On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
the first sc2 osl is just now starting, gsl4 hasnt even started, why are people saying elephant article is completely wrong when it still hasnt had the chance to happen yet? osl is a small pool of players and the qualifiers were too early imo. gsl4 will be a better standard to go by. i can't say kespa will completely dominate or lose, i'm no psychic but if i were to bet money, i think kespa players will do better given more time just because in bw, the remaining kespa players were the more stronger players before many switching to sc2. and yes bw skills do transfer over to sc2 but sc2 skills do not carry over to bw for obvious reasons, so if the tables were turned just for the sake of the debate, bw players will dominate the crap out of sc2 players in bw.
but in the end its just more influx of new sc2 players and we should worry more about foreigners than esf. its no longer foreigner vs koreans, now its esf vs kespa...i find that discouraging
and this was only bo1 with only 8 games total, let the tournament playout more to start claiming one is better than the other. who knows, esf players might win all their next matches...or kespa players win all their matches.
but for the sake of fun, GO KESPA, KILL THEM ESF NUBS
On August 30 2012 03:18 jinorazi wrote: the first sc2 osl is just now starting, gsl4 hasnt even started, why are people saying elephant article is completely wrong when it still hasnt had the chance to happen yet? osl is a small pool of players and the qualifiers were too early imo. gsl4 will be a better standard to go by. i can't say kespa will completely dominate or lose, i'm no psychic but if i were to bet money, i think kespa players will do better given more time just because in bw, the remaining kespa players were the more stronger players before many switching to sc2. and yes bw skills do transfer over to sc2 but sc2 skills do not carry over to bw for obvious reasons, so if the tables were turned just for the sake of the debate, bw players will dominate the crap out of sc2 players in bw.
but in the end its just more influx of new sc2 players and we should worry more about foreigners than esf. its no longer foreigner vs koreans, now its esf vs kespa...i find that discouraging
All I am trying to do is eloquently push back on all the people saying that it was right. It seems like some of the other people are excusing specific losses, which isn't effective argument. Someone had to come in and defend sc2 eloquently is all. And keep in mind, I am only saying it is currently wrong.
And I actually think this might be good for Foreigners. You pit a foreigner against a KeSPA player now only the KeSPA player has something to prove and perhaps they might buckle like the ESF players are due to nerves.
On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
MC was a bw player, he was just a shitty one. Best has always been known to have shitty control, and no control is not entirely independent. Obviously theres a correlation between games but the units genuinely do interact different. Pretty ridiculous to say its being melted when mediocre bw tosses just raped the two best terran in the world...
On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
MC was a bw player, he was just a shitty one. Best has always been known to have shitty control, and no control is not entirely independent. Obviously theres a correlation between games but the units genuinely do interact different. Pretty ridiculous to say its being melted when mediocre bw tosses just raped the two best terran in the world...
Ah you misunderstand. I am only saying that the poster is incorrect in talking about control. I am not in anyway saying that KeSPA players have worse control. In fact, I would EXPECT them to have better control. But if you want to say that his problem was he didn't move his immortals, you are also at the same time saying MC has better control. Maybe it is true, maybe it is not, but I am not arguing that AT ALL.
But since that is not ALL You were saying allow me to help you understand why what you are saying is actually not correct . If BW mechanical skills do not directly transfer, then there is no KeSPA advantage. So you must not be saying that. Instead, you are saying that somehow clicking an immortal and right clicking somewhere else (or even pressing a hotkey and right clicking somewhere else) is EXCLUSIVE to sc2. I don't think I need to say anything further there.
On August 30 2012 02:35 BlazeFury01 wrote: Ok, and a 10-0 streak at WCS isn't evidence of that? Lol you people crack me up with your nonsense. @ rysecakes
And how did they end up in the losers bracket? Plz inform me.
I am about to end this argument with a two liner. How exactly did creator end up in the losers bracket? Oh wait! Didn't he win WCS too?
I just wanted to tune in and inform you guys this discussion is shitty as hell, you are trying to throw IRRELEVANT arguments at each other
For the sake of human intelligence leave those petty arguments (Best Immortals, WCS Kespa players being in lower bracket, and vice versa arguments aswell).
And flying prooving that Woongjin Protoss > Wongjin Terran, fuck yeah! (for newbie sc2 fans: mvp was in team Woongjin Stars, and their terran line always was a joke).
Threads like this is why i hate BO1. I'm pretty sure BO3 or BO5 Marineking would win today. He did everythign he had to lose. 5 bases to 3 than he waits til the protoss gets collos and storm... he was up 50 supply and he sat and waited.
None of the protoss' that won did anythign special.
On August 30 2012 03:42 tranmillitary wrote: Threads like this is why i hate BO1. I'm pretty sure BO3 or BO5 Marineking would win today. He did everythign he had to lose. 5 bases to 3 than he waits til the protoss gets collos and storm... he was up 50 supply and he sat and waited.
None of the protoss' that won did anythign special.
its all good, the point is just to get out of the group and they're not out of the game yet.
On August 30 2012 03:42 tranmillitary wrote: Threads like this is why i hate BO1. I'm pretty sure BO3 or BO5 Marineking would win today. He did everythign he had to lose. 5 bases to 3 than he waits til the protoss gets collos and storm... he was up 50 supply and he sat and waited.
None of the protoss' that won did anythign special.
The protoss made it LOOK EASY. thats why it didn't look spectacular. Flying did two gate robo pressure into FE, warped in zealots everywhere and MVP could not keep up. MVP tried a four medivac drop while attacking the third, Flying split his army perfectly and microed well and crush MVP on all fronts. How is that not special? He killed over 50 scvs that game...
Way more exciting that a lot of GSL games I've seen (not all but many). You're just biased for GSL players and making excuses for them.
And btw BO1 means you prepare a week for that match so you should have all your basis covered. You should know all possible outcomes of your build and have everything down perfectly = indicative of your skill. OGN doesn't have time on their network to do BO3 for 5 hours.
On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
MC was a bw player, he was just a shitty one. Best has always been known to have shitty control, and no control is not entirely independent. Obviously theres a correlation between games but the units genuinely do interact different. Pretty ridiculous to say its being melted when mediocre bw tosses just raped the two best terran in the world...
Ah you misunderstand. I am only saying that the poster is incorrect in talking about control. I am not in anyway saying that KeSPA players have worse control. In fact, I would EXPECT them to have better control. But if you want to say that his problem was he didn't move his immortals, you are also at the same time saying MC has better control. Maybe it is true, maybe it is not, but I am not arguing that AT ALL.
But since that is not ALL You were saying allow me to help you understand why what you are saying is actually not correct . If BW mechanical skills do not directly transfer, then there is no KeSPA advantage. So you must not be saying that. Instead, you are saying that somehow clicking an immortal and right clicking somewhere else (or even pressing a hotkey and right clicking somewhere else) is EXCLUSIVE to sc2. I don't think I need to say anything further there.
uh thats what i was saying -__-/ mc DOES have better control than best lol. Best had 3 immortals out and still lost to stalkers (yeah the ff messed him up a lot). What I was trying to say was the mc best games wasn't as one sided rape as the Jangbi DRG game.
And whatevername is right. Best was known for his CRAZY macro, not micro.
On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
MC was a bw player, he was just a shitty one. Best has always been known to have shitty control, and no control is not entirely independent. Obviously theres a correlation between games but the units genuinely do interact different. Pretty ridiculous to say its being melted when mediocre bw tosses just raped the two best terran in the world...
Ah you misunderstand. I am only saying that the poster is incorrect in talking about control. I am not in anyway saying that KeSPA players have worse control. In fact, I would EXPECT them to have better control. But if you want to say that his problem was he didn't move his immortals, you are also at the same time saying MC has better control. Maybe it is true, maybe it is not, but I am not arguing that AT ALL.
But since that is not ALL You were saying allow me to help you understand why what you are saying is actually not correct . If BW mechanical skills do not directly transfer, then there is no KeSPA advantage. So you must not be saying that. Instead, you are saying that somehow clicking an immortal and right clicking somewhere else (or even pressing a hotkey and right clicking somewhere else) is EXCLUSIVE to sc2. I don't think I need to say anything further there.
uh thats what i was saying -__-/ mc DOES have better control than best lol. Best had 3 immortals out and still lost to stalkers (yeah the ff messed him up a lot). What I was trying to say was the mc best games wasn't as one sided rape as the Jangbi DRG game.
And whatevername is right. Best was known for his CRAZY macro, not micro.
I see interesting parallels between KESPA and stephano.
It seems to be like in physics, there always has to be some sort of equilibrium - if there is matter, antimatter has to be there as well:
stephano was one of the most hyped players ever, in fact his hype bandwagon was increasing unbelievably fast - and guess what increased at the same pace? Yes, the hater-bandwagon. You could have founded some sort of ANTI-stephano fanclub on this website. stephano could have gone for a 30-game winstreak - if he lost the 31st game people would go "OMFG OVERRATED". this had been lasting for like a year until the last hater finally shut up
the kespa players are hyped in a similar fashion and the amount of haters is already incredibly high. kespa players are performing really well and even had some 10game-winstreak in WCS. but still every time they lose a single game, you can see the haters coming out of their hole and go crazy about how this elephant blahblah is the wrongest theory of all times
On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote: I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
You say his problem was control on his immortals? And for some reason you expect me to believe in the KeSPA advantage when an ESF guy has better control? Isn't control game independent?
Now this is not to say that KeSPA advantage doesn't exist, but don't say something about control. If MC has better control, than this whole bw thing has superior control is simultaneously being melted.
EDIT: which ofc I don't think you are trying to say. So dont say it
MC was a bw player, he was just a shitty one. Best has always been known to have shitty control, and no control is not entirely independent. Obviously theres a correlation between games but the units genuinely do interact different. Pretty ridiculous to say its being melted when mediocre bw tosses just raped the two best terran in the world...
Ah you misunderstand. I am only saying that the poster is incorrect in talking about control. I am not in anyway saying that KeSPA players have worse control. In fact, I would EXPECT them to have better control. But if you want to say that his problem was he didn't move his immortals, you are also at the same time saying MC has better control. Maybe it is true, maybe it is not, but I am not arguing that AT ALL.
But since that is not ALL You were saying allow me to help you understand why what you are saying is actually not correct . If BW mechanical skills do not directly transfer, then there is no KeSPA advantage. So you must not be saying that. Instead, you are saying that somehow clicking an immortal and right clicking somewhere else (or even pressing a hotkey and right clicking somewhere else) is EXCLUSIVE to sc2. I don't think I need to say anything further there.
uh thats what i was saying -__-/ mc DOES have better control than best lol. Best had 3 immortals out and still lost to stalkers (yeah the ff messed him up a lot). What I was trying to say was the mc best games wasn't as one sided rape as the Jangbi DRG game.
And whatevername is right. Best was known for his CRAZY macro, not micro.
Alright cool. Best has worse control than MC. So you're saying that he would have won with better control. Yet you admit MC has better control.
You know if I was better than (*EDIT) every person I played I would probably win all the time too.
EDIT: Your argument implies that he has better control than he does and would normally be able to control those immortals. Essentially you are expecting him to play better than he is. Which I would say is the first 'totally ridiculous' thing to be said in our little back and forth.
Live threads are absolutely terrible to read these days. The amount of fighting is disgusting. TL is no better than youtube comments or reddit these days. It also doesn't help when a lot of mods are fueling the fires.
On August 30 2012 04:05 Canucklehead wrote: Live threads are absolutely terrible to read these days. The amount of fighting is disgusting. TL is no better than youtube comments or reddit these days. It also doesn't help when a lot of mods are fueling the fires.
Hey where is the love in this post? Its all healthy bickering.
On August 30 2012 04:05 Canucklehead wrote: Live threads are absolutely terrible to read these days. The amount of fighting is disgusting. TL is no better than youtube comments or reddit these days. It also doesn't help when a lot of mods are fueling the fires.
Whatever dude I am having a blast! Reddit / Youtube is all homophobia and name calling. This is 'somewhat' intelligent debate
On August 30 2012 04:05 Canucklehead wrote: Live threads are absolutely terrible to read these days. The amount of fighting is disgusting. TL is no better than youtube comments or reddit these days. It also doesn't help when a lot of mods are fueling the fires.
EPT
