss allins, or Zerg completely owns him
FYI no buffs came into play for PVT to be more stable. Pro's just got better and now its a pretty stable matchup.
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France3195 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:36 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:35 Douillos wrote:
How is this all in working in HOTs beta btw? i dont see a reason why it would be weaker. if you cant get infestor tech out in time without dying i dont see how zerg could get hydra speed or viper etc on top of it mothership core should help a TON vs zerg backstabs in your natural with planetary nexus
Can swarm hosts help out? This is pure curiosity I havent gotten round to playing in ages...
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On December 20 2012 20:30 massivez wrote:
wait what? how can mma be best player when Mvp was best terran? silly Gom
It's quite easy, as the criteria were totally different. Mvp had GSL points and MMA won Blizzard cup.
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On December 20 2012 20:37 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:29 nomyx wrote:On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. this! it's funny because of how much zergs whine about maps that don't have 3 easy bases (look at the custom game forums to see what I'm talking about). Some strats are better on certain maps, and once zergs learn that you just can't go 3 base roach every game they can evolve and stop this push Anyone who thinks zerg is being greedy by taking 3 bases against FFE doesn't understand ZVP at all. It is an absolute necessity for zerg. They need 3 bases for production alone, and if protoss goes gateway units into a third base, the 2 base zerg is way behind. But the simple fact is that 3 base roach/ling defense is auto-lose against immortal/sentry, and zergs need to find a new style if they want to stop Parting. I'm disappointed at Sniper for using tactics that aren't good against immortal/sentry. A burrow roach counterattack, or drops, or fast infestors... something different needs to be done, or else protoss will win 100%.
you do realize most people who spout nonsense usually have no idea what they are talking about and probably don't even play the game. Even if zerg stayed on 2 bases knowing the push is coming, they would die from not having enough larva to produce units...you have to stop the push before it even gets to your side of the map; which by what we just witnessed isn't very easy with 20+ sentries.
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On December 20 2012 20:38 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:36 MorroW wrote:On December 20 2012 20:35 Douillos wrote:
How is this all in working in HOTs beta btw? i dont see a reason why it would be weaker. if you cant get infestor tech out in time without dying i dont see how zerg could get hydra speed or viper etc on top of it mothership core should help a TON vs zerg backstabs in your natural with planetary nexus Can swarm hosts help out? This is pure curiosity I havent gotten round to playing in ages...
not really. like i said if you 3hatch before pool - going across 60 drones and 4 geysers is considered playing greedy and he will just kill you before your tech is out
swarm host takes just as much time as infestor to get out
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On December 20 2012 20:38 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:36 MorroW wrote:On December 20 2012 20:35 Douillos wrote:
How is this all in working in HOTs beta btw? i dont see a reason why it would be weaker. if you cant get infestor tech out in time without dying i dont see how zerg could get hydra speed or viper etc on top of it mothership core should help a TON vs zerg backstabs in your natural with planetary nexus Can swarm hosts help out? This is pure curiosity I havent gotten round to playing in ages...
swarm host is infestor tech
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sc2 is such a mess, don't know why i'm so happy about that.
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immortal sentry is only good because of the +1 range buff they got vs 1/1/1, also while everyone deep in their heart knows the build is a tad bit too strong sniper didnt play well today
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Congrats to Life and Parting!
Good time to be a Startale fan! It'll be really interesting to see how these finals turn out!
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On December 20 2012 20:39 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:30 massivez wrote:
wait what? how can mma be best player when Mvp was best terran? silly Gom It's quite easy, as the criteria were totally different. Mvp had GSL points and MMA won Blizzard cup.
But Mvp had all the other trophies that year. Like, all of them.
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On December 20 2012 20:41 Tsubbi wrote:
immortal sentry is only good because of the +1 range buff they got vs 1/1/1, also while everyone deep in their heart knows the build is a tad bit too strong sniper didnt play well today
Game 3 was nearly perfect from Sniper and even had a few mistakes by Parting (some bad FFs early on in the push and also let himself by delayed by a handful of lings feigning aggression).
Game 3 is basically proof you cannot beat the all-in with the build Sniper was using.
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EPT
