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On April 19 2012 03:28 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:15 ninjamyst wrote:On April 19 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On April 19 2012 01:55 ninjamyst wrote:
let's look at players Naniwa beat to advance to ro8:
2-1 Puzzle
2-0 Ryung
2-0 Genius
2-0 Virus
Besides Genius, the other opponents were borderline Code A / Code S players. It's great that Naniwa advanced, but his groups been pretty easy so far and played to his PvP strength. The real test will come in ro8. Let's hope it's not another coinflip PvP. This is the sort of post I hate. An attempt to denigrate a players achievements by implying his opponents are not very impressive. Nanima has been getting hate because some folks claim he has not earned his place in Code S, he has not proven he is worthy of his Code S status because he got a seed. These haters claim that only those who have worked their way through Code A qualifiers and then through Code A and then through Up/Down matches have 'earned' their Code S status. Naniwa is getting bashed for getting a seed into Code S. Now that Naniwa is doing well in Code S, the players that Naniwa has defeated in Code S are getting bashed and folks like yourself are implying that Puzzla, Virus and Ryung are somehow not 'true' Code S Players. And yet these players who have 'earned' their way into Code S 'the hard way' are now suddenly easy opponents because Naniwa beat them. What a joke! Haters will go to any lengths to bash foreign achievements. I am not saying ninjamyst is a hater but his post disses the achievements of Naniwa, Ryung and Virus. I am not hating. I am stating a fact that his groups have been easier compared to other groups. I would love for Naniwa to beat MVP or Leenock because that shows he really has improved to the level required to take the championship. I agree you are not hating, I just dislike the need to somehow denigrate Naniwa's opponents as being 'borderline Code A'. His opponents were players who have been in Code S in several seasons and have all won games and series in Code S. They are Code S Level, without question. If you had stated that these players were not the favourites to win this GSL then that would be fine. But Code S Level does not mean favourite to win a GSL. That is talking about a further classification of ranking within Code S Level players. There are quite a few Code S Level Players but only very few GSL winners. There is nothing wrong with stating that Naniwa's opponents might not have been the strongest possible opponents he could have faced. Your post seemed to imply that some of Naniwa's opponents were unworthy of even being in Code S. I felt that was disrespecting them, as well as Naniwa for managing to overcome them.
Precisely.
People are putting Code-S on too high of a pedistal.
Not eveyone in Code-S can go to an MLG and expect to dominate it, only the few exceptional players can.
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On April 19 2012 03:25 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:23 SomeONEx wrote:
After HuK hating on Nani on twitter (troll or not), I wonder how he feels being out of code A and having Nani in ro8.
Also, nani fighting!! What did he say?
Chris Loranger @LorangerChris
@QuanticNaNi shouldnt talk so much shit over twitter about my play especially when u emo so hard when i criticize ur unworthy code s seed
I couldnt find what Nani wrote on twitter to him or about it, but Nani responded to HuK's twitter with "  "
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I'm very excited for Naniwa, it's been a long time since a foreigner has done good in GSL. I hope that he can beat the record of deepest foreigner run in GSL! He seems to have a level of dedication and passion that seems unprecedented in most foreigners, at least from the video clips I've seen.
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On April 19 2012 03:34 GreyKnight wrote:
also I think naniwa needs a back and forth series where the opponent actually plays a strong code s level game. the games he's playing are really weak or he just wins.
his games just look less effort on his part and he still wins. his engagements look really sloppy and bad honestly and the pvp vs genius was just weird. like for example, nobody doubts supernova's code s quality when he plays games like that vs genius on daybreak. naniwa needs something like that before it cements his status in my opinion. people are blinded by the fact he's a foreigner but i actually think his opponents played insanely poor.
i dont want to detract from his accomplishment either but code s feels alot less skilled than last season with champions playing poorly and dropping out.
So because he outplayed everyone and capitalized on all his advantages means that the opponents were bad not that he was actually good.
Great positive thinking there.
If he beats MVP - oh man, he has injury
If he beats Hero - we all know it...emotions
If he beats Leenock - he is not that special, lost at MLG also
If he beats July - he is a bw fosile, no good
I feel bad for all these good players that make good things happen but get downgraded by random people for no reason.
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Congratz, NaNi! Well deserved! NaNi has a great shot to get pass to the next round if his next opponent is from group B--Leenock (avg. vs P), July (avg. vs. P), MVP (avg. vs. P), and HerO (avg. vs. P, but it's PvP). Only obstacle would be Parting, Oz, or MKP (looks like the final boss). GL NaNi!
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On April 19 2012 03:46 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:34 GreyKnight wrote:
also I think naniwa needs a back and forth series where the opponent actually plays a strong code s level game. the games he's playing are really weak or he just wins.
his games just look less effort on his part and he still wins. his engagements look really sloppy and bad honestly and the pvp vs genius was just weird. like for example, nobody doubts supernova's code s quality when he plays games like that vs genius on daybreak. naniwa needs something like that before it cements his status in my opinion. people are blinded by the fact he's a foreigner but i actually think his opponents played insanely poor.
i dont want to detract from his accomplishment either but code s feels alot less skilled than last season with champions playing poorly and dropping out. So because he outplayed everyone and capitalized on all his advantages means that the opponents were bad not that he was actually good. Great positive thinking there. If he beats MVP - oh man, he has injury If he beats Hero - we all know it...emotions If he beats Leenock - he is not that special, lost at MLG also If he beats July - he is a bw fosile, no good I feel bad for all these good players that make good things happen but get downgraded by random people for no reason.
it's not his fault his opponents play poorly but it also doesn't mean he deserves the credit of being a top 5 protoss. i'm willing to accept he's a super strong protoss but it's disappointing to see him get far if he doesn't show that many amazing games. honestly from an objective standpoint they've been pretty bland. maybe he needs to play a really strong opponent that forces some way better games
it's not his fault, like i said but some of the credit he is getting is also undeserved in my opinion of course.
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Just thought I'd mention that Naniwa has beaten both MVP and Leenock pretty handily (while I'm sure MVP was suffering from his injury back then, it was not as, for all we know, bad as now and he was still in very good shape at that point unless my memory fails. I'd say they are not the best examples of people who'll truly test Naniwa. MKP and DRG are probably better bets at the moment.
In my opinion though, the current Code S field is very solid and only minor differences between the players. I'd say the vast majority play in the very same league at least (figuratively speaking).
So yeah, I think Naniwa has earned his spot. Calling him a GSL champion and all that jazz is way too soon though. Let's do like Naniwa, just take it one game at a time and enjoy it for what it is.
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On April 19 2012 03:52 GreyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:46 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 19 2012 03:34 GreyKnight wrote:
also I think naniwa needs a back and forth series where the opponent actually plays a strong code s level game. the games he's playing are really weak or he just wins.
his games just look less effort on his part and he still wins. his engagements look really sloppy and bad honestly and the pvp vs genius was just weird. like for example, nobody doubts supernova's code s quality when he plays games like that vs genius on daybreak. naniwa needs something like that before it cements his status in my opinion. people are blinded by the fact he's a foreigner but i actually think his opponents played insanely poor.
i dont want to detract from his accomplishment either but code s feels alot less skilled than last season with champions playing poorly and dropping out. So because he outplayed everyone and capitalized on all his advantages means that the opponents were bad not that he was actually good. Great positive thinking there. If he beats MVP - oh man, he has injury If he beats Hero - we all know it...emotions If he beats Leenock - he is not that special, lost at MLG also If he beats July - he is a bw fosile, no good I feel bad for all these good players that make good things happen but get downgraded by random people for no reason. it's not his fault his opponents play poorly but it also doesn't mean he deserves the credit of being a top 5 protoss. i'm willing to accept he's a super strong protoss but it's disappointing to see him get far if he doesn't show that many amazing games. honestly from an objective standpoint they've been pretty bland. maybe he needs to play a really strong opponent that forces some way better games it's not his fault, like i said but some of the credit he is getting is also undeserved in my opinion of course.
Im pretty sure if grubby did all naniwa has done then hed be top 5 protoss. People dont give the guy enough credit imo.
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On April 19 2012 04:05 Nifel wrote:
Just thought I'd mention that Naniwa has beaten both MVP and Leenock pretty handily (while I'm sure MVP was suffering from his injury back then, it was not as, for all we know, bad as now and he was still in very good shape at that point unless my memory fails. I'd say they are not the best examples of people who'll truly test Naniwa. MKP and DRG are probably better bets at the moment.
In my opinion though, the current Code S field is very solid and only minor differences between the players. I'd say the vast majority play in the very same league at least (figuratively speaking).
So yeah, I think Naniwa has earned his spot. Calling him a GSL champion and all that jazz is way too soon though. Let's do like Naniwa, just take it one game at a time and enjoy it for what it is.
Yeah generally you wait until someone wins a GSL before calling them a GSL champion 
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3/4 of my liquibet (would've been 4/4 but Supernova lost his first set  )
Supernova is so underrated, few other players have his kind of staying power in code S. Also I think it's great Naniwa advanced, watched the matches this morning on VODs was impressed with Nani's play in the second match, first match kinda showed Genius is playing pretty meh right now, deserves to be down in code A until he gets it together.
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8748 Posts
It's hard to tell when a player plays poorly because of the pressure his opponent is putting on him. Sometimes certain timings and strategies are quite confounding when seeing them for the first time in Code S. And once a player kind of establishes his momentum and presence in a match, a lot of players will get intimidated and lose confidence and start making all kinds of random mistakes. I think the dominating player deserves credit for that.
Also when a player commits to something and it works, and he does this over and over again and every time he commits he's winning, well then you can't really call him risky or all-in. For all we know, the only time he commits is when he knows it works.
It seems to me that a lot of viewers cannot tell the difference between luck and skill, whether we're talking about the smallest bit of micro or the strategy of the whole game. Anything and everything that a player does could be done with a lot of knowledge backing it up that we don't know about. Myself included. When I'm trying to learn from a player I'm watching, it's very important for me to know whether he took a risk and whether this thing that appeared to be lucky was intentionally set up. Or when there's a very close call that the player knew would go in his favor but everyone else thought could've gone either way, I need to be able to make the right call too.
When a player keeps winning, you've got to give him credit. That's all it comes down to.
As for attempts at ranking and who belongs where etc, I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that most of those thoughts are in vain. There are a lot of people that can beat a lot of people. Players that can make a deep run in Code S can fail to qualify for Code A for a couple seasons. IMO watch the games, enjoy the fruits of the progamers' hard work, cheer on your favorites, talk about the games themselves and call it a day =]
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36957 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:37 Liquid`NonY wrote:
It's hard to tell when a player plays poorly because of the pressure his opponent is putting on him. Sometimes certain timings and strategies are quite confounding when seeing them for the first time in Code S. And once a player kind of establishes his momentum and presence in a match, a lot of players will get intimidated and lose confidence and start making all kinds of random mistakes. I think the dominating player deserves credit for that.
Also when a player commits to something and it works, and he does this over and over again and every time he commits he's winning, well then you can't really call him risky or all-in. For all we know, the only time he commits is when he knows it works.
It seems to me that a lot of viewers cannot tell the difference between luck and skill, whether we're talking about the smallest bit of micro or the strategy of the whole game. Anything and everything that a player does could be done with a lot of knowledge backing it up that we don't know about. Myself included. When I'm trying to learn from a player I'm watching, it's very important for me to know whether he took a risk and whether this thing that appeared to be lucky was intentionally set up. Or when there's a very close call that the player knew would go in his favor but everyone else thought could've gone either way, I need to be able to make the right call too.
When a player keeps winning, you've got to give him credit. That's all it comes down to.
As for attempts at ranking and who belongs where etc, I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that most of those thoughts are in vain. There are a lot of people that can beat a lot of people. Players that can make a deep run in Code S can fail to qualify for Code A for a couple seasons. IMO watch the games, enjoy the fruits of the progamers' hard work, cheer on your favorites, talk about the games themselves and call it a day =]
NonY........ y u so boss? Oo
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On April 19 2012 04:37 Liquid`NonY wrote:
It's hard to tell when a player plays poorly because of the pressure his opponent is putting on him. Sometimes certain timings and strategies are quite confounding when seeing them for the first time in Code S. And once a player kind of establishes his momentum and presence in a match, a lot of players will get intimidated and lose confidence and start making all kinds of random mistakes. I think the dominating player deserves credit for that.
Also when a player commits to something and it works, and he does this over and over again and every time he commits he's winning, well then you can't really call him risky or all-in. For all we know, the only time he commits is when he knows it works.
It seems to me that a lot of viewers cannot tell the difference between luck and skill, whether we're talking about the smallest bit of micro or the strategy of the whole game. Anything and everything that a player does could be done with a lot of knowledge backing it up that we don't know about. Myself included. When I'm trying to learn from a player I'm watching, it's very important for me to know whether he took a risk and whether this thing that appeared to be lucky was intentionally set up. Or when there's a very close call that the player knew would go in his favor but everyone else thought could've gone either way, I need to be able to make the right call too.
When a player keeps winning, you've got to give him credit. That's all it comes down to.
As for attempts at ranking and who belongs where etc, I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that most of those thoughts are in vain. There are a lot of people that can beat a lot of people. Players that can make a deep run in Code S can fail to qualify for Code A for a couple seasons. IMO watch the games, enjoy the fruits of the progamers' hard work, cheer on your favorites, talk about the games themselves and call it a day =]
Thank you for spreading your wisdom. You sir, are a saint!
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On April 19 2012 04:46 SeeKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 04:37 Liquid`NonY wrote:
It's hard to tell when a player plays poorly because of the pressure his opponent is putting on him. Sometimes certain timings and strategies are quite confounding when seeing them for the first time in Code S. And once a player kind of establishes his momentum and presence in a match, a lot of players will get intimidated and lose confidence and start making all kinds of random mistakes. I think the dominating player deserves credit for that.
Also when a player commits to something and it works, and he does this over and over again and every time he commits he's winning, well then you can't really call him risky or all-in. For all we know, the only time he commits is when he knows it works.
It seems to me that a lot of viewers cannot tell the difference between luck and skill, whether we're talking about the smallest bit of micro or the strategy of the whole game. Anything and everything that a player does could be done with a lot of knowledge backing it up that we don't know about. Myself included. When I'm trying to learn from a player I'm watching, it's very important for me to know whether he took a risk and whether this thing that appeared to be lucky was intentionally set up. Or when there's a very close call that the player knew would go in his favor but everyone else thought could've gone either way, I need to be able to make the right call too.
When a player keeps winning, you've got to give him credit. That's all it comes down to.
As for attempts at ranking and who belongs where etc, I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that most of those thoughts are in vain. There are a lot of people that can beat a lot of people. Players that can make a deep run in Code S can fail to qualify for Code A for a couple seasons. IMO watch the games, enjoy the fruits of the progamers' hard work, cheer on your favorites, talk about the games themselves and call it a day =] NonY........ y u so boss? Oo
NonY coming in with the hand of reason.
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On April 19 2012 03:15 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On April 19 2012 01:55 ninjamyst wrote:
let's look at players Naniwa beat to advance to ro8:
2-1 Puzzle
2-0 Ryung
2-0 Genius
2-0 Virus
Besides Genius, the other opponents were borderline Code A / Code S players. It's great that Naniwa advanced, but his groups been pretty easy so far and played to his PvP strength. The real test will come in ro8. Let's hope it's not another coinflip PvP. This is the sort of post I hate. An attempt to denigrate a players achievements by implying his opponents are not very impressive. Nanima has been getting hate because some folks claim he has not earned his place in Code S, he has not proven he is worthy of his Code S status because he got a seed. These haters claim that only those who have worked their way through Code A qualifiers and then through Code A and then through Up/Down matches have 'earned' their Code S status. Naniwa is getting bashed for getting a seed into Code S. Now that Naniwa is doing well in Code S, the players that Naniwa has defeated in Code S are getting bashed and folks like yourself are implying that Puzzla, Virus and Ryung are somehow not 'true' Code S Players. And yet these players who have 'earned' their way into Code S 'the hard way' are now suddenly easy opponents because Naniwa beat them. What a joke! Haters will go to any lengths to bash foreign achievements. I am not saying ninjamyst is a hater but his post disses the achievements of Naniwa, Ryung and Virus. I am not hating. I am stating a fact that his groups have been easier compared to other groups. I would love for Naniwa to beat MVP or Leenock because that shows he really has improved to the level required to take the championship.
Naniwa has beaten MVP in the past, and ditto Leenock at various foreign tournaments. Plus with MVP dealing with a terrible wrist injury he is quite beatable. If he recovered OTOH..... different story.
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On April 19 2012 04:37 Liquid`NonY wrote:As for attempts at ranking and who belongs where etc, I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that most of those thoughts are in vain. There are a lot of people that can beat a lot of people. Players that can make a deep run in Code S can fail to qualify for Code A for a couple seasons. IMO watch the games, enjoy the fruits of the progamers' hard work, cheer on your favorites, talk about the games themselves and call it a day =]
So true.
Losses don't say much about your potential, which is why I don't think Naniwa's horrible GSL record was indicative of anything.
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On April 19 2012 05:08 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:15 ninjamyst wrote:On April 19 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On April 19 2012 01:55 ninjamyst wrote:
let's look at players Naniwa beat to advance to ro8:
2-1 Puzzle
2-0 Ryung
2-0 Genius
2-0 Virus
Besides Genius, the other opponents were borderline Code A / Code S players. It's great that Naniwa advanced, but his groups been pretty easy so far and played to his PvP strength. The real test will come in ro8. Let's hope it's not another coinflip PvP. This is the sort of post I hate. An attempt to denigrate a players achievements by implying his opponents are not very impressive. Nanima has been getting hate because some folks claim he has not earned his place in Code S, he has not proven he is worthy of his Code S status because he got a seed. These haters claim that only those who have worked their way through Code A qualifiers and then through Code A and then through Up/Down matches have 'earned' their Code S status. Naniwa is getting bashed for getting a seed into Code S. Now that Naniwa is doing well in Code S, the players that Naniwa has defeated in Code S are getting bashed and folks like yourself are implying that Puzzla, Virus and Ryung are somehow not 'true' Code S Players. And yet these players who have 'earned' their way into Code S 'the hard way' are now suddenly easy opponents because Naniwa beat them. What a joke! Haters will go to any lengths to bash foreign achievements. I am not saying ninjamyst is a hater but his post disses the achievements of Naniwa, Ryung and Virus. I am not hating. I am stating a fact that his groups have been easier compared to other groups. I would love for Naniwa to beat MVP or Leenock because that shows he really has improved to the level required to take the championship. Naniwa has beaten MVP in the past, and ditto Leenock at various foreign tournaments. Plus with MVP dealing with a terrible wrist injury he is quite beatable. If he recovered OTOH..... different story.
He is just trying to get you mad, or discredit a progamers accomplishment.
Either way, I would ignore him and follow NonY's advice and just enjoy the games.
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I'm not a huge Naniwa fan but damn, his play really impressed me last night. Much props.
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naniwa was looking so good last night. outclassed everyone he's faced so far.
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The picture for this VOD on gom.tv says this is 'Free' but I can only watch Game 1
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EPT
