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On August 30 2012 01:55 pak150 wrote:
That MKP game was so strange. I wish he utilized more drop play in the midgame to harass.
Its a little hard considering Rain was playing defensively in the midgame. His army was right there.. he had blink (i think) and cols could easily walk over the cliffs to attack his defend his main from his natural choke (and they did when he tried the 5 medivac drop).
I agree though.. MKP should have put at least SOME pressure on. Rain got his third very easily and MKP didn't even bother denying him. Force Rain to split his army and push at the same time.. The doom drop wasn't the best idea.
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On August 30 2012 02:10 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:02 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:55 disciple wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? Its pretty obvious you paid no attention to the BW scene. Both Flying and Rain were young and very talented rookies with distinctive styles and a lot of potential. Were they going to become the Bisu and Stork is hard to say but the main thing is that they are motivated and good enough to translate their skills to SC2. I believe the main problem with a lot of kespa players is finding the motivation to play and learn a new game. If Bisu was motivated to the bone he was going to catch up to MC/Seed in no time and easily become better than both. The Kespa players that are doing well right now are generally young guys or title hungry dudes like fantasy. All I am saying is those guys are not bw Champions. Maybe they are better than Nestea/mvp/mc were, but their records aren't much better. The elephant article is all about BW Champions rolling ESF players. So far, that has not happened. Actually the elephant article was even more stupid than that. It Was about how Kespa had 300+ Bw players that at any moment could go to SC2 and within a couple months dominate it. That has definitely not happened and the kespa guys have been playing SC2 for multiple months now. But being TL is so BW biased I can see how that parts ignored and is more of "ok ok give them a few more months and THEN they'll dominate!.... in Bo1 format"
I'm sorry but in that couple of months they have been shaming players who have played the game for 2 years. And they are shaming them by having vastly superior mechanics and poise which is resulting in "MVP sure played sloppy today" or "MKP made some terrible decisions and mistakes" which, if you have followed BW much, is a pretty clear sign that one player was vastly out-multitasking the other.
KESPA players are multitasking ESF players into the ground, and without a massive change in the practice structure/schedules for these players, this is going to get worse as KESPA players actually learn the game and the units and the maps (which they still know jack-shit-all about comparably).
The problem is that most current players do the following:
1. Grind games/stream
2. Travel around and play in events
3. Practice less overall and with fewer practice partners than the KESPA players
These 3 things mean that ESF players are not really training so much as scrimmaging and competing. As anyone who has played a sport knows, drills are what make a player better, not scrims, and drills require a specific coaching staff, practice partners, and training regimen to run - something very few non-KESPA teams are structured to do. Players constantly changing teams only makes this worse.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On August 30 2012 00:04 Diizzy wrote:
im surprise peopel werent impress with flying defending the 5 medic drop and while that happens he ff all of mvp units at the third. i actually think best had that if he just kept his units together and go for a later nexus. oh well.
That was the decisive and most impressive part of the game, despite his slight advantage at the time.
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On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s.
Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right.
And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though.
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the vods (trying to watch flying vs mvp) don't have sound again?
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^well said. esf players gotta step it up and practice more. Even Boxer saw this coming. This pains me to say because Mvp is my favorite esf player and I know he can't practice as much cuz of his wrist =(
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On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though.
im not talking about any elephant, i've no idea what elephant is or care.
i just did not like you treating flying and by.rain like some sort of practice partners or b-teamers.
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Why was the Oz game not played?
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These games are Bo1? Lol wtf, why would they do that? These games almost don't matter.
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On August 30 2012 02:30 ThaZenith wrote:
These games are Bo1? Lol wtf, why would they do that? These games almost don't matter.
For you? Because i can bet they matter for players otherwise they are nice actors.
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On August 30 2012 02:28 .vid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. im not talking about any elephant, i've no idea what elephant is or care. i just did not like you treating flying and by.rain like some sort of practice partners or b-teamers.
Well forgive me. I was trying to be objective. Numbers wise they don't look so different than ESFs current ex-BW pros. And that's all I was judging them on.
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On August 30 2012 02:28 .vid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. im not talking about any elephant, i've no idea what elephant is or care. i just did not like you treating flying and by.rain like some sort of practice partners or b-teamers.
Not a good excuse for MVP considering that he just won IEM. Flash had bad wrists at one time too and still smashed people. I am tired of the excuses. Accidently, quoted the wrong person. This was supposed to be a response to rysecakes post.
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On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though.
The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players)
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On August 30 2012 02:23 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:10 hunts wrote:On August 30 2012 02:02 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:55 disciple wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? Its pretty obvious you paid no attention to the BW scene. Both Flying and Rain were young and very talented rookies with distinctive styles and a lot of potential. Were they going to become the Bisu and Stork is hard to say but the main thing is that they are motivated and good enough to translate their skills to SC2. I believe the main problem with a lot of kespa players is finding the motivation to play and learn a new game. If Bisu was motivated to the bone he was going to catch up to MC/Seed in no time and easily become better than both. The Kespa players that are doing well right now are generally young guys or title hungry dudes like fantasy. All I am saying is those guys are not bw Champions. Maybe they are better than Nestea/mvp/mc were, but their records aren't much better. The elephant article is all about BW Champions rolling ESF players. So far, that has not happened. Actually the elephant article was even more stupid than that. It Was about how Kespa had 300+ Bw players that at any moment could go to SC2 and within a couple months dominate it. That has definitely not happened and the kespa guys have been playing SC2 for multiple months now. But being TL is so BW biased I can see how that parts ignored and is more of "ok ok give them a few more months and THEN they'll dominate!.... in Bo1 format" I'm sorry but in that couple of months they have been shaming players who have played the game for 2 years. And they are shaming them by having vastly superior mechanics and poise which is resulting in "MVP sure played sloppy today" or "MKP made some terrible decisions and mistakes" which, if you have followed BW much, is a pretty clear sign that one player was vastly out-multitasking the other. KESPA players are multitasking ESL players into the ground, and without a massive change in the practice structure/schedules for these players, this is going to get worse as KESPA players actually learn the game and the units and the maps (which they still know jack-shit-all about comparably). The problem is that most current players do the following: 1. Grind games/stream 2. Travel around and play in events 3. Practice less overall and with fewer practice partners than the KESPA players These 3 things mean that ESL players are not really training so much as scrimmaging and competing. As anyone who has played a sport knows, drills are what make a player better, not scrims, and drills require a specific coaching staff, practice partners, and training regimen to run - something very few non-KESPA teams are structured to do. Players constantly changing teams only makes this worse.
If by shaming players you mean winning a few games in the loser's bracket of WCS, sure I suppose you can call it that. If you call it winning BO1s, then sure, though TBH BO1s don't mean anything. But no I don't see this continuing, I think once the ESF (Not ESL BTW) stop being so nervous playing the kespa players they'll go back to owning the kespa players like they should've been from the start. Also if you haven't noticed MVP has been having pretty bad wrist problems for quite a while now.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37072 Posts
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On August 30 2012 02:29 Titorelli wrote:
Why was the Oz game not played?
Because he was still stuck in America from this weekend. So he couldn't get to Korea in time due to the storm.
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Ok, and a 10-0 streak at WCS isn't evidence of that? Lol you people crack me up with your nonsense.
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On August 30 2012 02:31 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:30 ThaZenith wrote:
These games are Bo1? Lol wtf, why would they do that? These games almost don't matter. For you? Because i can bet they matter for players otherwise they are nice actors.
Edit: Just noticed it isn't Bo1's it's round robin spread over a few days. So it's not as bad as I thought, but still extremely annoying. I've never seen a round robin of Bo1's spread over multiple days... And yes, for me, Bo1's are lame.
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On August 29 2012 22:06 Irre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 21:51 Wayne123 wrote:
I don´t understand all the Moletrap hate in here. I feel like people aren´t objective because they just want to hate on someone.
I´m aware that Moletrap isn´t on the same level as Artosis or Apollo but he isn´t as bad as people say he is. I don´t know how he was when he casted GSL but in the past 2 days his casting was Ok. Just because his GSL casting might have sucked doesn´t mean that he should get hate for that now. It´s obvious that he improved a lot and people should respect that. I really don't think you've watched enough moletrap. I watched OSL VODs yesterday, and besides the giant pauses in play by play/analysis of the game, and usual wrong calls...he spent literally like 2 minutes of a game giving a full weather report in korea..not just like a little anecdote about the typhoons or a personal story about it; no, it was almost like listening to the weather report on tv.. and then he realized it and continued on with the game. I know he gets a lot of hate, but the guy is in an extremely priveledged position, and it would make sense for him to try to improve but theres been little to no improvement since he started at GOM other than less screaming. Contrast that with casters like Catspajamas and Husky, who have worked hard and gotten WAYYYY better at casting despite not being a tastosis or bitterdam level. It was honestly very disappointing to not have good analysis during those games as well. The kespa players definitely have a different take on the game, and although some of the play was just really basic, there were definite things in how they played that were really interesting and its a shame we didn't get to hear about ANY of that. I mean you always have the option to mute, and fine, but you should be able to see where all the hate is coming from, especially from the internet.
This is a RIDICULOUS argument for Moletrap hate. Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
Husky on his own channel has to talk for maybe 30 minutes maximum at a time doing games he has already watched before, and he usually picks games that are already known to be exciting. When both these players cast anywhere, they get massive breaks in between.
You have to keep in mind Moletrap is casting for 2 hours STRAIGHT by himself. No breaks. He needs to do a god damn double college lecture on the spot. He needs to fill the time. Very few people can fill in a gap for that long, especially not husky. You see Artosis and Tasteless needing to fill time during the GSL all the time, and they don't do amazing in solo casts either.
Moletrap is doing fine and doing a great job. He isn't the best caster in the world but I'm certainly not ripping my ears out listening to the OSL.
I'm actually getting really tired of all the caster bashing that's allowed in these LRTs. I wish the banhammers would be dropping like crazy like they used to.
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On August 30 2012 02:35 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Ok, and a 10-0 streak at WCS isn't evidence of that? Lol you people crack me up with your nonsense. @ rysecakes
User was warned for this post
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EPT
