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[GSL] Blizzard Cup Semi-Finals - Page 55
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:44 MorroW wrote: sniper played actually almost a perfect text book game vs parting on abyssal city. he had near perfect execution to "how your supposed to stop immortal sentry all-in". this is how all top koreans play against this when going 3hatch before gas and it works wonders against all tosses except parting vs the push you need to start roaches before 8 mins to have a counter attack ready when he moves out, sniper built 20 lings and started roaches at 8:30, it was a little late, especially since he didnt open standard but hatch pool hatch before queens, his build just wasnt smooth, gonna watch the vod later to confirm but im pretty sure his macro wasnt perfect which it absolutely needs to be also the new drg build is awesome vs immortal sentry and good vs everything else, he gets 2 gas at 6 mins, 3rd one at 7, starts speed and build 12 roaches around 7:30 followed by a round of 30 speedlings, it arrives so early at the protoss main he cant move out or you have a big counter attack force ready, also it transitions smoothly as you have 3 saturated mineral line on 3 gas, i really think we are gonna see this build more | ||
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KingOfNoodles
Australia379 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:36 Nebuchad wrote: I'm not really supposed to say this as protoss but there's something quite good against immortals & forcefields. It's called baneling drops + zerglings. Always wondered how come a build designed to crush roachling was so good at crushing roachling... Could it have been because it was designed to crush roachling? You sound like the terrans who used to complain storm + colossus was too strong against bio... well duh, that's kind of the point. Usually when you scout that its coming, its too late to invest 300gas into overlord speed and drops. Not to mention you will need gas for banelings as well. If you blindly invest the gas early, and the protoss doesn't do the immortal/sentry push and expands instead, then you've wasted your 300 gas at the stage of the game where you should be upgrading or teching to keep up with the protoss and thus be behind. | ||
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Duplicate
United States27 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:37 Chocobo wrote: Anyone who thinks zerg is being greedy by taking 3 bases against FFE doesn't understand ZVP at all. It is an absolute necessity for zerg. They need 3 bases for production alone, and if protoss goes gateway units into a third base, the 2 base zerg is way behind. But the simple fact is that 3 base roach/ling defense is auto-lose against immortal/sentry, and zergs need to find a new style if they want to stop Parting. I'm disappointed at Sniper for using tactics that aren't good against immortal/sentry. A burrow roach counterattack, or drops, or fast infestors... something different needs to be done, or else protoss will win 100%. Not sure if a roach counterattack is viable against Parting. Might work against a Toss with less Soul though. Parting vs Jeadong in IPTL. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:50 dcemuser wrote: As long as there is only one player who can do a build, they really have no reason to nerf it. I mean they can't nerf a unit to fix games involving 0.00001% of the playerbase (that player and his opponents only). thorzain got thors nerfed after one game. morrow got reapers nerfed after one tournament, etc :p | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:43 Boiler Bandsman wrote: That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay. if this is supposed to work, why are the korean zergs not doing this? they obviously have tried their stuff, this build has been out for ages now. | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:44 Chocobo wrote: Infestor/BL has always been much more beatable than this. Sure, protoss were well under 50% against it, but it was doable with a good vortex, or good distractions + counterattacks like taking out the greater spire with warp prism harrass. Plus the zerg has to survive until that point anyway, so protoss has several opportunities to win in the first 15-20 minutes. I'm not saying infestor/BL wasn't overpowered, but it wasn't virtually unbeatable like the Parting allin is. But it's kind of like mass science vessels in BW TvZ... if the terran gets his perfect lategame composition, zerg is very unlikely to win the game. The difference is that in BW you could pick off sci vessels with scourge or plague to keep the count down... in SC2 protoss can't pick off BLs or infestors to keep it from getting out of hand. You downplay good vortex, good distractions. It's the same for going BL infestor - you know it's coming and once it comes you have no reliable way to ACTUALLY punish it. And ways you listed to punish the play is also a 'mistake on the zerg's' behalf. | ||
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euroboy
Sweden536 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:44 Chocobo wrote: Infestor/BL has always been much more beatable than this. Sure, protoss were well under 50% against it, but it was doable with a good vortex, or good distractions + counterattacks like taking out the greater spire with warp prism harrass. Plus the zerg has to survive until that point anyway, so protoss has several opportunities to win in the first 15-20 minutes. I'm not saying infestor/BL wasn't overpowered, but it wasn't virtually unbeatable like the Parting allin is. But it's kind of like mass science vessels in BW TvZ... if the terran gets his perfect lategame composition, zerg is very unlikely to win the game. The difference is that in BW you could pick off sci vessels with scourge or plague to keep the count down... in SC2 protoss can't pick off BLs or infestors to keep it from getting out of hand. Finally some sense in this thread. | ||
ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:52 opterown wrote: thorzain got thors nerfed after one game. morrow got reapers nerfed after one tournament, etc :p The Blizzard Reactionary Nerf Hammer™ is reserved for Terran only. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:49 Chocobo wrote: I'm sorry but you don't understand ZvP very well if you think 2 base is even remotely an option. 2 bases don't even provide enough larva. And if infestors crush this allin, why aren't any pros trying it? Mass high-energy infestors could stop it.. but you can't have more than a few new ones when this push hits. It certainly can't do worse than roach/ling though... theres actually a build that rapes immortal sentry allin inside out. you start out with 2base, saturate it and quad gas. dual upgrades and lair. 3rd base slightly later (still 3base without units). basically trading out some larva and mineral income for quicker and more gas. youll have infestors out in time and 1-1 against the push and you can literally fungal and clap your hands but then again, a toss has other 2base allins and 3base builds that counter such zerg playstyles. for example rushing mass gate zealot archon beats the zerg build im talking about. so its not just about stopping immortal sentry allin in any way possible, its about having a build from the get go that has the potential to stop anything if your keen on scouting, executing and adapting. the 3hatch before gas => dual gas 6:00 minute is the closest zergs has gotten to reaching that safety solid play and thats why you see zergs do it over and over even if they have a tough time against 1 particular all in | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it. sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:40 MorroW wrote: not really. like i said if you 3hatch before pool - going across 60 drones and 4 geysers is considered playing greedy and he will just kill you before your tech is out swarm host takes just as much time as infestor to get out Ah ok yeah forgot swarm host came from infestor building :x | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:52 Duplicate wrote: Not sure if a roach counterattack is viable against Parting. Might work against a Toss with less Soul though. Parting vs Jeadong in IPTL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl25DIDBhVM Leenock beat PartinG's immortal all in this blizzard cup with a counterattack | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:46 Veldril wrote: Well, if there's only one player who can make that build works no matter what, couldn't we say he is very skilled with this build? No one is doubting Parting's skill. He is a worthy winner of the B.net world championship, he won WCG right afterwards and will probably win the GSL Blizzard Cup. He's definitely a contender for "best in the world" right now. But the best player in the world shouldn't be able to tell top level opponents exactly what he will do and have them be unable to counter it. Either the build is OP or zergs are making the wrong choices to deal with it. It's too soon to call it OP since so few zergs are trying counterattacks or drops. They all just want to take it on with roach/ling, which simply doesn't work. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:54 MorroW wrote: theres actually a build that rapes immortal sentry allin inside out. you start out with 2base, saturate it and quad gas. dual upgrades and lair. 3rd base slightly later (still 3base without units). basically trading out some larva and mineral income for quicker and more gas. youll have infestors out in time and 1-1 against the push and you can literally fungal and clap your hands does this still work even with the new fungal? | ||
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KingOfNoodles
Australia379 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:38 Douillos wrote: Can swarm hosts help out? This is pure curiosity I havent gotten round to playing in ages... Swarm hosts cost 200/100 each and infestation pit. It'll come way too late against a standard immortal/sentry push. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:55 DrPandaPhD wrote: Leenock beat PartinG's immortal all in this blizzard cup with a counterattack leenock played greedy as heck and had that many more roaches to both counterattack and defend; usually you will not have enough for both. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:43 Boiler Bandsman wrote: That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay. Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least. Do you remember the game between Life and Rain on Cloud Kingdom? Life had Infestor tech, everything, on 4 bases, against a 3 base push. He barely held it, saccing his 4th. Do you think if he had opened 2 base Lair, he could have held such a 3 base timing from Protoss? The problem with 2 base openings with Zerg is that you're at the mercy of the Protoss. You're committing to tech and units that you can't be aggressive with, if the Protoss just turtles behind his wall. You can't have enough Mutas off 2 bases to pressure, they die too easily to what Protoss can make off of 2 base. Infestors aren't good units to be aggressive with, the 2 base Infested Terran timings got figured out in less than a month from when they appeared and became useless. I remember an embarrassing game where Gatored, yes, a middling NA Protoss beat DRG of all people when he tried it at IEM. By then it was already figured out, did absolutely no damage. There are a number of 2 base and 3 base Protoss all ins, to which Zerg has no answer if they open 2 base tech, because Zerg simply doesn't have the economy and production, to deal cost efficiently with what the Protoss can field. | ||
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