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On December 20 2012 21:03 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:01 MorroW wrote:On December 20 2012 21:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On December 20 2012 20:54 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something. your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that? wow!~ I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else. Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
thats incredible your so smart, myself along with progamer zergs have IQ of mosquitoes and fly into the window over and over but instead are using roaches and lings running into forcefields
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On December 20 2012 20:44 Chocobo wrote:
Infestor/BL has always been much more beatable than this. Sure, protoss were well under 50% against it, but it was doable with a good vortex, or good distractions + counterattacks like taking out the greater spire with warp prism harrass.
Plus the zerg has to survive until that point anyway, so protoss has several opportunities to win in the first 15-20 minutes. I'm not saying infestor/BL wasn't overpowered, but it wasn't virtually unbeatable like the Parting allin is.
...a good Vortex relies on a major screwup from the Zerg. Killing the greater spire would be required before they're out to delay the tech, bit pointless if the Broodlings are already nibbling at your wall. Tbh carriers might be viable if they'd just do something about how horrendously impractical they are to get a decent number of.
I feel I must point out here that only Parting is able to pull this off consistently and when scouted. Every other Protoss suffers defeats and victories with it. It may be a fairly high winrate but only Parting manages to do it at a 90% winrate (or whatever absurdly high amount its at, he rarely loses with it). On the other hand EVERY Zerg can use Infestor/Broodlord quite comfortably; they do so and absolutely crush with it. Zerg as a whole having an overwhelmingly positive winrate with their standard lategame army is a bit different to one Protoss having Zerg's number with a specific all-in.
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Norway10161 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:05 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:03 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On December 20 2012 21:01 MorroW wrote:On December 20 2012 21:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On December 20 2012 20:54 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something. your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that? wow!~ I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else. Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then. can mods be banned?
Well I guess an admin can ban a mod, but in general there would be a demotion to regular user and then a ban, if it came up.
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I would like to say a nice fuck you to sniper, the one time I vote for him in liquibet and he loses. Awesome. Great win for Parting though
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On December 20 2012 20:53 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:43 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:36 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:31 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:29 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. Posts like this kill my brain. Good argument. Next time add some content. Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd. There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up. Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this. That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay. if this is supposed to work, why are the korean zergs not doing this? they obviously have tried their stuff, this build has been out for ages now.
I've seen both Leenock and Life play 2 base opening into quick infestor vs Protoss, and they won both games.
It worked fine, for some reason Zergs just dont try or play it more often.
I'd understand it if it didnt work and they stopped doing it, but they won these games and crushed the protoss with that build.
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I'm guessing he used imortal-sentry all in 3 times to prove that GSL lost was a fluke :D
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On December 20 2012 21:00 Psyclon wrote:
So many people are glad that there won't be a ZvZ final. I am just curious - was Parting-Sniper really more entertaining than Life-Leenock?
Well... kinda. I'm a zerg player and even I don't enjoy watching ZvZ much, and it's probably less enjoyable for players of other races.
ZvZ is very skillful but it's usually a lot of crazy back and forth fighting and sudden heavy rushes... it's less likely to develop into a game of specific long term strategies behind used.
Plus I can never tell whose roaches and banelings belong to which player, so that's a major drawback for me when I can't even follow the action. I miss Stronger Team Colors.
On the other hand I do think ZvP is exciting, even if it's the same Parting allin every game... it's fun to watch and see if someone will finally develop a counter to it.
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Austria24417 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:07 Quateras wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:53 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:43 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:36 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:31 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:29 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. Posts like this kill my brain. Good argument. Next time add some content. Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd. There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up. Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this. That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay. if this is supposed to work, why are the korean zergs not doing this? they obviously have tried their stuff, this build has been out for ages now. I've seen both Leenock and Life play 2 base opening into quick infestor vs Protoss, and they won both games. It worked fine, for some reason Zergs just dont try or play it more often. I'd understand it if it didnt work and they stopped doing it, but they won these games and crushed the protoss with that build.
Maybe it's the same mentality that people like Naniwa used to have with "FFE or die trying". Protoss right now are switching it up a lot, even guys like HerO who never did it before are now frequently going with gateway expand builds. Why? Well because the standard just doesn't work properly. Maybe zerg has to get used to it.
Then again I'm bad at the game so take it with a grain of salt.
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On December 20 2012 21:04 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:54 MorroW wrote:On December 20 2012 20:49 Chocobo wrote:On December 20 2012 20:43 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:36 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:31 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On December 20 2012 20:29 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed. Posts like this kill my brain. Good argument. Next time add some content. Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd. There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up. Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this. That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay. Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least. I'm sorry but you don't understand ZvP very well if you think 2 base is even remotely an option. 2 bases don't even provide enough larva. And if infestors crush this allin, why aren't any pros trying it? Mass high-energy infestors could stop it.. but you can't have more than a few new ones when this push hits. It certainly can't do worse than roach/ling though... theres actually a build that rapes immortal sentry allin inside out. you start out with 2base, saturate it and quad gas. dual upgrades and lair. 3rd base slightly later (still 3base without units). basically trading out some larva and mineral income for quicker and more gas. youll have infestors out in time and 1-1 against the push and you can literally fungal and clap your hands but then again, a toss has other 2base allins and 3base builds that counter such zerg playstyles. for example rushing mass gate zealot archon beats the zerg build im talking about. so its not just about stopping immortal sentry allin in any way possible, its about having a build from the get go that has the potential to stop anything if your keen on scouting, executing and adapting. the 3hatch before gas => dual gas 6:00 minute is the closest zergs has gotten to reaching that safety solid play and thats why you see zergs do it over and over even if they have a tough time against 1 particular all in I could definitely see this working... I really wish some of Parting's opponents would try stuff like this instead of stubbornly sticking with roach/ling. I have some doubts about it (can you really get enough infestors fast enough? can you get enough larva without fast 3 base?) but I would love to see this or any other creative builds used against immortal/sentry.
ye it dumps on it. immortal sentry allin works s o well because everything is clumped together in a tight ball. 3 chainfungals on it and its gone
they arent really stubborn for sticking with what works the best - which is 3base before gas. i remember the old meta game alot of zergs mixed a ton of 2base plays along with quick 3base but eventually the 2base tech=>3base faded out because it was considered weaker overall
immortal sentry allin 2base is a build that should only be done against 3base no gas. its not designed to work against anything else than that really
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On December 20 2012 21:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:54 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53.
Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair.
Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
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On December 20 2012 21:10 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On December 20 2012 20:54 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something. I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53. Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair. Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
i guess lesson learned next time trust your instincts and that korean progamers has tried other methods before listening to ignorant posters who think they break the meta game by observing gsl matches
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Is muta even viable against the all in?
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Apparently Chinese is a tough language even for Google computers...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rbxyc.jpg)
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On December 20 2012 21:07 paradoxOO9 wrote:
I would like to say a nice fuck you to sniper, the one time I vote for him in liquibet and he loses. Awesome. Great win for Parting though
The same happened to me 
I voted against him consistenly until yesterday. I don't think I've ever got a liquibet point in a match involving him...
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Austria24417 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:15 OhThatDang wrote:
Is muta even viable against the all in?
Not if you start with gasless 3 base, no. And if you do go for 2 base tech protoss has no reason to all in you.
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From everything I'm hearing... firstly, Zergs should stop complaining... apart from Parting this build isn't full proof... even Parting got stomped by Hyun and a few other Zerg's in the last few months...
And to compare this to the Terran 1-1-1 is a mistake... that was a build that could kill you if not the first time, the 2nd or the 3rd... when the Immortal-Sentry all-in fails, you are pretty much dead! Plus, compare tank placement, banshee pokes and marine A-moving to Warp prism micro and FFing?! Also, this build can't be done by any scrub Protoss against a top-tier Zerg... hey! even Ryung could use the 1-1-1, the TvT Ryung of old...
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I would much rather see Parting immortal all in every zerg than watch Scarlett afk with 61 infestors, especially given that five of the first kind of games there fits in the time it takes for one of the second.
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On December 20 2012 21:16 Chocobo wrote:Apparently Chinese is a tough language even for Google computers...
That Chinese says three losers fight against one rich, handsome manager, though i have no idea wuts that mean.
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Norway10161 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:10 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On December 20 2012 20:54 opterown wrote:On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something. I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53. Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair. Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
I did not mean to say that drops are the absolute solution. I'm just thinking - do something different. As I don't play zerg and don't play at a high level I can only observe and draw conclusions from that. My main gripe is that it feels like a lot of zergs are trying to beat a strat designed to beat roach/ling with roach/ling, and that there should be other ways to deal with it.
I apologize if my post read like an absolute, that was not my intent. I mainly thought of drops because Parting spent so long standing in one place in the last game of today.
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United States97274 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:26 Taro134 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:16 Chocobo wrote:Apparently Chinese is a tough language even for Google computers... That Chinese says three losers fight against one rich, handsome manager, though i have no idea wuts that mean.
I'm more concerned about the insect heart cock silk exhibition
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EPT
