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On February 08 2012 03:23 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote:
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers. Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it: What the fuck? I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
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On February 08 2012 03:26 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote:
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers. Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it: What the fuck? I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports. If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
Care to explain? Provide an argument perhaps?
Rivalries are good for hype, and hype is good for the industry. That's all I'm saying.
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On February 08 2012 03:26 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote:
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers. Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it: What the fuck? I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports. If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
My thoughts exactly. Can't be bothered to answer though. Especially since his answer was totally off the point I developped in my post, which had little to nothing to do with perception or image, but business model.
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On February 07 2012 20:06 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man... (Screen fades to black) (Angelic choir music starts playing) NARRATOR: HuK! (80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder) NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless. (Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones) NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid. STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake! (Close zoom on HuKs face) HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home. NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
This from the Liquid Team News:
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
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On February 08 2012 03:23 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote:
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers. Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it: What the fuck? I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
Like I said in my previous post. I think Good, well-intended rivalry is good for Esports. A real bitter rivalry with a penchant for self-destruction in not.
I think what we are seeing here is more a bad rivalry than a good one. But who am I to know? I really hope I'm wrong.
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On February 08 2012 03:45 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote:
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers. Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it: What the fuck? I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports. Like I said in my previous post. I think Good, well-intended rivalry is good for Esports. A real bitter rivalry with a penchant for self-destruction in not. I think what we are seeing here is more a bad rivalry than a good one. But who am I to know? I really hope I'm wrong.
First of all thanks for answering in a civilized manner with an actual point. I'm pretty disappointed in Hydroxyl for continuing the trend of "I disagree, but I won't tell you why". Maybe his detailed post was just a fluke.
Anyways I agree, it all depends on if the rivalry is damaging or not. I mean, IdrA and HuK's rivalry was not "well intentioned", so I disagree that that is the operative term, but it was one of the most exciting things in the e-sports scene. Hell, I'd go on to say that "rivalry" is good, but a genuine feud is what we're all afraid of. Personally, I don't see that happening with most of these teams... MAYBE TSL, but honestly I can't claim to actually know hardly anything about Coach Lee's practices, but my hypothesis based on observation would say that he's kind of a guy to watch out for in e-sports.
Now, on to Hydroxyl because apparently I need to spell this out more clearly. That's understandable so I shall comply.
The part where I really start to disagree is here:
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
Now, I may be misunderstanding you because you have two massive run on sentences. But if I break it down, you first say it's good Exposure to EG, which is true. However, you completely neglect to mention that it is also good exposure for JYP. It's huge for that guy! This is the moment his fame really starts to take off! Not only that, but if more people see Koreans and Foreigners playing together this notion that this fucking e-sports apartheid should exist will slowly fade.
You claim to be discussing their business model which seems perfectly fine to me: Buy good players, make money. That's going to work out for them. Where are all these pros that are criticizing EG's business model? If I am understanding you correctly it's their business ethics that you disagree with, and again, I believe that their business ethics create rivalry which is good for the scene.
Not only that, but (again, if I'm reading your poorly articulated words correctly), you uphold Stephano and Millenium as an example of a GOOD business model? There is pretty much NO difference between the Millenium-Sephano-Complexity drama and the EG-Puma-TSL drama. Or are you saying that EG's business model is poor because they invest less in player development than other teams? If so, what you're saying is that if a player underpreforms they should still get paid? How is that a good business model? Again, it's about ethics, and my post was about ethics. EG doesn't just develop skill, (which they do, hence the team house, and now moving in with slayers), they develop each player's media image, and I think that helps the scene just as much as player development. They've got their "good guy" (incontrol), their "e-sports bad boy" IdrA, and (once again) the rivalries that they allow their players to have which we (the spectators) can all get excited about.
Make sense?
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On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 20:06 VoirDire wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man... (Screen fades to black) (Angelic choir music starts playing) NARRATOR: HuK! (80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder) NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless. (Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones) NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid. STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake! (Close zoom on HuKs face) HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home. NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13. Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed. Both these quotes are correct. TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it. There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing. This from the Liquid Team News: Show nested quote +Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated. This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited. All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
Dude, that scares the shit out of you? Maybe it's time to worry about more important things. That's the business of any sport.
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On February 08 2012 03:44 Gator wrote:
liquid rules EG drools
STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES
but only IdrA losses truly hurt me 
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In that picture of Zenio, did he have sun glasses on his head or what is that shiny, reflective thing?
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On February 08 2012 05:55 Chriscras wrote:STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES but only IdrA losses truly hurt me
Haha, well played
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Thanks so much! Excellent quality, excellent casting. Gretorp+Grubby was sublime.
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One EG stomp a day, keep the doctor away.
Thanks Liquid for my doctors bills.
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On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote:TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it. There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing. This from the Liquid Team News: Show nested quote +Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated. This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited. All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
Hmm, it seems like English is your second language, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that
1) The stuff you quoted it really playful in tone. There's no reason to believe that the rivalry is really "bitter". Although even if it were,
2) There's no way the rivalry's a bad thing.
I'm not sure what you're so afraid of...? Do you dislike conflict, or...?
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On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 20:06 VoirDire wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man... (Screen fades to black) (Angelic choir music starts playing) NARRATOR: HuK! (80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder) NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless. (Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones) NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid. STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake! (Close zoom on HuKs face) HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home. NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13. Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed. Both these quotes are correct. TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it. There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing. This from the Liquid Team News: Show nested quote +Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated. This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited. All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
lol how old are you, do you really not see that this is just the typical way to hype an article up? Do you really think that TL thinks of themselves as defender of all things good and bright in the world? LOL
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On February 08 2012 07:49 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote:On February 07 2012 20:06 VoirDire wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man... (Screen fades to black) (Angelic choir music starts playing) NARRATOR: HuK! (80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder) NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless. (Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones) NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid. STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake! (Close zoom on HuKs face) HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home. NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13. On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^ That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way. They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though. yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'. That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything. need money first... =| How do you think we got Huk the first time around...? Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image... Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home. If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed. Both these quotes are correct. TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it. There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing. This from the Liquid Team News: Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated. This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited. All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me. lol how old are you, do you really not see that this is just the typical way to hype an article up? Do you really think that TL thinks of themselves as defender of all things good and bright in the world? LOL
First, age is no indication of intelligence (hence you wrote this) or reason.
You can hype, ok, I understand that. I don't think TL holds thenselves as defenders of all things good, I never said that, you should study reading comprehension a little. But I do think it is possible for then to hold a grudge against another team. And it is possible for then to use their influence to damage said team.
That is what I said I was afraid of, never said they held themselves to higher moral standards (even Jinro said so).
On February 08 2012 07:36 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote:TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it. There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing. This from the Liquid Team News: Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated. This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited. All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me. Hmm, it seems like English is your second language, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that 1) The stuff you quoted it really playful in tone. There's no reason to believe that the rivalry is really "bitter". Although even if it were, 2) There's no way the rivalry's a bad thing. I'm not sure what you're so afraid of...? Do you dislike conflict, or...?
1) I know it could be in jest, but still, Jinro's posts here and past tensions, like lack of support of EG's events, (or more aggressively, effectively damaging EG's tournaments in this forum before: see original very old EGMCSL thread), Huk's aquisition and others can lead me to believe that there are "hurt feelings".
2) Yes there is. When there is so little good-will, audience and money in Esports everything that is taken away is missed badly. Lack of TL.net support for any event, player, tournament or team can spell doom for it, and we don't want EG's money being spent elsewhere, do we?
If they think that throwing money in SC2 is bad for their sponsors like labeling the team, as well as the sponsors as "mercenaries" for example, they will withdraw their support and the world of Esports will be that much poorer. I don't think we want that.
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I'm trying to be civil and to as clear as possible here, some people, like the one a few posts above that can't understand the figure of speech: "Scare the shit out of me" should not reply to me, as they won't get a reply back.
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8748 Posts
Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
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On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
FINALLY SOMEONE SILENCES THE STORM!!!!!!!!
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On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
I will take your word on that, Nony.
If there really is no hard feelings, I would like to ask you to share this with a lot of the fan base in TL forums, seriously. It gets out of hand worse than 4chan.
I really like you, and I want you to keep chewing Strider and being awesome.
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EPT
