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On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players)
Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning.
So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been.
BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'.
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On August 30 2012 00:14 ArvickHero wrote:
I think what irritates me the most in these "KeSPA vs eSF" debates is the argument that KeSPA players are lucky/undeserving because they didn't have to build the the metagame/strategies and they have the preparation advantage.
Well shit, if this was BW instead (yea yea I know, shut up) and it was the eSF players switching over, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to take off more than a single series from the top 30 KeSPA BW pros within the same time frame, same advantages and all. Not even the most talented B-teamers, who played years before becoming one, take at least a year to break into the A-team and start taking games off the more experienced pros. I could probably make the same case for a LoL team switching to DoTA 2, or vice versa.
Experience should count for something
This. Elephant or no elephant, if the tables were turned the results wouldn't even be close. ESF might have a couple cute BO wins but the chances of them taking a mid/long macro game like the MKP or MVP game are slim to none.
Just wait for the season to end guys. I'd say if all goes lucky and well Rain might actually have a chance to make it to the ro4 or even finals 
Baby too once he gets his macro down. He shoulda expanded earlier in his game... He didn't even get a third CC so no extra op mule for him.
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I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
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On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote:
I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!"
Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
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On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'.
Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol.
Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing.
Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin
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On August 30 2012 02:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:35 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Ok, and a 10-0 streak at WCS isn't evidence of that? Lol you people crack me up with your nonsense. @ rysecakes
And how did they end up in the losers bracket? Plz inform me.
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On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'.
Some players adjust faster than others. Flash had to lose a ton 14ccing every game before he got it to work every game. And no they do not all have the same training regimen. Some started earlier than others (see woongjins early proleague dominance). The elephant writer WAS WRONG in the sense that kespa players will not straight up dunk the esf palyers in a few months. Who knows how long it may take. But it is basically definite knowledge that kespa players will be at the top eventually. If you had watched sc1 and seen how these guys work, you'd know. You aware of the work ethic difference between gsl players and foreigners? It's basically the same gap between gsl palyers and kespa players. Even boxer knows this and has tweeted multiple times that the esf players better get to fuckin work if they wanna survive. These are players who play the entire day in a slave house.
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On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin
And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years.
But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right.
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On August 30 2012 02:51 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Some players adjust faster than others. Flash had to lose a ton 14ccing every game before he got it to work every game. And no they do not all have the same training regimen. Some started earlier than others (see woongjins early proleague dominance). The elephant writer WAS WRONG in the sense that kespa players will not straight up dunk the esf palyers in a few months. Who knows how long it may take. But it is basically definite knowledge that kespa players will be at the top eventually. If you had watched sc1 and seen how these guys work, you'd know. You aware of the work ethic difference between gsl players and foreigners? It's basically the same gap between gsl palyers and kespa players. Even boxer knows this and has tweeted multiple times that the esf players better get to fuckin work if they wanna survive. These are players who play the entire day in a slave house.
I am saying so far that he is not right at all. The not as good bw pros are winning against other not as good bw pros.
That is not at all what he said would happen.
If this continues then the elephant post is completely wrong.
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On August 30 2012 02:52 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:
[quote]
The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps.
In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years. But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right.
Like we said, it wasn't a farce at all. That's too extreme. It was lacking the top talents in rts gaming. That's not the same as calling it a farce. Pretty silly word to use.
^ i've already said the article was wrong in the sense that they won't straight up destroy everyone in a few months. We (or at least the majority) understand that the kespa players in time will become the best because of their raw rts talents and slave like work ethics. You're taking the elephant article too seriously
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On August 30 2012 01:55 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? Its pretty obvious you paid no attention to the BW scene. Both Flying and Rain were young and very talented rookies with distinctive styles and a lot of potential. Were they going to become the Bisu and Stork is hard to say but the main thing is that they are motivated and good enough to translate their skills to SC2. I believe the main problem with a lot of kespa players is finding the motivation to play and learn a new game. If Bisu was motivated to the bone he was going to catch up to MC/Seed in no time and easily become better than both. The Kespa players that are doing well right now are generally young guys or title hungry dudes like fantasy.
Well at least somebody has the understanding. disciple is right at pointing out that title hungry players shall do well. I think that they should do better that just well. SC2 is a different game, but vast experience shall help BW players to adapt much more quickly. And if you add up winning spirit and desire to be the best to this, then it could produce another SC2 Flash.
I don't think sc2 players shall not be competitive, surely they will, but they all shall be victims of the Kespa training and much more better resilience. Who shall crumble under pressure and fall apart we shall soon see. In fact, we've already seen the glimpses of that shadow. How far does it reach is another question. It should be indisputable for everyone, that talent is nothing compared to regime and hard work.
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On August 30 2012 02:53 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:52 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:
[quote]
So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right?
Oh...
But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable.
Oh...
So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague. sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years. But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right. Like we said, it wasn't a farce at all. That's too extreme. It was lacking the top talents in rts gaming. That's not the same as calling it a farce. Pretty silly word to use. ^ i've already said the article was wrong in the sense that they won't straight up destroy everyone in a few months. We (or at least the majority) understand that the kespa players in time will become the best because of their raw rts talents and slave like work ethics. You're taking the elephant article too seriously
Right and now the top talents are in SC2 and they are not winning. But their younger, less experienced, and obviously not as good teammates are, and they are winning (not winning it all mind you, but winning some).
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On August 30 2012 02:58 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:53 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:52 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:05 .vid wrote:
[quote]
both flying and rain were rookies that were often playing in proleague.
sorry, what was your argument again? oh, you don't have one? how sad. Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has? If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games. Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha. you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years. But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right. Like we said, it wasn't a farce at all. That's too extreme. It was lacking the top talents in rts gaming. That's not the same as calling it a farce. Pretty silly word to use. ^ i've already said the article was wrong in the sense that they won't straight up destroy everyone in a few months. We (or at least the majority) understand that the kespa players in time will become the best because of their raw rts talents and slave like work ethics. You're taking the elephant article too seriously Right and now the top talents are in SC2 and they are not winning. But their younger, less experienced, and obviously not as good teammates are, and they are winning (not winning it all mind you, but winning some).
Key word- "right now".
Soon you will understand what training 10-12 hrs a day does to a person =P
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On August 30 2012 02:44 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:42 sitromit wrote:
I don't know why everyone's so sruprised about the results. They were to be expected. MKP hasn't been looking good lately, he didn't do well at MLG, lost a bunch of games to foreigners. MVP won a European tournament with a weak line-up, but his TvP has always been his weakest matchup.
Meanwhile Rain looked very solid in the WCS, especially in his ability to play turtle style Protoss.
This really doesn't say much about Kespa vs Esf. Frankly, the selective arguing of the BW fans is a little irritating. When DRG roflstomps the most recent BW champion, it's glossed over with "he didn't have time to practice, he could have won if he hadn't missed that forcefield" etc. But when a Kespa guy wins, "OMG the elephants are crushing the SC2 gods".
The only dominant win from the Kespa guys was really Fantasy over Nestea, and we all know how Nestea has been looking for a really really long time now. He will soon retire, and probably become a coach, mark my words.
I feel bad for the poor Esf players. If they win, well, they were supposed to win. If they lose, "OMG they got stomped, LMAO. Elephants are on a rampage!!!" Kespa players should not be beating SC2 pros with years of experience. It shouldn't be happening, at all, and not around a 50% win ratio like it has been lately. At least, not if the SC2 pros are actually going to have a chance of holding on to the top.
Also to sitromit's comment on DRG beating Jangbi: lollllll. The guy just won the most and the last (giving it even more importance) bw championship. This was literally only four weeks ago. He said he was practicing only BW. And that to a lot. On the other hand Fying and Rain have been going hard on SC2 since last season's proleague ended.
Even in interviews before the games Jangbi said hes not ready to play at GSL level. On the other hand, the guys whove been practicing for proleague sc2 seemed decently confident in their sc2 skills in their interviews.
My point is many Kespa players are holding their own agaisnt the best of the best. Even Best coulda done okay vs mc if he controlled his immortals a little.
Time will tell forsure but the trends are looking goooooood for my kespa boys
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On August 30 2012 02:10 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:02 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:55 disciple wrote:On August 30 2012 01:44 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 01:35 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 23:37 monkybone wrote:
I just feel the need to rationalize this blow...
MKP had the game, he had an insane advantage due to excellent banshee control and macro behind it. Then, he felt the game was won, and actually killing his opponent was merely a formality. He tried to drop which got shut down badly due to miscontrol. He then got stuck to the though of macroing up and then attacking Rain up front, and after several bad engagements they got about even. After that, he got dropped, and I don't think he had the watch tower at that moment, so he didn't see the protoss army moving towards his 4th proceeding to kill all his ghosts. Overconfidence in his position lost MKP the game.
MvP figured Protoss would go standard with his scouting, but even with 2 sentries he didn't go nexus, he went robo. Really non-standard build, and it completely tricked mvp, who had gone fast 3 CC's. I feel like the Protoss could have killed MvP if he had followed up with 2-3 more gates rather than the nexus, but he decided just to pressure, and with the bunkers barely not going up he managed to get a good position down the ramp, allowing the warped in zealots to kill a substantial amount of scvs. Honestly, I think the Protoss build was risky, and if mvp had built the bunkers seconds earlier, mvp would have won that game easily. This was bad luck for mvp, and the game was basically lost after that. The thing is both games showcased just how good mechanically both kespa players are. Look at how rain had a permanent split of his hts, putting a few split up ones in different places of his 4th base, then individually moving in with them to storm and feedback while he sent back his army. It was the best ht control i have ever seen. Then he did small zealot harasses everywhere to force mkp to multitask and picked off a bunch of ghosts for it. Also if you looked at rain's army control, he always micro'ed his deathball to avoid viking fire and emps. In the flying game, the biggest play was when mvp tried to drop in the main, which he did and then attack up the ramp towards the second and finally the third. Flying sent small waves of chargelots to delay, while his main force dealt with mvp's force going up the ramp. Then finally he split his collosus ball and sent half of it to deal with the 6 medivac ball in his main and half towards beating the large force of bio going for his third. He even had perfect ffs at the attack on the third. If you watch games of GSL protoss, they rarely split their collosus ball as well as flying did in that game. So because Rain's control is so good, that would translate into BW championships right? Or atleast a winning record? Right? Oh... But! Atleast Flying's BW record is impeccable. Oh... So wait, the B teamers are winning in SC2, wait, just like they used to?! Because you know, most of the champions are b teamers? So this proves what about the elephant thing again? Its pretty obvious you paid no attention to the BW scene. Both Flying and Rain were young and very talented rookies with distinctive styles and a lot of potential. Were they going to become the Bisu and Stork is hard to say but the main thing is that they are motivated and good enough to translate their skills to SC2. I believe the main problem with a lot of kespa players is finding the motivation to play and learn a new game. If Bisu was motivated to the bone he was going to catch up to MC/Seed in no time and easily become better than both. The Kespa players that are doing well right now are generally young guys or title hungry dudes like fantasy. All I am saying is those guys are not bw Champions. Maybe they are better than Nestea/mvp/mc were, but their records aren't much better. The elephant article is all about BW Champions rolling ESF players. So far, that has not happened. Actually the elephant article was even more stupid than that. It Was about how Kespa had 300+ Bw players that at any moment could go to SC2 and within a couple months dominate it. That has definitely not happened and the kespa guys have been playing SC2 for multiple months now. But being TL is so BW biased I can see how that parts ignored and is more of "ok ok give them a few more months and THEN they'll dominate!.... in Bo1 format"
Why didn't you try to think why tl.net is so BW biased in the first place?
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On August 30 2012 02:59 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:58 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:53 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:52 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:On August 30 2012 02:12 1handsomE wrote:
[quote]
Because they played in the proleague they are comparable to BW Champions and automatically way better than bteamers sc2 already has?
If you are trying to say that (which I guess you are), you would hope they would have won some games.
Both of their TLPDs are not great. I won't hate on them I think they are good players all I am saying is their not TOP NOTCH. Which was the point of the elephant thread. You guys are reacting so weird to this haha.
you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well. so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least. they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s. Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years. But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right. Like we said, it wasn't a farce at all. That's too extreme. It was lacking the top talents in rts gaming. That's not the same as calling it a farce. Pretty silly word to use. ^ i've already said the article was wrong in the sense that they won't straight up destroy everyone in a few months. We (or at least the majority) understand that the kespa players in time will become the best because of their raw rts talents and slave like work ethics. You're taking the elephant article too seriously Right and now the top talents are in SC2 and they are not winning. But their younger, less experienced, and obviously not as good teammates are, and they are winning (not winning it all mind you, but winning some). Key word- "right now". Soon you will understand what training 10-12 hrs a day does to a person =P
Exactly. As of now, the elephant post is COMPLETELY wrong. In EVERY way. But, it has time to become sort-of correct.
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I think it's important to keep in mind that these are Bo1s being played here. Don't try to kill one another over it.
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On August 30 2012 03:00 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:59 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:58 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:53 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:52 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:46 Kal_rA wrote:On August 30 2012 02:38 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:31 rysecake wrote:On August 30 2012 02:25 1handsomE wrote:On August 30 2012 02:21 .vid wrote:
[quote]
you were shitting on their record, pretending like they're not big names, while in fact they were rookies that allkilled mbcgame, hwaseung oz and grabbed best rookie of the year award, to name a few of their accomplishments. also, they were standard in the proleague and they did well.
so please, get a clue next time. yeah, they didn't win any individual league, but to call them b-teamers is ignorant to say the least.
they're bw code a, and they're dismantling your code s.
Okay so are you saying the point of Elephant is that any player that played in Kespa can win games in sc2? I am not disagreeing with that. All I am saying is I am holding of for the best of the best to win CHAMPIONSHIPs to say elephant is right. And just a side note, I think we can agree that to dismantle code S they would have won WCS right? Not part of my main argument though. The stupid part of the elephant article was that the kespa players would destroy everyone in a few months. That hasn't happened, they evened out the playing field in a few months. So in that aspect the article was wrong. But do you disagree that the kespa players will eventually become the best? (not all kespa players) Too early to say. If it is their training, then since By.Sun / gosl(flying) are ahead, I don't see how the others could catch up (they have the same training regimen right?) If it is their natural skills on the other hand, they should already be winning. So in short, to me it doesn't seem to be panning out at all the way the elephant poster said it would be. Looks like the not as good bw players with ambition will continue to be the best, just like it's always been. BUT, I am not definitively saying that it won't. In 2 years, if it's Flash / Jaedong / Bisu etc. winning all the tournaments then I will say 'looks like you were right mr elephant dude'. Dunno if Bisu could ever win an OSL... Especially since its SC2 now lol. Flash needs time. A lot of time. I think he should stop playing so greedy and play safe and get comfy first. Then start cutting corners as he learns every possible timing. Jaedong just needs a tiny little better game sense and hes going to crush everyone and everything in his path. He has the mechanics (duh). Hes had the time to get use to sc2 units and mechanics and has the macro to do his thing. He has the aggressive play from bw. Just needs to know when and where to engage properly and BAM he be chillin And if that happens, I will be the first person to admit that SC2's competition was a farce for the first 2 years. But until that happens, my opinion is so far the elephant post is not right. Like we said, it wasn't a farce at all. That's too extreme. It was lacking the top talents in rts gaming. That's not the same as calling it a farce. Pretty silly word to use. ^ i've already said the article was wrong in the sense that they won't straight up destroy everyone in a few months. We (or at least the majority) understand that the kespa players in time will become the best because of their raw rts talents and slave like work ethics. You're taking the elephant article too seriously Right and now the top talents are in SC2 and they are not winning. But their younger, less experienced, and obviously not as good teammates are, and they are winning (not winning it all mind you, but winning some). Key word- "right now". Soon you will understand what training 10-12 hrs a day does to a person =P Exactly. As of now, the elephant post is COMPLETELY wrong. In EVERY way. But, it has time to become sort-of correct.
Oh is that what you've been arguing. Haha my bad. I don't really care if the top kespa players dunk everyone now or not. I only care if they do it eventually (ideally by the ennd of this year, and definitely by mid next year)
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i never flamed moletrap before
i even like his cast
but seeing the SCV lost tab (29) and then saying "well he not lost a ton of scv 5-7 ca oh yes 7" makes me want to jump out of the window ^^
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On August 30 2012 03:06 CoR wrote:
i never flamed moletrap before
i even like his cast
but seeing the SCV lost tab (29) and then saying "well he not lost a ton of scv 5-7 ca oh yes 7" makes me want to jump out of the window ^^
This. I facepalmed so many times. I understand that he's casting solo, however it doesn't look like he's well prepared enough.
Anyways, these were some pretty fun games to watch. It's rare to see players actually storming vikings. MVP didn't micro them back and they were obliterated in seconds, leaving the colossi on a field day against bio.
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EPT
