On February 27 2012 11:19 TeeTS wrote: It's really amazing how much people are posting here with no idea about how SC2 works.
1st: 12/14 rax vs Zerg: This is very economical opening, cause it forces the zerg to a lot of zerglings and at least one spine early on. therefore terran sacrifices some eco of his own, but it is worth it, if you have a good marine/scv control (and MKP has definately the best in the world, so this is a good opening for him per definiton!), you can expand easily behind that, since you still have a very good income due to constant scv production.
2nd: the fast 3rd in game 6: Did you ever think about what would've happened if DRG scouted the 3rd and made f.e. a roach attack on it early on? MKP did not slide a single scv to this base until he secured the entrance with a lot of siege tanks and marines. the timing of this base was so fast, that it would've been finished, when the roaches arrive there. And then he simply flies back to his natural or main and is fine, cause zerg sacrificed a lot of eco for an attack which didn't do anything because MKP was well defended with a bunker and already a tank out and siege mode nearly done.
MKP didn't play his absolute best, but was near to it, due to nerves as he mentioned. You should not forget that he had the Shakuras game in the bag, if he didn't make that huge blunder, overcomitting into DRG's natural, which made absolutely no sense and was a big sign, that he was nervous and wanted the game to end right there. To come back from such a disappointing lose shows a strong spirit and high skill. He mixed up very agressive styles, several builds and good economic openers. he controlled the final battle very well. DRG took a huge risk, teching this fast to hive and got punished for that.
Overall it was a good tournament, a good production, BUT yes: Where was the fucking winners ceremony. It would've been nice to see the Top 8 alltogether again. I think we have a great Top8 with nice players, that can be happy about really good performances, like violet or Huk (who made his personal little comeback, after doing not so well lately).
And yes. I didn't like Tastosis trashing on MKP even when he won. But they just don't like him, it's allways the same, if you watch the gsl, you know that. They never say a positive word about him, that really fits, only such general phrases like "he is solid, blabla", but are so critical about him (like this 500gas issue: HE wanted to go for dual upgrades, a siege tank and siegemode: these are 425 gas in total!!! And you complain about him having 500 gas? STUPID?). This is the only point I hate about Tastosis. These two are so biased. When Nestea or MVP play, everything they do is gloryfied to be genius, even it's totally common or simple. But MKP, he must've messed up with them. I actual don't know why, maybe they think his playstyle is gimmicky, or they blame him for his stupid decision making, which he showed for a period of time, or they just don't like his character. I DON'T KNOW, BUT PLEASE, don't let this affect your casting this much.
And finally, the best player in the world discussion: Can any1 say, that there is acutally a best player in the world right now? This is just not possible, because these very top guys are playing so much games between them in a short period of time, and taking games off each other day by day. Even naming a top10 could be hard right now, because there are so many good players out there. I think the top16 of the current GSL season makes a good top16 of the world with very little exceptions. But anything behind this, like a top 5 or so in any form, will be so questionable, that it doesn't make sense to discuss about it.
YES YES YES. Thanks for wording nicely the thoughts that my 3rd-language English cant express. The "500 gas" bit by Artosis was completely wrong. The whole game was poorly read, from that opening to the end, where both players knew full well it was over but the casters had no idea what was going on. I dont even blame Tasteless anymore at this point, he seems to follow anything Artosis starts, players bias included.
Quoted for truth. Tastosis bias is starting to get freaking annoying. but they dont care and they wont read this so it doesnt matter. and this goes for MMA too
MMA wins blizzard cup: "DRG should have won 6-7 of those games" MMA wins GSL: MVP was tired MMA rolls through ro 32 and 16: eh Alive beats MMA while MMA is sick: BEST PLAYER OMG SO HOT BEST TVT OGMGMGMGMGM
fuck im so pisssed off about that whatever, #rage
Yeah, only giving credit MMA has a lot of heart... Pissed me off as well, since he's saying it everywhere, on SoTG, on GSL, on his stream~~ Even when MMA beat Oz. I really like Artosis, but I can't stand his biased opinions.
He just hates MMA's style. He is all about passive macro play (MECH!) and suffocating your opponent (Artosis never attacks if you watch him play on his stream) and MMA can basically beat everyone by taxing their multitasking once he gets ahead (which is why he cheeses or plays super greedy like every game). Artosis I believe thinks that if players in SC2 were any good as the ones in Brood War that style would never win but because most players in SC2 suck MMA and MKP can just destroy people with their Micro and Multitasking.
Now he has called MMA, Boxer with Mechanics (huge compliment) and compared him to Jaedong multiple times and when asked about if Brood War players switched over who would still remain and he included MMA with MVP, Nestea, MC, Dongraegu. He knows MMA and MKP are really good. He just doesn't think they play the game optimally. Until the players catch up to their skill level what they are doing will still work and I'm sure they will adapt since both are great players.
On February 27 2012 13:01 Hakkesshu wrote: To be honest, it was also anticlimatic because Tastosis made it that way. Artosis was talking shit about MKP on his gas and all of a sudden MKP won... that's why everyone was surprised because the caster did a poor job at describing the actual game. Not only that but it seemed that both Artosis/Tasteless were pissed when MKP won... instead of congratulating him, they said nothing. It's like MKP had won but they don't want to give him the prize... WTF.
If it was Rob/JP/Wheat/Doa/Wolf/Khaldor casting, it would have been a lot different since they love MKP.
I don't hate Tastosis but their bias against MKP is so freaking annoying ever since the beginning. And this is more obvious from them, when MKP finally broke the curse.
I know exactly what you mean. I can't comment on the atmosphere of the final and the ceremony (or lack thereof) because due to dodgy filtering at work I missed the very end.
Its pretty clear that Artosis has never caught on to all of the love the MKP gets for his stylized play style, his sick micro and him just being adorable. Artosis has always loved the players who have a real understanding of the game. Players like Nestea, MVP, MMA, DRG etc.
Its quite noticeable in GSL, whenever MKP comes around, they usually have the same copy paste stuff... "He's really solid", "creative builds" bla bla bla. He pretty much crushed through It doesn't usually bother me. Good example would be Ro32 this GSL. He absolutely crushed his way through aLive and Happy easily with really solid play, and he didn't even really get a mention from them.
It usually doesn't bother me, but to hear how they acted during and after the final is fairly disappointing.
I think they were disappointed in the -bunker rush, bunker rush, bunker rush, c-c-c-combo breaker early 3rd...
seems like every fighting game spammer I've played online low, low, low, low, mid
MKP did not win a macro game convincingly in this finals...in contrast to MMA at blizzcup.
Look at it this way:
You guys complain about the people who "cheese" saying they have no skills and what not, but what about the opponents that can't even defend bunker rushes, 6 pools, 4gates, etc, strats that "every noobs online can do"? Doesn't that make them even WORST? Hence in the end, the better player still won.
Terrible logic. There are certain things that are easier to execute than to defend.
Point is, everyone at the pro level should be able to defend against the typical cheeses (6pool, 4gate, 2rax bunker) if you are prepared for it; if you die to it, it is solely your own fault for lack of scouting, preparation, or you took a gamble and got greedy. If you can't even defend those typical cheese at the pro level, then you are NOT better than your opponent, period.
typical cheeses are not so in atypical hands.
and like the other guy said.. There are certain things that are easier to execute than to defend.
So again "terrible logic" or to put it less colorfully.. you're wrong.
How is he wrong? We all know cheese takes less skill then to defend but those that are better then their opponents will defend it. It really comes down to how well you understand the game because it will tax you on so many levels, from unit control, to a starved economy, to making the best possible decision when adversity is the greatest.
Why is macro held in such high regards? I understand why people favor it so much and disregard cheese as being legit or enough to discredit a win.
On February 27 2012 15:47 thepuppyassassin wrote: O yea. Good on Naniwa for stomping on Nestea and showing once and for all that he's better atm.
I don't really think you can draw that conclusion from the games. It was an exciting series and both players played well, with Naniwa showing great micro and game sense in knowing how to engage with his army, but then again so did Nestea. That series was resolved by mindgames more than anything else, similar to his series with leenock.
On February 27 2012 15:47 thepuppyassassin wrote: O yea. Good on Naniwa for stomping on Nestea and showing once and for all that he's better atm.
I don't really think you can draw that conclusion from the games. It was an exciting series and both players played well, with Naniwa showing great micro and game sense in knowing how to engage with his army, but then again so did Nestea. That series was resolved by mindgames more than anything else, similar to his series with leenock.
Well that's 2 legit series he has over Nestea now, if I'm not mistaken... Which helps quell a lot of doubts as to Naniwa's level of skill relative to that of Nestea.
Reminds me of MMA/ MVP actually.
How many series does Nani have to take to show that the professor is nothing more than a glorified grad student?
On February 27 2012 11:19 TeeTS wrote: It's really amazing how much people are posting here with no idea about how SC2 works.
1st: 12/14 rax vs Zerg: This is very economical opening, cause it forces the zerg to a lot of zerglings and at least one spine early on. therefore terran sacrifices some eco of his own, but it is worth it, if you have a good marine/scv control (and MKP has definately the best in the world, so this is a good opening for him per definiton!), you can expand easily behind that, since you still have a very good income due to constant scv production.
2nd: the fast 3rd in game 6: Did you ever think about what would've happened if DRG scouted the 3rd and made f.e. a roach attack on it early on? MKP did not slide a single scv to this base until he secured the entrance with a lot of siege tanks and marines. the timing of this base was so fast, that it would've been finished, when the roaches arrive there. And then he simply flies back to his natural or main and is fine, cause zerg sacrificed a lot of eco for an attack which didn't do anything because MKP was well defended with a bunker and already a tank out and siege mode nearly done.
MKP didn't play his absolute best, but was near to it, due to nerves as he mentioned. You should not forget that he had the Shakuras game in the bag, if he didn't make that huge blunder, overcomitting into DRG's natural, which made absolutely no sense and was a big sign, that he was nervous and wanted the game to end right there. To come back from such a disappointing lose shows a strong spirit and high skill. He mixed up very agressive styles, several builds and good economic openers. he controlled the final battle very well. DRG took a huge risk, teching this fast to hive and got punished for that.
Overall it was a good tournament, a good production, BUT yes: Where was the fucking winners ceremony. It would've been nice to see the Top 8 alltogether again. I think we have a great Top8 with nice players, that can be happy about really good performances, like violet or Huk (who made his personal little comeback, after doing not so well lately).
And yes. I didn't like Tastosis trashing on MKP even when he won. But they just don't like him, it's allways the same, if you watch the gsl, you know that. They never say a positive word about him, that really fits, only such general phrases like "he is solid, blabla", but are so critical about him (like this 500gas issue: HE wanted to go for dual upgrades, a siege tank and siegemode: these are 425 gas in total!!! And you complain about him having 500 gas? STUPID?). This is the only point I hate about Tastosis. These two are so biased. When Nestea or MVP play, everything they do is gloryfied to be genius, even it's totally common or simple. But MKP, he must've messed up with them. I actual don't know why, maybe they think his playstyle is gimmicky, or they blame him for his stupid decision making, which he showed for a period of time, or they just don't like his character. I DON'T KNOW, BUT PLEASE, don't let this affect your casting this much.
And finally, the best player in the world discussion: Can any1 say, that there is acutally a best player in the world right now? This is just not possible, because these very top guys are playing so much games between them in a short period of time, and taking games off each other day by day. Even naming a top10 could be hard right now, because there are so many good players out there. I think the top16 of the current GSL season makes a good top16 of the world with very little exceptions. But anything behind this, like a top 5 or so in any form, will be so questionable, that it doesn't make sense to discuss about it.
YES YES YES. Thanks for wording nicely the thoughts that my 3rd-language English cant express. The "500 gas" bit by Artosis was completely wrong. The whole game was poorly read, from that opening to the end, where both players knew full well it was over but the casters had no idea what was going on. I dont even blame Tasteless anymore at this point, he seems to follow anything Artosis starts, players bias included.
Quoted for truth. Tastosis bias is starting to get freaking annoying. but they dont care and they wont read this so it doesnt matter. and this goes for MMA too
MMA wins blizzard cup: "DRG should have won 6-7 of those games" MMA wins GSL: MVP was tired MMA rolls through ro 32 and 16: eh Alive beats MMA while MMA is sick: BEST PLAYER OMG SO HOT BEST TVT OGMGMGMGMGM
fuck im so pisssed off about that whatever, #rage
Yeah, only giving credit MMA has a lot of heart... Pissed me off as well, since he's saying it everywhere, on SoTG, on GSL, on his stream~~ Even when MMA beat Oz. I really like Artosis, but I can't stand his biased opinions.
He just hates MMA's style. He is all about passive macro play (MECH!) and suffocating your opponent (Artosis never attacks if you watch him play on his stream) and MMA can basically beat everyone by taxing their multitasking once he gets ahead (which is why he cheeses or plays super greedy like every game). Artosis I believe thinks that if players in SC2 were any good as the ones in Brood War that style would never win but because most players in SC2 suck MMA and MKP can just destroy people with their Micro and Multitasking.
Now he has called MMA, Boxer with Mechanics (huge compliment) and compared him to Jaedong multiple times and when asked about if Brood War players switched over who would still remain and he included MMA with MVP, Nestea, MC, Dongraegu. He knows MMA and MKP are really good. He just doesn't think they play the game optimally. Until the players catch up to their skill level what they are doing will still work and I'm sure they will adapt since both are great players.
I don't know how spot on you are with your assessment, but when you are a caster (or rather part of THE casters), it's very unprofessional to half-heartedly congratulate the winner.
Moreover, that is a very stupid belief. Micro and multitasking has won many games in BW. For example Bisu vs Savior was pretty much the epitome of Bisu's multitasking and incisiveness that flattened the king of management-style zerg Savior.
I don't even think Jaedong can be compared to MMA though...JD is just very deadly and rather aggressive. I think his magic lies in the ability to make engagements go in his favour, and of course his once impeccable muta micro.
Generally though I prefer to lay off the direct comparisons. But having multitasking is very essential to both games. Going into long macro games, not so much, even in BW. I think TBLS have been unusually aggressive this year, especially Flash. The only true "macro or die" player is Best, and he still gets owned by a bunker rush.
So stop putting a player down in either game if he doesn't go into those long macro games, especially if he still wins.
On February 27 2012 15:47 thepuppyassassin wrote: O yea. Good on Naniwa for stomping on Nestea and showing once and for all that he's better atm.
I don't really think you can draw that conclusion from the games. It was an exciting series and both players played well, with Naniwa showing great micro and game sense in knowing how to engage with his army, but then again so did Nestea. That series was resolved by mindgames more than anything else, similar to his series with leenock.
Well that's 2 legit series he has over Nestea now, if I'm not mistaken... Which helps quell a lot of doubts as to Naniwa's level of skill relative to that of Nestea.
Reminds me of MMA/ MVP actually.
How many series does Nani have to take to show that the professor is nothing more than a glorified grad student?
The first series was a lot more convincing than the second one, in my opinion. The kind of mindgames that went on increases the variance, because of the increased amount of hard counters and lack of standard games. As to your question, it definitely takes more than two. Same with MVP/MMA. People like to extrapolate from small sample sizes to make it more interesting and have some drama to talk about/people like storylines, but it simply isn't meaningful. Anyone who followed BW should know that 2 bo3 series means very little when it comes to comparing the skill level of top level players.
Even if a player has a winning record against another player, that doesn't make him better overall. True, nani had the better showing this time round, and he wins more often against nestea than he loses...but when we talk about overall dominance, we have to accept that nestea is the second most dominant player in sc2's young history.
That doesn't mean that zergbong is any good, however. =o
both players played reallly well the whole tournament, and id lie if i said i wasnt a DRG fan now, but i was really expecting him to win. MKP must have played like a boss to take him out
On February 27 2012 13:01 Hakkesshu wrote: To be honest, it was also anticlimatic because Tastosis made it that way. Artosis was talking shit about MKP on his gas and all of a sudden MKP won... that's why everyone was surprised because the caster did a poor job at describing the actual game. Not only that but it seemed that both Artosis/Tasteless were pissed when MKP won... instead of congratulating him, they said nothing. It's like MKP had won but they don't want to give him the prize... WTF.
If it was Rob/JP/Wheat/Doa/Wolf/Khaldor casting, it would have been a lot different since they love MKP.
I don't hate Tastosis but their bias against MKP is so freaking annoying ever since the beginning. And this is more obvious from them, when MKP finally broke the curse.
I know exactly what you mean. I can't comment on the atmosphere of the final and the ceremony (or lack thereof) because due to dodgy filtering at work I missed the very end.
Its pretty clear that Artosis has never caught on to all of the love the MKP gets for his stylized play style, his sick micro and him just being adorable. Artosis has always loved the players who have a real understanding of the game. Players like Nestea, MVP, MMA, DRG etc.
Its quite noticeable in GSL, whenever MKP comes around, they usually have the same copy paste stuff... "He's really solid", "creative builds" bla bla bla. He pretty much crushed through It doesn't usually bother me. Good example would be Ro32 this GSL. He absolutely crushed his way through aLive and Happy easily with really solid play, and he didn't even really get a mention from them.
It usually doesn't bother me, but to hear how they acted during and after the final is fairly disappointing.
I think they were disappointed in the -bunker rush, bunker rush, bunker rush, c-c-c-combo breaker early 3rd...
seems like every fighting game spammer I've played online low, low, low, low, mid
MKP did not win a macro game convincingly in this finals...in contrast to MMA at blizzcup.
I can understand that. To be honest, regardless of whether MKP is good enough to beat DRG in a full on macro game, I don't believe that MKP really thought he could. He played macro games against DRG in Code S recently and he was taken apart comprehensively.
Tbh though, and this is all personal preference of course, but I still prefer to see Marine/Tank/Medivac > Mech in TvZ so I wasn't really disappointed how the games went. When you're an emotionally invested in a player as I am in MKP, then its quite easy to look solely towards the result rather than the quality of games.
I <3 both of you so much right now. And no worries neoghaleon, as much as this was MKP's moment when all of us MKP fans can take a sigh of relief, I'm positive that DRG's moment is just around the corner. Gonna be a fun GSL match for sure though.
On February 27 2012 17:32 Skillver wrote: I am somehow a bit dissappointed the direction the game is going. I haven't seen an astonishing game for some time now.
It's really time for the addon to pop out.
Not sure what you think consider to be astonishing, but there have been many great games in Code S this season, and the Asus ROG finals were pretty amazing. Although if you don't consider blizzcup or Leenock/Jjakji 'astonishing' then you might have very different standards than most.
Congrats to MKP, so happy he finally got a major win!
I'm surprised no one has asked this yet but. Now that MKP won a major tournament, the first major tournament for Prime in a long time, will he inherit the ID Optimus.Prime?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/oe0jq.jpg)
