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On August 30 2012 00:34 Boonbag wrote: all this kespa / esf things are sooner or later going to end with massive bans its really getting old I don't think so, this only encourages competition. It shall all go away of course, when the skill gap will be covered. But still.
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On August 30 2012 00:34 Boonbag wrote: all this kespa / esf things are sooner or later going to end with massive bans its really getting old
im surprised the mods haven't gone on a rampage yet. these LR threads are a fucking disgrace
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On August 30 2012 00:18 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:04 Sinedd wrote: sorry for asking without reading the whole thread but its 106 pages long so..
why wasnt Oz vs Last played ?
also - Kespa players doing awesome !!! :D
nice ! typhoon bolaven delayed the flight. didnt see it in the OP
thanks
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On August 30 2012 00:36 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:34 Boonbag wrote: all this kespa / esf things are sooner or later going to end with massive bans its really getting old I don't think so, this only encourages competition. It shall all go away of course, when the skill gap will be covered. But still.
i'm not talking about the discussion, I'm talking about all the retards
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Wow flying outplayed MVP in that match. Very nice read and execution.
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Wow, MKP choked really really hard. What's wrong with him lately? On the bright side, Kespa players are showing that they're a force to be reckoned with and MC's smash was absolutely beautiful.
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Surprisingly rough results from MKP and MVP. I guess that Bo1 per play day with lots of preperation for a single opponent is not for everyone yet. Congrats to By.Sun, Flying, and MC!
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is there anybody working on translating that dongraegu segment after the games? looks pretty funny xD
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On August 30 2012 00:36 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:34 Boonbag wrote: all this kespa / esf things are sooner or later going to end with massive bans its really getting old I don't think so, this only encourages competition. It shall all go away of course, when the skill gap will be covered. But still.
Didn't know most people here played at OSL. There's no such thing as "healthy" competition on forums. This LR's had proven that for a long time.
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On August 30 2012 00:14 ArvickHero wrote: I think what irritates me the most in these "KeSPA vs eSF" debates is the argument that KeSPA players are lucky/undeserving because they didn't have to build the the metagame/strategies and they have the preparation advantage.
Well shit, if this was BW instead (yea yea I know, shut up) and it was the eSF players switching over, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to take off more than a single series from the top 30 KeSPA BW pros within the same time frame, same advantages and all. Not even the most talented B-teamers, who played years before becoming one, take at least a year to break into the A-team and start taking games off the more experienced pros. I could probably make the same case for a LoL team switching to DoTA 2, or vice versa.
Experience should count for something
BW is completely different; if eSF players switched to bw, it would be the mechanics that held them back, not the metagame. Since mechanics are less of a deciding factor in sc2, Kespa players can do well by studying the already fleshed out metagame. Not saying they are lucky/undeserving, but it is true they are using 2 years worth of eSF players' knowledge and development to their advantage, not like they are starting from scratch.
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On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote: I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that.
The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps.
In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game.
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On August 30 2012 01:23 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:14 ArvickHero wrote: I think what irritates me the most in these "KeSPA vs eSF" debates is the argument that KeSPA players are lucky/undeserving because they didn't have to build the the metagame/strategies and they have the preparation advantage.
Well shit, if this was BW instead (yea yea I know, shut up) and it was the eSF players switching over, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to take off more than a single series from the top 30 KeSPA BW pros within the same time frame, same advantages and all. Not even the most talented B-teamers, who played years before becoming one, take at least a year to break into the A-team and start taking games off the more experienced pros. I could probably make the same case for a LoL team switching to DoTA 2, or vice versa.
Experience should count for something BW is completely different; if eSF players switched to bw, it would be the mechanics that held them back, not the metagame. Since mechanics are less of a deciding factor in sc2, Kespa players can do well by studying the already fleshed out metagame. Not saying they are lucky/undeserving, but it is true they are using 2 years worth of eSF players' knowledge and development to their advantage, not like they are starting from scratch.
But you can't win game in BW by solely rely on your mechanics. Flash's streak in the last ProLeague have been nothing but strategical plays that anyone is able to execute. They were clever, they were smart, they were deadly. Only he himself have thought about them. You can totally rock the opposition with strategical reliant builds.
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Just me or is there no sound in the VODS?
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On August 30 2012 01:23 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:14 ArvickHero wrote: I think what irritates me the most in these "KeSPA vs eSF" debates is the argument that KeSPA players are lucky/undeserving because they didn't have to build the the metagame/strategies and they have the preparation advantage.
Well shit, if this was BW instead (yea yea I know, shut up) and it was the eSF players switching over, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to take off more than a single series from the top 30 KeSPA BW pros within the same time frame, same advantages and all. Not even the most talented B-teamers, who played years before becoming one, take at least a year to break into the A-team and start taking games off the more experienced pros. I could probably make the same case for a LoL team switching to DoTA 2, or vice versa.
Experience should count for something BW is completely different; if eSF players switched to bw, it would be the mechanics that held them back, not the metagame. Since mechanics are less of a deciding factor in sc2, Kespa players can do well by studying the already fleshed out metagame. Not saying they are lucky/undeserving, but it is true they are using 2 years worth of eSF players' knowledge and development to their advantage, not like they are starting from scratch.
If you watched all the kespa vs gsl games, the general trend is that the Kespa players have BETTER mechanics than the gsl players. Whats holding them back right now is game understanding, especially when it comes to what to do in lategame.
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On August 30 2012 01:23 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 00:14 ArvickHero wrote: I think what irritates me the most in these "KeSPA vs eSF" debates is the argument that KeSPA players are lucky/undeserving because they didn't have to build the the metagame/strategies and they have the preparation advantage.
Well shit, if this was BW instead (yea yea I know, shut up) and it was the eSF players switching over, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to take off more than a single series from the top 30 KeSPA BW pros within the same time frame, same advantages and all. Not even the most talented B-teamers, who played years before becoming one, take at least a year to break into the A-team and start taking games off the more experienced pros. I could probably make the same case for a LoL team switching to DoTA 2, or vice versa.
Experience should count for something BW is completely different; if eSF players switched to bw, it would be the mechanics that held them back, not the metagame. Since mechanics are less of a deciding factor in sc2, Kespa players can do well by studying the already fleshed out metagame. Not saying they are lucky/undeserving, but it is true they are using 2 years worth of eSF players' knowledge and development to their advantage, not like they are starting from scratch.
Please don't say completely different for these two games. Even WC3 is not completely different from BW and SC2. For BW and SC2, mechanics are always the most important thing, that's the only thing you can fall back on. You can not base your game on smartness, because nobody is stupid.
Chess and SC2 are completely different though.
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On August 30 2012 00:18 -visnu- wrote:bw > sc2, no surprises here guys 
Why is this guy not even warned already?
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On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote: I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game.
So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right?
Oh...
But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable.
Oh...
So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again?
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Ouch, those elephants hurt. MKP doesn't surprise me, but Mvp? His wrists must be getting bad T_T
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