On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay.
Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least.
Why would a protoss immortal sentry all-in a 2 base teching zerg? There's a reason every zerg goes 3 hatch no gas in zvp. It's because you're just behind otherwise.
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
Infestor/BL has always been much more beatable than this. Sure, protoss were well under 50% against it, but it was doable with a good vortex, or good distractions + counterattacks like taking out the greater spire with warp prism harrass.
Plus the zerg has to survive until that point anyway, so protoss has several opportunities to win in the first 15-20 minutes. I'm not saying infestor/BL wasn't overpowered, but it wasn't virtually unbeatable like the Parting allin is.
But it's kind of like mass science vessels in BW TvZ... if the terran gets his perfect lategame composition, zerg is very unlikely to win the game. The difference is that in BW you could pick off sci vessels with scourge or plague to keep the count down... in SC2 protoss can't pick off BLs or infestors to keep it from getting out of hand.
You downplay good vortex, good distractions. It's the same for going BL infestor - you know it's coming and once it comes you have no reliable way to ACTUALLY punish it. And ways you listed to punish the play is also a 'mistake on the zerg's' behalf.
I'm just saying there's one difference between the two- Parting will get to execute his build no matter what, there is no way to interrupt it in the early game. But zergs don't always get to survive until mass infestor BL.
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay.
Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least.
Do you remember the game between Life and Rain on Cloud Kingdom? Life had Infestor tech, everything, on 4 bases, against a 3 base push. He barely held it, saccing his 4th. Do you think if he had opened 2 base Lair, he could have held such a 3 base timing from Protoss?
The problem with 2 base openings with Zerg is that you're at the mercy of the Protoss. You're committing to tech and units that you can't be aggressive with, if the Protoss just turtles behind his wall.
You can't have enough Mutas off 2 bases to pressure, they die too easily to what Protoss can make off of 2 base.
Infestors aren't good units to be aggressive with, the 2 base Infested Terran timings got figured out in less than a month from when they appeared and became useless. I remember an embarrassing game where Gatored, yes, a middling NA Protoss beat DRG of all people when he tried it at IEM. By then it was already figured out, did absolutely no damage.
There are a number of 2 base and 3 base Protoss all ins, to which Zerg has no answer if they open 2 base tech, because Zerg simply doesn't have the economy and production, to deal cost efficiently with what the Protoss can field.
yep the biggest drawback of 2base tech=>3base zerg is that quick 3base protoss is very strong against it where as 2base toss often has to be very specific builds colliding to make it work
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
On December 20 2012 20:36 Nebuchad wrote: I'm not really supposed to say this as protoss but there's something quite good against immortals & forcefields. It's called baneling drops + zerglings.
Always wondered how come a build designed to crush roachling was so good at crushing roachling... Could it have been because it was designed to crush roachling?
You sound like the terrans who used to complain storm + colossus was too strong against bio... well duh, that's kind of the point.
Usually when you scout that its coming, its too late to invest 300gas into overlord speed and drops. Not to mention you will need gas for banelings as well. If you blindly invest the gas early, and the protoss doesn't do the immortal/sentry push and expands instead, then you've wasted your 300 gas at the stage of the game where you should be upgrading or teching to keep up with the protoss and thus be behind.
I'm sorry that you have to delay infestor-broodlords freewin in order to not die :p Although "keep up with the protoss" is a nice way to speak of it, nice touch.
Anyway my point is that there are compos who do well against this build, which makes it not unbeatable. If the protoss choses to expand, then it gets into a macro game, and 1) I heard zerg isn't necessarily unhappy with that, 2) you didn't get behind because of the build, you got behind cause you thought he was going to cheese when he instead went for macro. I guess we would have to see it more often to get how 3base protoss push can matter into this.
Anyways, you ll get your answer to the Soul train pretty soon. Next round is Life vs Parting and if anyone can pull some fun shit out of his hat to counter that build, its Life. So be patient!
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
this! it's funny because of how much zergs whine about maps that don't have 3 easy bases (look at the custom game forums to see what I'm talking about). Some strats are better on certain maps, and once zergs learn that you just can't go 3 base roach every game they can evolve and stop this push
Anyone who thinks zerg is being greedy by taking 3 bases against FFE doesn't understand ZVP at all. It is an absolute necessity for zerg. They need 3 bases for production alone, and if protoss goes gateway units into a third base, the 2 base zerg is way behind.
But the simple fact is that 3 base roach/ling defense is auto-lose against immortal/sentry, and zergs need to find a new style if they want to stop Parting. I'm disappointed at Sniper for using tactics that aren't good against immortal/sentry.
A burrow roach counterattack, or drops, or fast infestors... something different needs to be done, or else protoss will win 100%.
Not sure if a roach counterattack is viable against Parting. Might work against a Toss with less Soul though.
Parting vs Jeadong in IPTL.
Leenock beat PartinG's immortal all in this blizzard cup with a counterattack
leenock played greedy as heck and had that many more roaches to both counterattack and defend; usually you will not have enough for both.
Wasn't that the game where Leenock went hatch/hatch/18pool?
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay.
Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least.
I'm sorry but you don't understand ZvP very well if you think 2 base is even remotely an option. 2 bases don't even provide enough larva. And if infestors crush this allin, why aren't any pros trying it?
Mass high-energy infestors could stop it.. but you can't have more than a few new ones when this push hits. It certainly can't do worse than roach/ling though...
theres actually a build that rapes immortal sentry allin inside out. you start out with 2base, saturate it and quad gas. dual upgrades and lair. 3rd base slightly later (still 3base without units). basically trading out some larva and mineral income for quicker and more gas. youll have infestors out in time and 1-1 against the push and you can literally fungal and clap your hands
but then again, a toss has other 2base allins and 3base builds that counter such zerg playstyles. for example rushing mass gate zealot archon beats the zerg build im talking about.
so its not just about stopping immortal sentry allin in any way possible, its about having a build from the get go that has the potential to stop anything if your keen on scouting, executing and adapting. the 3hatch before gas => dual gas 6:00 minute is the closest zergs has gotten to reaching that safety solid play and thats why you see zergs do it over and over even if they have a tough time against 1 particular all in
I could definitely see this working... I really wish some of Parting's opponents would try stuff like this instead of stubbornly sticking with roach/ling.
I have some doubts about it (can you really get enough infestors fast enough? can you get enough larva without fast 3 base?) but I would love to see this or any other creative builds used against immortal/sentry.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
It occurs that dropping roaches a few at a time on top of armies with immortals in them would result in them dying way too fast to ever reach a critical mass.
Baneling bombs, on the other hand, might be good but I've never seen it attempted.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
Can you tell me what happened to baneling drops vs immortal all in? I recall Symbol doing it to great effect some time ago...
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
can mods be banned?
I've only seen it in the case where drunk people take over EvilTeletubby's account and ban people with it or something so technically yes
EPT
