Too bad I missed the games. Just way too much soul from PartinG! The only player who can do 3 Immortal/sentry-allins in a row and still win. What a boss.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53.
Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair.
Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53.
Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair.
Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
Wait wat? Drop is 130 sec and speed is 60 sec and you do know you can research both at the same time? How can it take 4 minutes? Gas-starved?
??
I started my Lair at 6:10, it didn't finish till, well, however many seconds it takes for Lair to complete. Then I started Drop. I know you can research both at the same time, I meant Zergs would need a Lair STARTED at 5 min, in order to research Drop in time to have it at 9:00.
On December 20 2012 20:41 Tsubbi wrote: immortal sentry is only good because of the +1 range buff they got vs 1/1/1, also while everyone deep in their heart knows the build is a tad bit too strong sniper didnt play well today
sniper played actually almost a perfect text book game vs parting on abyssal city. he had near perfect execution to "how your supposed to stop immortal sentry all-in". this is how all top koreans play against this when going 3hatch before gas and it works wonders against all tosses except parting
Well, if there's only one player who can make that build works no matter what, couldn't we say he is very skilled with this build?
As long as there is only one player who can do a build, they really have no reason to nerf it.
I mean they can't nerf a unit to fix games involving 0.00001% of the playerbase (that player and his opponents only).
thorzain got thors nerfed after one game. morrow got reapers nerfed after one tournament, etc :p
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
wow, i have to say i'm a bit disappointed at your response o.O
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
this! it's funny because of how much zergs whine about maps that don't have 3 easy bases (look at the custom game forums to see what I'm talking about). Some strats are better on certain maps, and once zergs learn that you just can't go 3 base roach every game they can evolve and stop this push
Anyone who thinks zerg is being greedy by taking 3 bases against FFE doesn't understand ZVP at all. It is an absolute necessity for zerg. They need 3 bases for production alone, and if protoss goes gateway units into a third base, the 2 base zerg is way behind.
But the simple fact is that 3 base roach/ling defense is auto-lose against immortal/sentry, and zergs need to find a new style if they want to stop Parting. I'm disappointed at Sniper for using tactics that aren't good against immortal/sentry.
A burrow roach counterattack, or drops, or fast infestors... something different needs to be done, or else protoss will win 100%.
Not sure if a roach counterattack is viable against Parting. Might work against a Toss with less Soul though.
Parting vs Jeadong in IPTL.
Leenock beat PartinG's immortal all in this blizzard cup with a counterattack
leenock played greedy as heck and had that many more roaches to both counterattack and defend; usually you will not have enough for both.
Wasn't that the game where Leenock went hatch/hatch/18pool?
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay.
if this is supposed to work, why are the korean zergs not doing this? they obviously have tried their stuff, this build has been out for ages now.
I've seen both Leenock and Life play 2 base opening into quick infestor vs Protoss, and they won both games. It worked fine, for some reason Zergs just dont try or play it more often. I'd understand it if it didnt work and they stopped doing it, but they won these games and crushed the protoss with that build.
because creator style 3 base will rape them pretty hard haha
On December 20 2012 21:07 paradoxOO9 wrote: I would like to say a nice fuck you to sniper, the one time I vote for him in liquibet and he loses. Awesome. Great win for Parting though
On December 20 2012 20:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Zerg does not have a god-given right to 3 bases before tech. Stop crying because PartinG found a consistent way to punish greed.
Posts like this kill my brain.
Good argument. Next time add some content.
Going 3 hatch before tech is how you stay even with a FFE protoss. It's common SC2 macro sense. Of course, it has risks. Pressure builds and/or all ins, and fake pressure builds with a 3rd. That's where the skill is involved, the Protoss trying to fool the Zerg into over/undercommiting to drones depending on whether they're going all in or fake --> 3rd.
There is none of that with the sentry immortal all in. No fooling, no trickery, just I'm going to forcefield all your shit and there's nothing you can do about it besides hoping I mess up.
Infestor/BL looks way more beatable to me after the fungal/IT mini-nerf then this.
That's outdated macro sense. Zerg has achieved cost-efficiency since the days of roach-hydra max and remax. A 2-base Zerg is not dead, he's just not ahead. 2-base Infestor would just LOL at this all-in, at which point you can probably DOUBLE expand safely while Toss tries for third. PartinG is keeping 16-minute Brood rushers honest, and that's completely okay.
Much as FF/Fungal/BL suck ass to play against, the MU is balanced (if you're Parting). It may be poorly designed for sure, but it is balanced for his level at least.
I'm sorry but you don't understand ZvP very well if you think 2 base is even remotely an option. 2 bases don't even provide enough larva. And if infestors crush this allin, why aren't any pros trying it?
Mass high-energy infestors could stop it.. but you can't have more than a few new ones when this push hits. It certainly can't do worse than roach/ling though...
theres actually a build that rapes immortal sentry allin inside out. you start out with 2base, saturate it and quad gas. dual upgrades and lair. 3rd base slightly later (still 3base without units). basically trading out some larva and mineral income for quicker and more gas. youll have infestors out in time and 1-1 against the push and you can literally fungal and clap your hands
but then again, a toss has other 2base allins and 3base builds that counter such zerg playstyles. for example rushing mass gate zealot archon beats the zerg build im talking about.
so its not just about stopping immortal sentry allin in any way possible, its about having a build from the get go that has the potential to stop anything if your keen on scouting, executing and adapting. the 3hatch before gas => dual gas 6:00 minute is the closest zergs has gotten to reaching that safety solid play and thats why you see zergs do it over and over even if they have a tough time against 1 particular all in
I could definitely see this working... I really wish some of Parting's opponents would try stuff like this instead of stubbornly sticking with roach/ling.
I have some doubts about it (can you really get enough infestors fast enough? can you get enough larva without fast 3 base?) but I would love to see this or any other creative builds used against immortal/sentry.
they arent really stubborn for sticking with what works the best - which is 3base before gas. i remember the old meta game alot of zergs mixed a ton of 2base plays along with quick 3base but eventually the 2base tech=>3base faded out because it was considered weaker overall
So basically the immortal sentry all-in is a reaction to zerg going for the same build as main build. You said earlier that the strength of the protoss all-in build is a problem cause it works so much it's obvious they're going to go for it. I won't dwell too much on the shortcut you take in which it's ok for zergs to go 3base before hatch every game because the other builds are weaker, but on the other hand it sucks that protoss can go immortal sentry against it every game because it works better, yet it's still a solid shortcut: we are reacting to you doing the same thing all the time by doing the same thing all the time, and it's our fault?
Anyway the main point is that 3base before gas is what works best when it's not punished. Protosses have a way of punishing it. Obviously you can't counter it efficiently with roachling because it's meant to beat roaches and lings (and that's my main point of contention with your complaint btw: this point doesn't seem that obvious to you). Really if there's no way to have something else ready at the point of attack, as you're making it sound, then maybe it's not such a good idea to go 3base before gas every game?
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
To be fair, I think you are right. I am sure there are others ways to beat Parting, that is probably why Life is so confident (see interview)
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over a long time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
I literally just tested this in a custom game in preparation for a post in the "Defeating the Sentry Immortal All in" Thread, and even with Lair at 6:10, and Drop started immediately upon Lair completion, drop tech is not done until 9:53.
Meaning to get Drop in time for when Parting hits around 9:00, Zergs would need a 5 minute Lair.
Now, how does one go 5 minute Lair in the current ZvP metagame? You really think Zergs haven't considered this option?
I did not mean to say that drops are the absolute solution. I'm just thinking - do something different. As I don't play zerg and don't play at a high level I can only observe and draw conclusions from that. My main gripe is that it feels like a lot of zergs are trying to beat a strat designed to beat roach/ling with roach/ling, and that there should be other ways to deal with it.
I apologize if my post read like an absolute, that was not my intent. I mainly thought of drops because Parting spent so long standing in one place in the last game of today.
The point is that there are very few different options for zerg that early. Banelings are ineffective vs good forcefields and good army control. It takes 3m30s to get infestors (with fungal), mutas or drop from the time of starting lair (3m33s for mutas), so if you get lair at 6:10, then that is 9:40 infestors, mutas or drop (with an inevitable couple of seconds lost to delay and unit transportation time). All are doable but very sizable investments, and while infestors may have some merit drop does not seem effective enough to even consider (parting's army movement and control would obviously be different if Sniper went drop). With sentries (guardian shield) and stalkers a few mutas do not seem viable in a head on engagement.
I know TLO has had some success with spines in his main and base trading. However AFAIK he has not have much experience with this against players of Parting's caliber (it did decently vs Korean masters on ladder though). I suspect TLO would lose handily vs Parting, but I don't know if that is because his idea is fundamentally flawed or it is just because Parting presently has considerably better mechanics than TLO. This however seems like the only different idea of handling it than trying to perfect your roach-ling defense.
Apart from TLO's crazy antics you can tweak droning, expand timings, gas timings, creep spread, upgrades, queen numbers and roach/ling ratio, but in the end they are just tweaks on the same general idea. It may be like in the 1-1-1 phase where it just took a lot of tweaking from terrans. Obviously this is way too early to call for Blizzard interference, but it certainly is frustrating to play vs as zerg these days (not that playing against bl+infestor looks much better).
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
To be fair, I think you are right. I am sure there are others ways to beat Parting, that is probably why Life is so confident (see interview)
there are hundreds of good korean zergs who have had months to study and dissect this build. i'm sure they would have tried just about every permutation they could to stop this~
On December 20 2012 21:10 DarkLordOlli wrote: Maybe it's the same mentality that people like Naniwa used to have with "FFE or die trying".
Possibly. To be honest I think it sets a bit of a bad example to lower level players because it means people start thinking in absolutes of "this must happen". A while ago I found a build someone had written up that TAiLS had been doing which was a 1-gate expand into a 4-gate pressure on two bases, walling off your natural with the three extra gateways. It was a pressure specifically designed to punish a Zerg going for 3-hatcheries with minimal tech. Most sub-diamond level players I played against couldn't handle even my garbage execution of it because it was so unexpected (quite a few raging about 4-gate all-in actually thinking I was doing it off one base).
I had several Zerg asking me how to beat it, I always replied that they needed a little tech before dropping their third and they'd be fine. Personally I was getting crushed whenever my opponent got a few early roaches. The reply I got back from most of them was the same "I HAVE to take a third or I DIE to Protoss". Trying to point out that getting a roach warren before a third hatchery wasn't going to make them instantly lose was utterly futile. So many were apparently convinced that without two expansions right after spawning pool the game would just end or something.
On December 20 2012 20:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: So happy with this^^ Sentry immortal might be boring but at least its not a zvz final and the joy of seeing Sniper knocked out really makes anything exciting. Surprised Sniper was so unprepared to deal with this, with Parting being so famous for it.
sniper was just about as prepared as you could be haha
Roach/ling against the soul train is pretty archaic at this point. I mean Parting took a strat and perfected it over time, while zergs have during the same time countered it with .. roach/ling. At least drop your roach army on top of his, or something.
your a genius why havent any progamer zerg thought of that?
wow!~
I'm not a progamer. But I'm still smart enough to realise when something does not work I'll do something else.
Maybe if you did as well you would actually win a game now and then.
so can we all just admit that after watching these games...we really wish it was all terran games instead? Honestly its just getting painful to watch at this point. The only reason there was even any excitement in the past 2 days was to see if the lone Non Zerg would make it out.
Really hoping HotS will make things better, I love watching sc2 and GSL and have bought almost every pass over the past 2 years but I'm losing interest and not sure I'm getting next years GSL until I see some sort of improvement in game quality.
On December 20 2012 20:31 Flonomenalz wrote: So if Zergs start going 2 base Infestor to blind counter Immortal Sentry all ins, then everyone goes right back to complaining about Infestors.
Hilarious LR threads.
Hilarious matchup either way.
Both of these comments are spot on, PvZ is the biggest whinefest. Has been, will most likely always be.
It is too bad that leenock lost, I really want him to win one of these but at least we have some startale action in the finals! Yeeeeeaahhhh!
1st game: Scouting was denied and Sniper had no idea it was coming until it was too late.
2nd game: robo was scouted, however Parting juked him out by getting observer first and showing it by taking out the overlord watching the natural choke. This is delayed Snipers sight of the incoming onslaught.
3rd game: 111 was successfully scouted however force fields weren't baited out properly and half snipers army got cut by FF.
Now here is the big difference between today's 111 and all the past. Now parting is very slow and methodical with his push. He won't waste force fields until he is 100% he will catch a big group, and never over extending. Notice in game 3, he even brought an observer over to clear the creep tumour so that he could place more forward pylons? This is so he could always use his warp prism for micro and have closer reinforcements as Snipers flank army were picking off all the other pylons. THIS slow version of wonwonwon is what Parting refers to as his level 2.
On December 20 2012 20:41 Tsubbi wrote: immortal sentry is only good because of the +1 range buff they got vs 1/1/1, also while everyone deep in their heart knows the build is a tad bit too strong sniper didnt play well today
sniper played actually almost a perfect text book game vs parting on abyssal city. he had near perfect execution to "how your supposed to stop immortal sentry all-in". this is how all top koreans play against this when going 3hatch before gas and it works wonders against all tosses except parting
Well, if there's only one player who can make that build works no matter what, couldn't we say he is very skilled with this build?
As long as there is only one player who can do a build, they really have no reason to nerf it.
I mean they can't nerf a unit to fix games involving 0.00001% of the playerbase (that player and his opponents only).
thorzain got thors nerfed after one game. morrow got reapers nerfed after one tournament, etc :p
Rewriting history.
I actually like it when it's to the point where one player always wins with a specific strategy but others are unable to duplicate its success. I don't really think it comes down to balance but rather just how sharp and crisp his executions are. It would be a whole other story if every protoss in Code S was able to win like this with this one particular build.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jbhou.jpg)
