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Everyone knows the drill by now.
Keep it manner and have a good time.
We'll be watching along with you. |
On April 08 2012 15:38 musai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:33 Mysticesper wrote:On April 08 2012 15:31 ZenithM wrote:On April 08 2012 15:23 Akash1223 wrote:
Any objective observer would have to admit that Parting was at a huge advantage and likely would have won the game. It's not 100%, as anything can happen, but it would have taken a string of mistakes from Parting for MKP to get back into an even situation. Game should have been awarded to Parting. I understand how unpopular that would have been as people want always want a regame; but it's supposed to be an objective decision based on the replay, not a subjective one based on the audience. People still need to understand that giving a default win is no laughing matter. It's much more critical and hard to do than calling a regame, which will be the decision called 99% of the time. I have actually no example off the top of my head of a game given to the advantaged player instead of a regame, it would take probably a big advantage in bases AND units AND tech to call it. In fact I would say that it's to the point where the losing player would pretty much have to say himself that he was dead as shit and admit to his loss from his own. It was certainly not the case for MKP. He was still playing to win at that point, a called loss for him would have been at least equally outrageous. TSL 3 delivered a win to one of the players. Forgot the game, but it was done in TSL 3. think it was boxer vs someone else hmmm
Just checked, it's this one I think? + Show Spoiler +
vs Nightend.
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If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1.
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Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:00 LF9 wrote:
You shouldn't comment on this if you didn't see the actual game . . . no amount of outrage generated by this would surprise me short of the internet exploding.
I'm 100% neutral when it comes to MKP, Prime, Startale, etc. and I only watch SC2 to learn about the game and enjoy high level SC2, but the general consensus is that Parting won the deciding battle against MKP and the only thing left for Marineking to do was type "gg". I happen to agree with this consensus, simply because I watched the match and I play SC2 myself. You can argue almost anything you want, but to say Parting could have lost it is insane. It's not his fault that the drop happened and that Blizzard did not include LAN into SC2, nor is it the fault of Prime, Startale, or Parting. It just happened to occur right after Parting won a game deciding battle. LAN or the ability to re-load a game would help, but people are overlooking something, I think; this occurrence foiled Startales entire strategy for winning the finals.
It is clear to see what ST intended to do: send out a solid, versatile player who is a known specialist in PvT yet good enough to win against players that aren't ace-level, so Prime would be forced to send out Marineking and Parting could snipe him. They had the lineup prepared very carefully, and it was insanely obvious that Parting was specifically prepared to take on MKP by the way the game played out, and that the other ST players were not. If they could get an early lead and snipe MKP without using Curious, Bomber, etc. they would demoralize Prime like crazy as well as giving every player in their lineup a match vs a player that have at LEAST a 50% chance to win against. MKP could all-kill ST and they knew it, so they picked one player to train up to eliminate him so the rest of the series would play out; it's easier to train just Parting because he's one player, PvT is one matchup, and he's already a PvT expert. This was their secret weapon, basically. And when the drop happened and the decision was made, Parting was almost certainly demoralized; he had done his job, and now he had to try to RE-SNIPE the ace player AFTER revealing his hand. He had to beat MKP twice, a tall order no doubt. Once the re-game was called, the series was decided. ST was outraged, they did not make a secret about it.
When this backfired and MKP beat Parting's build in round two after getting a 26 minute feel for it, the entire team of ST was demoralized; angry, upset, defeated, DEMORALIZED. They had been cheated, and they knew it. Marineking knew it. Anyone watching could see it in his face after round 2. He knew he had just won a game that never should have been played. Startale was left to throw unprepared knight after knight at the dragon they had already slain. The demoralizing happenings were as much of an effect as the fact that their strategy backfired because instead of sniping Prime's ace, they had drawn him out and had no way to take him back down. That's just how it played out. Had the drop and subsequent poor decision never taken place, Parting might have lost the next game, but the rest of the team would be prepared for their matches and not over-matched. But it was not to be.
Whoever made the decision is just as responsible as Blizzard, perhaps more so, for the tainted final, the giant bold asterisk next to it, and the resulting explosion of anger and outrage from the community. No one will remember this for anything other than the Parting/MKP fiasco, ever. But more unfortunate than Prime's tainted image is MKP's lack of sportsmanship, in my opinion. As I said, I am not a fan of anyone or any team in particular, but Marineking seems like a nice kid. He obviously knew he lost, and had a very guilty look on his face after the rematch. But if he had great sportsmanship, he could have easily circumvented the "impossible" decision made by who-knows-what-morons; a simple SCV rush (re: naniwa) or the like would have righted the wrong, given Parting the much deserved win, and been an ENORMOUS display of good sportsmanship. It most likely would have drawn a standing ovation, and it certainly would have drawn intense respect from anyone intelligent on the internet. The GSTL trophy is tainted, and Prime is tainted for having it. Marineking should have forfeited round two, recognizing his loss and showing great sportsmanship. It didn't HAVE to be this way. However, I have a low opinion of MKP now due to his failure to stand up and refuse to be bound by morally wrong decisions and, probably the fault of Prime, a hunger for victory that overpowers a respect for sportsmanship, the game, and one's fellow players. `He is a great player, but Prime has many very talented players and would have been QUITE capable of going on and defeating ST had Parting's win counted.
I now have a deep skepticism of Prime and Marineking's sportsmanship, and extreme apprehension toward GOMTV, both as an organization, and especially the people at GOMTV themselves who make the decisions. I saw their morals on full display in Las Vegas, and I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like seeing e-sports being disrespected and competitive SC2 be not only made a mockery of, but also upstaged by controversy created by the game's lack of a feature (LAN) which it's predecessor had when it was released in early 1998. I wouldn't want to be in GOM's or Blizzard's shoes right now, and I look forward to a swift emergence by a competitor to GOM (even if it is KeSPA) in Korea. As for Blizzard, they saw the same shitstorm we all did, and also tasted it because about half of it smacked them right in the face, and apparently no amount of public outrage is going to sway their decision on LAN. They know HotS will be bought anyway. They know gamers vote with their wallets while expressing their real opinions via the internet, and that they can get away with selling you a car without an engine for the price of a normal car by telling you it "is hundreds of pounds lighter than the leading model".
As esports becomes bigger (or doesn't), it's important to remember that you, as a consumer, have a right to accountability for issues with the game or with organizations, and to use money as your endorsement. If you are displeased by an event, refuse to purchase a single pass to anything it hosts until it corrects the issue or goes bankrupt. If you are displeased with a game, refuse to purchase any expansions released by the company. While they both speak at events and praise viewers and fans for loving esports and professing to love esports themselves, money is the only language they truly understand and respond to. A 20% drop in sales is worth more than twenty million upset emails. I hope more events are sportsmanlike and fair in the future and avoid making GOM's mistake, and I also hope that Blizzard somehow, someday gets the message and realizes that if they want to market a game which by happenstance has a giant esports market that this type of thing will happen more often with every mistake they make, their brand will be stamped on every public fiasco, and that it is monetarily beneficial to implement any feature that will make it more esports friendly and prevent huge issues at events viewed by people all over the world. They continue to see things happen that could directly be prevented by LAN and I hope that whoever makes THIS decision starts to understand before it's too late.
Great stuff, but you do realize that even if you wrote an essay, the outcome does not change. With that being said, I'd like to remind you what is real life and what is your so-called sportsmanship.
Say you are out there competing in Olympics, similar stuff happened. Are you saying you are giving up the hope of your life that you have worked for years after years to actually admit that something that the outcome is uncertain with the hope of your team behind your back? There are many what-if's scenario and no guarantee outcome in that game. I'm with you that MKP was not looking good, but any so-called sportsman will do exactly the same thing - it's not over until it's over. Put it in SC2's words, it's not over until someone typed GG (or rage quit, obviously).
Look at recent NFL news. What's sportsmanship? An organization that rewards players to hurt other players, and they called themselves pros. In NHL, there are dirty players that are "pros" that are out there to simply hurt people. The true story of sportsmanship is the hunger and the desire to win. I am in finance in RL, and in finance, everything is all about winning. We don't care if you got third, or even second, we only want first place players. (Hence many not-so-moral stories about the money floating in the market, etc. You get the picture.) Unfortunately, this is the world we all lived in. If you give up that easily, you are showing your team that you don't care, don't want it as much as others. Imagine he really did an 6 SCV rush like you suggested, how the entire world look at him? Some may say he did the "right" (again, questionable) thing, or he is just a fool that does not care about winning a game for his team.
The moral story here that you are referring to regarding to MKP just cannot be applied directly. It was absolutely not his fault that he dropped (from what I've understand.. at least he didn't pull any cord). It was not Prime's fault that it just happen the team to send MKP out for that game (one of the major reason why this is such a big story of the night). It is not completely Blizzard's fault (even though extra functions can/should be added to the game so that the game can continue after disconnecting). From my understanding, it was PC that lost connection to the internet. So who's fault is it? Does anyone and/or organization deserved the moral blame?
As a SlayerS fan, I'm no bias towards tonight's game and just wanted to enjoy some fantastic competition. I've lived through SC1 and SC2 by watching legends played game after game after game. I've watched July to dominate in his SC1 days and was really sad to see he was out-classed earlier today. I like MKP for his micro & macro skills, and his ability to make the right decisions to turn the tides and to make creative plays. It is just an unfortunate story that the event had to end this way, and just leave it as it is a move on. I am sure this is what STQ's coach is telling his players right now, or maybe go out to the casinos and have some fun and forget about what happened (or what could-of happened). On the side note, I totally agreed with you that STQ's strategy was out there already. When re-match was called, I kind of knew an all-kill was coming.
At the end of the day, I suggest TL to give this story a rest, and move on. Hopefully Blizzard learned this the hard way and actually make some proper adjustment. There is no winner, we all lost tonight despite some good games played. Unfortunately there is nothing we can change since this is the world we all lived in.
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On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1.
both have to win two games.. both expend the same amount of effort in both games.. your logic doesn't follow.
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On April 08 2012 13:11 rothsbury wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 13:07 Kamwah wrote:I find it funny that people can't see what's logically fair. + Show Spoiler +The rematch was the best option because while MKP was ahead most of the game, Parting was ahead when the network went down. I just really can't see why people have such a problem with a rematch, if Parting was going to win then he would have won the rematch and we'd probably see Parting being the victors here. But this is the internet I guess, where people can QQ and rage at each other and not just calmly discuss or agree to disagree. "What's logically fair?" It's completely irrelevant that MKP was ahead most of the game. All that matters is that Parting would have won if there was no DC. If Player 1 is ahead 90% of the game, but then Player 2 manages to win in the end, it doesn't mean that Player 2 didn't deserve the win or that it wasn't fair - if anything it just makes the victory more impressive. The twisted logic MKP fanboys will use to try and justify an unfair decision.
and I like how your logic all goes by the basic assumption that mkp definitely lost game 1 when the game was actually in progress. 1 minute earlier parting was scrambling to make
forces to protect his 4th. If a dc from mkp came there, Did mkp win?
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On April 08 2012 15:48 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1. both have to win two games.. both expend the same amount of effort in both games.. your logic doesn't follow.
Except it's as if the first game was as good as won but then if you lose the next game you lose the series anyway. Let's put it this way, getting yourself into a position where you have a 95% chance to win, and then having to win the next game vs. getting yourself into a position where you have a 95% chance to lose but you can win the next game and it's ok. They played 2 games, overall parting had to exert more effort to win the series because he was in a very advantageous position over marineking in the first game but it made NO difference for the second game.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 08 2012 13:11 vndods wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 13:10 Kettchup wrote:On April 08 2012 13:07 Tzuborg wrote:
After seeing the two comebacks in the MKP vs Bomber match, there really is no way the game vs PartinG could not be re-done. The comeback factor here can simply not be ignored.
GG, WP, Foxer! MKP had an army advantage in the Bomber match when Bomber thought he had it won, of course no one would be against a regame in that scenario. There was a clear route to victory for MKP, go and kill him really fast. There was no route to victory in the Parting game. MKP had nothing. Except about 10+ production buildings in his base and superior micro. But we'll leave that out I guess.
He was down 30 supply in army against an army that he had none of the proper units to beat (most of MKP's existing army was vikings: he had 6 and 3 marauders). Meanwhile, parting is producing at least as fast as MKP, has a better army (including 8 HT), and MKP has no ghosts or medivacs.
The entire game Parting is fighting off and beating MKP's armies with a supply deficit, now he fights his way to a 30 supply advantage and people think MKP can still win?
Even if parting doesn't win right then and there MKP is doomed in 2 minutes.
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On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1.
If they thought that a re-game was the right choice they wouldn't have taken 15+minutes to decide. Whoever it came down to to make the decision didn't have the balls to give the game to parting. MKP is primes everything. If the series went 3-1 in favor of ST with MKP out of the picture ST is basically on the verge of taking the whole thing. But if they re-game they just start from scratch and the Bo9 will continue basically even. GOM (or just some ref) took the easy way out.
I was enjoying this finals more than anything so far in SC2. I was fucking pumped my heart was racing and then after Parting lost the re-game i felt sick to my stomach. It's so sad. It was shaping up to be one of the best SC2 events and played out in such a depressing way 
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United States7483 Posts
On April 08 2012 15:49 glzElectromaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 13:11 rothsbury wrote:On April 08 2012 13:07 Kamwah wrote:I find it funny that people can't see what's logically fair. + Show Spoiler +The rematch was the best option because while MKP was ahead most of the game, Parting was ahead when the network went down. I just really can't see why people have such a problem with a rematch, if Parting was going to win then he would have won the rematch and we'd probably see Parting being the victors here. But this is the internet I guess, where people can QQ and rage at each other and not just calmly discuss or agree to disagree. "What's logically fair?" It's completely irrelevant that MKP was ahead most of the game. All that matters is that Parting would have won if there was no DC. If Player 1 is ahead 90% of the game, but then Player 2 manages to win in the end, it doesn't mean that Player 2 didn't deserve the win or that it wasn't fair - if anything it just makes the victory more impressive. The twisted logic MKP fanboys will use to try and justify an unfair decision. and I like how your logic all goes by the basic assumption that mkp definitely lost game 1 when the game was actually in progress. 1 minute earlier parting was scrambling to make forces to protect his 4th. If a dc from mkp came there, Did mkp win?
That's the standard for how it looks from parting's style though. MKP's style doesn't survive being down 30 supply, his style is to overwhelm over and over again with a higher supply of units to trade efficiently so Protoss never gets a big ball. Once he's down in supply his entire strategy has failed and he's boned.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 08 2012 15:55 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1. If they thought that a re-game was the right choice they wouldn't have taken 15+minutes to decide. Whoever it came down to to make the decision didn't have the balls to give the game to parting. MKP is primes everything. If the series went 3-1 in favor of ST with MKP out of the picture ST is basically on the verge of taking the whole thing. But if they re-game they just start from scratch and the Bo9 will continue basically even. GOM (or just some ref) took the easy way out. I was enjoying this finals more than anything so far in SC2. I was fucking pumped my heart was racing and then after Parting lost the re-game i felt sick to my stomach. It's so sad. It was shaping up to be one of the best SC2 events and played out in such a depressing way
Actually it's the other way around: it's generally the default position to go to a regame. Unless you actually think one player had the win clearly, it takes almost no time to decide a regame. That it took this long means a lot of them were leaning towards giving it to parting.
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I find it hillarious that people are blaming Prime and/or MKP for winning the game :D
"omg MKP soiled this final" , "Prime has lost their good reputiton!"
wtf is that all about?
There was a ruling, a very tough one at that, some will argue that it was wrong, some will argue that it was right.... but none of it will change that it happened, MKP showed very impressive play as usual and prime won the game. PartinG and StarTale ofc doesnt leave empty handed.... also seeing how PartinG opened the eyes of alot of people, including myself. I am sure gonna cheer for him more often.
Any1 hating on the team or the player for the referees decision should do everyone a favor and stop wasting our air.
Ps. I see a great future for e-sports as we now also have drama over referee decisions, just like all other major sports!
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On April 08 2012 15:55 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1. If they thought that a re-game was the right choice they wouldn't have taken 15+minutes to decide. Whoever it came down to to make the decision didn't have the balls to give the game to parting. MKP is primes everything. If the series went 3-1 in favor of ST with MKP out of the picture ST is basically on the verge of taking the whole thing. But if they re-game they just start from scratch and the Bo9 will continue basically even. GOM (or just some ref) took the easy way out. I was enjoying this finals more than anything so far in SC2. I was fucking pumped my heart was racing and then after Parting lost the re-game i felt sick to my stomach. It's so sad. It was shaping up to be one of the best SC2 events and played out in such a depressing way
I think most people looking at the game would say that Parting had AT LEAST a 90% chance to win that game. But then they bring it back to 50/50 because it's not 100% clear. There was also probably business reasons that affected that decision. You have MKP, one of the most popular players in the game and the ace of Prime playing after all.
The thing they SHOULD have done imo that would have been MUCH more fair is award the win to Parting, change Parting vs. MKP to a bo3.
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On April 08 2012 15:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:55 Za7oX wrote:On April 08 2012 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If someone has a 95% chance to win the game, then it should be given to them. Why does it have to be 100% certain that they'd win? It's much more unfair to the person who is in the lead to force a restart and bringing the game back to even because then it's as if they have to win 2 games in a row as opposed to 1. If they thought that a re-game was the right choice they wouldn't have taken 15+minutes to decide. Whoever it came down to to make the decision didn't have the balls to give the game to parting. MKP is primes everything. If the series went 3-1 in favor of ST with MKP out of the picture ST is basically on the verge of taking the whole thing. But if they re-game they just start from scratch and the Bo9 will continue basically even. GOM (or just some ref) took the easy way out. I was enjoying this finals more than anything so far in SC2. I was fucking pumped my heart was racing and then after Parting lost the re-game i felt sick to my stomach. It's so sad. It was shaping up to be one of the best SC2 events and played out in such a depressing way Actually it's the other way around: it's generally the default position to go to a regame. Unless you actually think one player had the win clearly, it takes almost no time to decide a regame. That it took this long means a lot of them were leaning towards giving it to parting.
That is what i said
If they thought that a re-game was the right choice they wouldn't have taken 15+minutes to decide.
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I still think simply calling it a draw and eliminating both players would have been a pretty decent solution.
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Did anyone document Browder's reaction when MKP dropped?
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it's a tough choice to make, guys. there would've been public outrage no matter which decision was taken.
I'm really sad that things like that happen and it really is Blizzard's fault. While it's not fun to just blame Blizzard every time this happens, I think it's better than blaming the organizers or,even worse, the players and teams (they have it bad enough as it is). So, yeah, don't stop blaming Blizzard as it's them who's responsible for situations like that. They can prevent situations like that very easily but they decided they'd sacrifice some public approval and gain something else (kespa/china case or whatever it is). Make them regret doing that and one day we might even have LAN
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On April 08 2012 15:00 LF9 wrote:
...they can get away with selling you a car without an engine for the price of a normal car by telling you it "is hundreds of pounds lighter than the leading model".
:D
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Man, the game they gave to Jaedong over Flash was so much closer than this one.
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Fan favorite Marineking gets an all-kill on the big stage in the finals. You got your story, gomtv. Well done
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Wow, turned off the stream to go out when the disconnect happened. Figured they'd give it to Parting and that ST would then win. Did not expect this upon returning.
Not sure why anyone would side with re-game here. It makes absolutely no sense. That was a won position. When was the last time you saw anyone recover from such a position? MKP was down 20 supplies and this included stuff still in production in the barracks. And Parting had a decent army already at MKP's production facilities. Forget 95% like someone mentioned earlier, I don't recall a single game at the GSL level where the protoss actually lost in the end.
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EPT
