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On May 02 2012 02:48 McFeser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:40 mambar wrote:On May 02 2012 02:14 Aocowns wrote:
Hahahhaha, these lists are funny If you find peoples' haughtiness funny I guess. I actually just think half the people posting are pathetic. Woah, settle down junior. While I do think Idra is an excellent player I don't think it is out of the question to place him outside the top 30. This might be the worst point in his career. People do often forget that he has insanely good TvZ, debatably good ZvZ, and JYP-esq
Doesn't come close to mid last year. At that time he lost to players like Socke, DDE and Minigun. Now he loses to Huk, Jiakji and Hero. See the difference?
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On May 02 2012 02:40 mambar wrote:If you find peoples' haughtiness funny I guess. I actually just think half the people posting are pathetic.
Woah, settle down junior. While I do think Idra is an excellent player I don't think it is out of the question to place him outside the top 30. This might be the worst point in his career.
People do often forget that he has insanely good TvZ, debatably good ZvZ, and JYP-esque weakness to Protoss - but it's hard to say how good he is in any of these match ups right now because simply put he isn't getting far enough in tournaments to show us. People know how to defeat IdrA. Go for cheese. Go for early aggression. Pressure him in any way. Do that enough and Idra starts to defeat himself.
Looking at some of the lists that people made I would not place Xigua, bischu, Moonglade and a few others above IdrA (some of the players listed I don't know enough about to say either way). But IdrA is definately not top 10 and I think he would would comfortably sit in the top twenty range (on a good day). But when IdrA is defeating himself, I would be worried that actionJesuz would be able to defeat IdrA in a Macro game.
Edit: apparantly I posted this comment already halfway through. Sorry. Will delete the other one.
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On May 02 2012 02:55 McFeser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:40 mambar wrote:On May 02 2012 02:14 Aocowns wrote:
Hahahhaha, these lists are funny If you find peoples' haughtiness funny I guess. I actually just think half the people posting are pathetic. Woah, settle down junior. While I do think Idra is an excellent player I don't think it is out of the question to place him outside the top 30. This might be the worst point in his career. People do often forget that he has insanely good TvZ, debatably good ZvZ, and JYP-esque weakness to Protoss - but it's hard to say how good he is in any of these match ups right now because simply put he isn't getting far enough in tournaments to show us. People know how to defeat IdrA. Go for cheese. Go for early aggression. Pressure him in any way. Do that enough and Idra starts to defeat himself. Looking at some of the lists that people made I would not place Xigua, bischu, Moonglade and a few others above IdrA (some of the players listed I don't know enough about to say either way). But IdrA is definately not top 10 and I think he would would comfortably sit in the top twenty range (on a good day). But when IdrA is defeating himself, I would be worried that actionJesuz would be able to defeat IdrA in a Macro game. Edit: apparantly I posted this comment already halfway through. Sorry. Will delete the other one.
I don't care how much you hate Idra, but saying actionjesuz is even close to Idra is just bullshit. Bad day or not, Idra could wipe his ass with a player like actionjezuz if he went macro
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On May 02 2012 01:32 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:31 SayTT wrote:On May 01 2012 20:01 Aocowns wrote:On May 01 2012 19:23 niteReloaded wrote:
I don't rate Morrow too highly, coz I didn't see any real proof of quality lately, but based on how terribad Idra is, I think the Swede takes this...
btw Idra should either quit progaming, or hire a shrink, he's stuck in his "I should be winning because I do stuff that are 1% +EV, but since every possible circumstance is agianst me, I lose, and am frustrated - therefore ragequit to protest against those painful circumstances" mindset for too long, while for example Stephano rapes even Asian asses and goes to the bank over and over. Hahahahah, quit progaming when he is well etablished in top10 foreigners? That's just stupid ;o You don't know Idra, and you are still able to evaluate how his mind works? Can you teach me how to do that to people I don't know? What are you talking about? Idra is probobly not even top 30. ... Not even going to respond further with that
You can name 10 players stronger in play than idra pretty easily in terms of play.
Thorzain, Stephano, Sen, Naniwa, Titan, Mana, Ret, Sheth, HuK, Nerchio, Kas, DIMAGA, Sjow, Happy, White-Ra, Illusion
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On May 02 2012 01:11 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:07 Dexington wrote:On May 02 2012 00:56 ZisforZerg wrote:
IdrA is known for his ZvT beating players like Bomber, MVP, and MKP. On the other hand MorroW is a monster at TvZ, beating none other than the a ZvT specialist in Leenock in a Bo7. This should be a fantastic series, IdrA fighting!~ Okay, we cannot be giving him credit for series that happened MONTHS ago. Fact of the matter is that Idra hasn't beaten anyone of note since Supernova at the IEM WC. MvP and Thorzain in ironsquid like a month ago. Min in something a few weeks ago. (EGMC maybe?) Those three are all fairly skilled players who he has beaten recently.
Online cross server lag. I dont know how many times I heard the TL community say online means nothing
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On May 02 2012 03:00 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:32 Aocowns wrote:On May 02 2012 01:31 SayTT wrote:On May 01 2012 20:01 Aocowns wrote:On May 01 2012 19:23 niteReloaded wrote:
I don't rate Morrow too highly, coz I didn't see any real proof of quality lately, but based on how terribad Idra is, I think the Swede takes this...
btw Idra should either quit progaming, or hire a shrink, he's stuck in his "I should be winning because I do stuff that are 1% +EV, but since every possible circumstance is agianst me, I lose, and am frustrated - therefore ragequit to protest against those painful circumstances" mindset for too long, while for example Stephano rapes even Asian asses and goes to the bank over and over. Hahahahah, quit progaming when he is well etablished in top10 foreigners? That's just stupid ;o You don't know Idra, and you are still able to evaluate how his mind works? Can you teach me how to do that to people I don't know? What are you talking about? Idra is probobly not even top 30. ... Not even going to respond further with that You can name 10 players stronger in play than idra pretty easily in terms of play. Thorzain, Stephano, Sen, Naniwa, Titan, Mana, Ret, Sheth, HuK, Nerchio, Kas, DIMAGA, Sjow, Happy, White-Ra, Illusion
10? Possibly, but not easily. 30? No.
On that list of yours I disagree with Titan, Sheth, Dimaga, Sjow, Happy and WhiteRa. Not sure about Mana(Overall I say Idra, but 1v1 Mana maybe). Not sure about Sen, Ret or Kas either. Probably Ret, but have we even seen LAN play from Sen recently?
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On May 02 2012 02:12 joshrogan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:46 iamperfection wrote:On May 02 2012 01:40 sVnteen wrote:On May 02 2012 01:32 Aocowns wrote:On May 02 2012 01:31 SayTT wrote:On May 01 2012 20:01 Aocowns wrote:On May 01 2012 19:23 niteReloaded wrote:
I don't rate Morrow too highly, coz I didn't see any real proof of quality lately, but based on how terribad Idra is, I think the Swede takes this...
btw Idra should either quit progaming, or hire a shrink, he's stuck in his "I should be winning because I do stuff that are 1% +EV, but since every possible circumstance is agianst me, I lose, and am frustrated - therefore ragequit to protest against those painful circumstances" mindset for too long, while for example Stephano rapes even Asian asses and goes to the bank over and over. Hahahahah, quit progaming when he is well etablished in top10 foreigners? That's just stupid ;o You don't know Idra, and you are still able to evaluate how his mind works? Can you teach me how to do that to people I don't know? What are you talking about? Idra is probobly not even top 30. ... Not even going to respond further with that well he's right lol idra in his current form is probably not top 30 foreigners... he has really fallen off in the last months Easy way to settle this. Name 30 that are better. List of 30 international players that are better than Idra right now, could probably go to 40-50 + Show Spoiler +1.Thorzain
2.Stephano
3.Sen
4.Titan
5.LiveZerg
6.Snute
7.huk
8.happy
9.strelok
10.bly
11.sase
12.naniwa
13.hasuobs
14.sjow
15.nerchio
16.morrow
17.tlo
18.grubby
19.sheth
20.fraer
21.feast
22.bling
23.socke
24.bischu
25.darkforce
26.nightend
27.elfi
28.whitera
29.dimaga
30.mana
Somehow I feel scarlett and Illusion fits in somewhere on this list.
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On May 02 2012 02:58 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:55 McFeser wrote:On May 02 2012 02:40 mambar wrote:On May 02 2012 02:14 Aocowns wrote:
Hahahhaha, these lists are funny If you find peoples' haughtiness funny I guess. I actually just think half the people posting are pathetic. Woah, settle down junior. While I do think Idra is an excellent player I don't think it is out of the question to place him outside the top 30. This might be the worst point in his career. People do often forget that he has insanely good TvZ, debatably good ZvZ, and JYP-esque weakness to Protoss - but it's hard to say how good he is in any of these match ups right now because simply put he isn't getting far enough in tournaments to show us. People know how to defeat IdrA. Go for cheese. Go for early aggression. Pressure him in any way. Do that enough and Idra starts to defeat himself. Looking at some of the lists that people made I would not place Xigua, bischu, Moonglade and a few others above IdrA (some of the players listed I don't know enough about to say either way). But IdrA is definately not top 10 and I think he would would comfortably sit in the top twenty range (on a good day). But when IdrA is defeating himself, I would be worried that actionJesuz would be able to defeat IdrA in a Macro game. Edit: apparantly I posted this comment already halfway through. Sorry. Will delete the other one. I don't care how much you hate Idra, but saying actionjesuz is even close to Idra is just bullshit. Bad day or not, Idra could wipe his ass with a player like actionjezuz if he went macro
Nah, I was just making a point. Of course actionJesuz sucks, I was just saying that when IdrA tilts I'm worried that anyone could defeat him. And I don't hate IdrA, I just don't think he is very good right now. That being said, I think he's equal in terms of skill to MorroW.
Edit: can someone remind me why Titan is really good? I saw someone list him in the top 3 and besides a few great tournament results I didn't think he could ever rank up that highly.
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On May 02 2012 03:02 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:00 DamageControL wrote:On May 02 2012 01:32 Aocowns wrote:On May 02 2012 01:31 SayTT wrote:On May 01 2012 20:01 Aocowns wrote:On May 01 2012 19:23 niteReloaded wrote:
I don't rate Morrow too highly, coz I didn't see any real proof of quality lately, but based on how terribad Idra is, I think the Swede takes this...
btw Idra should either quit progaming, or hire a shrink, he's stuck in his "I should be winning because I do stuff that are 1% +EV, but since every possible circumstance is agianst me, I lose, and am frustrated - therefore ragequit to protest against those painful circumstances" mindset for too long, while for example Stephano rapes even Asian asses and goes to the bank over and over. Hahahahah, quit progaming when he is well etablished in top10 foreigners? That's just stupid ;o You don't know Idra, and you are still able to evaluate how his mind works? Can you teach me how to do that to people I don't know? What are you talking about? Idra is probobly not even top 30. ... Not even going to respond further with that You can name 10 players stronger in play than idra pretty easily in terms of play. Thorzain, Stephano, Sen, Naniwa, Titan, Mana, Ret, Sheth, HuK, Nerchio, Kas, DIMAGA, Sjow, Happy, White-Ra, Illusion 10? Possibly, but not easily. 30? No. On that list of yours I disagree with Titan, Sheth, Dimaga, Sjow, Happy and WhiteRa. Not sure about Mana(Overall I say Idra, but 1v1 Mana maybe). Not sure about Sen, Ret or Kas either. Probably Ret, but have we even seen LAN play from Sen recently?
Sure, these are just ones that came to mind. TLO and Sheth both look a little stronger. I forgot snute. At least Happy wins his CW games, he looks amazing occasionally. Idra barely beat cruncher. I say Mana for sure.
However, what has idra done lately either? Yeah, sure, these players aren't showing huge results. But neither is he.
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On May 02 2012 02:04 Aocowns wrote:
Oh I dunno, the part where he competes with Koreans? Name 30 other foregeigners that can take a series off of Jiakji, Bomber and players like that. oh that's right, you can't -.- Look at the TLPD, LiveZerg and Titan are present in the top5. That does not make them even remotely close to the actualy top5 foreigners
A series? I'm not surprised your memory is faulty; IdrA's performance has probably caused some real trauma to his fans.
He took a single game in a Bo3 against Jiakji and Bomber at IPL4. He lost 0-2 to MMA and GhostKing. If you think him taking a single game makes him competitive (making him "top 5"), then we can argue that CrunCher is competitive with IdrA (putting him out of the "top 50"). So winning single games don't give you the whole picture.
Let's look at IdrA's 2012 results:
GSL Code S
1-2 Lucky
0-2 Nestea
ESV TV
0-4 TaeJa
NASL Team League
1-4 Leenock, Hero, Thorzain, Axslav, SaSe
GSL Code A
0-2 Avenge
NASL Sunday Showdown
0-4 Alive
Iron Squid
0-2 MC
0-2 Symbol
2-0 MVP note: MVP didn't have use of his wrists for this series
2-1 Thorzain
MLG Winter Arena
1-2 Oz
0-2 Nestea
MLG Winter Championship
2-0 Jinro
2-1 Inori
0-2 JYP
0-2 Polt
IPL 4
1-2 Bomber
0-2 MMA
0-2 GhostKing
1-2 Jjakji
IEM Season 6
0-2 ReaL
0-2 Feast
0-2 Kas
1-2 DarkForce
2-1 SuperNova
NASL Season 3
2-1 CrunCher
0-2 Alicia
EG Master's cup
0-2 ClouD
1-2 DRG
2-1 Min
2-1 Domorin
0-2 HerO
I'm probably missing some results, but he basically takes only the occasional game off tier-1 players (anyone who would consistently be Code B or higher). It's usually 0-2. And against tier-2 players (people who don't have any real wins, but make occasional small runs in foreign tournaments, etc.) IdrA is 50/50. He's also dropped some to tier-3 players ("progamers" who fill up tournament slots but never get past the first or second round). That makes him middle / high middle Tier 2.
Is he top 15? top 30? It doesn't really matter. In the foreign scene only about 5 people are contenders, and IdrA isn't one of them. The next ~20 people are part of the scene, but haven't put up any results in some time. Because of that, it's impossible to rank them precisely. And that's where IdrA is.
I really, really, really hope IdrA comes out of his rut and gets back to his former place in the top 5. He's the only U.S. player that has put up good results historically. But all I see is him doing what's comfortable--playing NR20 min ok? games--and quitting when things are uncomfortable (like when he gets cannon rushed on ladder). If he quits and he thinks "ok, I should have scouted at X location at Y min, I wasn't prepared because of Z factors" that's fine. Maybe he is, I can't read his mind. But based on what I've seen he quits and blames everything except himself. And so IdrA's decision-making and scouting is in 2011 while all the contenders' skills are in 2012.
Ironically, his own fanboys contribute to his 2012 performance. They enable his quitting atittude by, as an example, justifying his pissed off 2x 6-pool against aLive, saying that aLive cheesed first by going mass hellions or whatever (see thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=314767). But every Korean terran does the same thing once in a while, precisely because it's medium risk and high reward. Stephano got demolished by something similar against Polt, learned from it, and when someone tried it again at IPL4 he scouted it and held it off to win the game. And DRG or Leenock or Nestea would scout it and hold it off most of the time too. So would a lot of Code A/B level zergs. IdrA hasn't learned how to do this.
Take a look at Polt's response to his opponent here http://www.twitch.tv/tslpolt/b/316683050?t=7m30s and ask yourself where IdrA is. Obviously you can't compare Terran and Zerg exactly, but IdrA is at least two steps behind. 1) He would not have scouted it in the first place because he doesn't ever do the zerg equivalent of timing pushes to force the opponent to show their hand. 2) Polt's decision after seeing the 7 sentries was to go back, bunker up, wall up, switch to maruders, pull SCVs and it resulted in him barely holding. IdrA's decision-making under stress is not at that level.
I typed a lot, but it's really only in hopes that IdrA gets better. If fanboys continue to say "oh he's still top 5 and he's just in a slump" it makes things worse, because when you watch his games, it's clear that it's not just bad luck or slip ups in micro. IdrA has to move forward. It's not 2011 where every game was one of three build orders. Every other game now features an odd timing push where you scout or you die.
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I want to say that IdrA is doing better than his haters think, but his results in 2012 are, sadly, horrible.
He is playing better players than other foreigners, but removing every Korean player from his TLPD match list, you have:
2-1 Domorin
2-1 Cruncher
2-0 Jinro
2-1 Thorzain
0-2 Cloud
1-2 DarkForce
0-2 Kas
1-2 Feast
0-1 SaSe
0-1 Sheth
1-0 Axslav
0-1 Thorzain
0-1 Illusion
Giving IdrA a 11-15 = 42% win rate vs. foreigners.
This is ... Bad.
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I'm not going to bother reading your entire post, but I am however going to say: Did you see the games vs Jiakji and Bomber? Idra had the series against Bomber 2-0, but then Bomber had hellions on the right place at the right time when Idra was maynarding. In the last game he did a marauder hellion all in I think, so take what you will from that as long as you see the fact that Idra outplayed Bomber in macro games again. Same against Jiakji, he took a great macro game in the first one, the lost the games early on later because Jiakji did these early attacks and killed his 3rd. MMA is MMA and MMA does not lose vs foreign zergs. We didn't see the GhostKing games, but I think Idra said something about him blindly hard countering Idra or something in one of the games(Don't quote me on this though)
Also, barely winning against Cruncher? C'mon, Cruncher got fuckin murdered -.-
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On May 02 2012 03:18 Azarkon wrote:
I want to say that IdrA is doing better than his haters think, but his results in 2012 are, sadly, horrible.
He is playing better players than other foreigners, but removing every Korean player from his TLPD match list, you have:
2-1 Domorin
2-1 Cruncher
2-0 Jinro
2-1 Thorzain
0-2 Cloud
1-2 DarkForce
0-2 Kas
1-2 Feast
0-1 SaSe
0-1 Sheth
1-0 Axslav
0-1 Thorzain
0-1 Illusion
Giving IdrA a 11-15 = 42% win rate vs. foreigners.
This is ... Bad.
That IEM performance was extremely shitty, there's no denying that >_<
But where did you get The last 5 from? I don't seem to remember them
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^ Yeah, he killed Cruncher. And the 2-1 defeat over thorzain does look pretty good right now . . . . .
He's facing really good opponents Aocowns, but he use to be able to place top 6 at MLG with no problem.
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On May 02 2012 03:20 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:18 Azarkon wrote:
I want to say that IdrA is doing better than his haters think, but his results in 2012 are, sadly, horrible.
He is playing better players than other foreigners, but removing every Korean player from his TLPD match list, you have:
2-1 Domorin
2-1 Cruncher
2-0 Jinro
2-1 Thorzain
0-2 Cloud
1-2 DarkForce
0-2 Kas
1-2 Feast
0-1 SaSe
0-1 Sheth
1-0 Axslav
0-1 Thorzain
0-1 Illusion
Giving IdrA a 11-15 = 42% win rate vs. foreigners.
This is ... Bad. That IEM performance was extremely shitty, there's no denying that >_< But where did you get The last 5 from? I don't seem to remember them
From the IPL and NASTL team matches he's been in for EG.
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On May 02 2012 03:23 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:20 Aocowns wrote:On May 02 2012 03:18 Azarkon wrote:
I want to say that IdrA is doing better than his haters think, but his results in 2012 are, sadly, horrible.
He is playing better players than other foreigners, but removing every Korean player from his TLPD match list, you have:
2-1 Domorin
2-1 Cruncher
2-0 Jinro
2-1 Thorzain
0-2 Cloud
1-2 DarkForce
0-2 Kas
1-2 Feast
0-1 SaSe
0-1 Sheth
1-0 Axslav
0-1 Thorzain
0-1 Illusion
Giving IdrA a 11-15 = 42% win rate vs. foreigners.
This is ... Bad. That IEM performance was extremely shitty, there's no denying that >_< But where did you get The last 5 from? I don't seem to remember them From the IPL and NASTL team matches he's been in for EG.
Oh, kk
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On May 02 2012 03:19 Aocowns wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading your entire post, but I am however going to say: Did you see the games vs Jiakji and Bomber? Idra had the series against Bomber 2-0, but then Bomber had hellions on the right place at the right time when Idra was maynarding. In the last game he did a marauder hellion all in I think, so take what you will from that as long as you see the fact that Idra outplayed Bomber in macro games again. Same against Jiakji, he took a great macro game in the first one, the lost the games early on later because Jiakji did these early attacks and killed his 3rd. MMA is MMA and MMA does not lose vs foreign zergs. We didn't see the GhostKing games, but I think Idra said something about him blindly hard countering Idra or something in one of the games(Don't quote me on this though)
Also, barely winning against Cruncher? C'mon, Cruncher got fuckin murdered -.-
If you don't feel like reading my post, that's fine, but it addresses this exact attitude. Somehow every win against IdrA is a blind counter or a lucky timing push. It's an attitude that IdrA has himself.
But at some point you should wonder, if your opponents blind counter you over and over and over again, maybe you're the one that's not seeing something.
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On May 02 2012 03:34 keindo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:19 Aocowns wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading your entire post, but I am however going to say: Did you see the games vs Jiakji and Bomber? Idra had the series against Bomber 2-0, but then Bomber had hellions on the right place at the right time when Idra was maynarding. In the last game he did a marauder hellion all in I think, so take what you will from that as long as you see the fact that Idra outplayed Bomber in macro games again. Same against Jiakji, he took a great macro game in the first one, the lost the games early on later because Jiakji did these early attacks and killed his 3rd. MMA is MMA and MMA does not lose vs foreign zergs. We didn't see the GhostKing games, but I think Idra said something about him blindly hard countering Idra or something in one of the games(Don't quote me on this though)
Also, barely winning against Cruncher? C'mon, Cruncher got fuckin murdered -.- If you don't feel like reading my post, that's fine, but it addresses this exact attitude. Somehow every win against IdrA is a blind counter or a lucky timing push. It's an attitude that IdrA has himself. But at some point you should wonder, if your opponents blind counter you over and over and over again, maybe you're the one that's not seeing something.
He said that about 1 game....?
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On May 02 2012 03:39 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:34 keindo wrote:On May 02 2012 03:19 Aocowns wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading your entire post, but I am however going to say: Did you see the games vs Jiakji and Bomber? Idra had the series against Bomber 2-0, but then Bomber had hellions on the right place at the right time when Idra was maynarding. In the last game he did a marauder hellion all in I think, so take what you will from that as long as you see the fact that Idra outplayed Bomber in macro games again. Same against Jiakji, he took a great macro game in the first one, the lost the games early on later because Jiakji did these early attacks and killed his 3rd. MMA is MMA and MMA does not lose vs foreign zergs. We didn't see the GhostKing games, but I think Idra said something about him blindly hard countering Idra or something in one of the games(Don't quote me on this though)
Also, barely winning against Cruncher? C'mon, Cruncher got fuckin murdered -.- If you don't feel like reading my post, that's fine, but it addresses this exact attitude. Somehow every win against IdrA is a blind counter or a lucky timing push. It's an attitude that IdrA has himself. But at some point you should wonder, if your opponents blind counter you over and over and over again, maybe you're the one that's not seeing something. He said that about 1 game....?
Just read my post. It presents the entire argument. If you don't feel like it that's cool, but then there's no real point in discussing things.
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I'm not really sure BO1's can really be counted for or against almost either way... nearly same as winning and losing on ladder....
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EPT
