- Best of 5 -- 4 BO1 1v1s -- If tied after all 4 games there is a BO3 Ace Match - Players are picked before the match is started and picked based on the given map - 7 Week Season - Top 4 are seeded into Playoffs
Go Liquid! Shall be an interesting fight with almost the complete star lineups of both teams.
One thing I always wondered: How are these matchups drawn up? Does one team start to pick an opening player, then the other team picks an opponent and also the next player for the following map? Or how does this work?
P.S.: A shame that Zenio did not get to play versus Idra, haha.
Just based on their record, I feel that PuMa will beat Ret. Zenio and JYP, I'm not so sure. I don't know much about JYP so I don't know who can really win. Based on THEIR record, (and IdrA's thoughts on ZvP in general) I think Hero will defeat IdrA. HayprO and DeMusliM is kind of a toss-up to me, I think DeMusliM is favored but after that incredible run at MLG, I'm not sure I can ever count HayprO out.
I think NASL slipped up here, they should not have scheduled arguably the highest profile matchup to conflict with the Super Bowl. Guess I'll watch it on the rebroadcast.
On February 06 2012 03:57 compucomp wrote: I think NASL slipped up here, they should not have scheduled arguably the highest profile matchup to conflict with the Super Bowl. Guess I'll watch it on the rebroadcast.
On February 06 2012 03:57 compucomp wrote: I think NASL slipped up here, they should not have scheduled arguably the highest profile matchup to conflict with the Super Bowl. Guess I'll watch it on the rebroadcast.
Every game is at 6pm PST o:
I know that, but I mean they should have moved Liquid vs. EG to another week, or another day this week, for that matter.
Holy Shit. every single one of these matches is absolutly amazing. I'm giving the slight edge to Liquid because they seemed to to well in recent teamleagues but anything can happen. Sadly NASL is always at the most messed up times you can get in Europe. Watching at 3 am is just to late especially considering that i have to leave at 6.45 am.
As much as I like IdrA, I dont think that he can win versus HerO That being said, EG has a good shot at taking this. PuMa>Ret JYP>Zenio IdrA<HerO DeMusliM>HayprO It's a shame that HuK isn't being sent out though, that would be sick
On February 06 2012 04:18 CrazyBirdman wrote: Holy Shit. every single one of these matches is absolutly amazing. I'm giving the slight edge to Liquid because they seemed to to well in recent teamleagues but anything can happen. Sadly NASL is always at the most messed up times you can get in Europe. Watching at 3 am is just to late especially considering that i have to leave at 6.45 am.
There's always an EU Rebroadcast for every stream we do at 10AM PST (6PM GMT).
On February 06 2012 04:18 CrazyBirdman wrote: Holy Shit. every single one of these matches is absolutly amazing. I'm giving the slight edge to Liquid because they seemed to to well in recent teamleagues but anything can happen. Sadly NASL is always at the most messed up times you can get in Europe. Watching at 3 am is just to late especially considering that i have to leave at 6.45 am.
There's always an EU Rebroadcast for every stream we do at 10AM PST (6PM GMT).
Of course but I am unable to NOT look at results. Not your fault I am to blame.... I will probably tune in to the rebroadcast anyways just to see Hero vs Idra.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
I could see every game going either way, as they all seem to be fairly well matched. As a Liquid fan, I will have to give the advantage to them, though I wouldn't be shocked if EG won.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
I gotta disagree, I think HayprO is way overhyped and DeMusliM is going to take it.
Demuslim lost to bling. Haypro beat Nestea and took a game off MVP.
He's still at avg 42% win rate on TLPD vs Demu's 54.5%. Luckily for Haypro ZvT is his best MU and Demu's worst(but that comes out to about even %). Dunno I think EG will win, but I hope Liquid will(tho I hope Demu wins his MU)
On February 06 2012 04:50 Seeker wrote: OH SHIET!!!! LIQUID VS EG!! THE DREAM COME TRUE!!!
bit of an overreaction
none the less Idra will beat Hero
Idra's ZvP scouting from GSL was perfect I reckon he's got the jump on hero
You forgot the part where IdrA lost his ZvP in ro48 code A and dropped to code B. I don't see this going 4-0, Hero should at least take the game against IdrA.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
I gotta disagree, I think HayprO is way overhyped and DeMusliM is going to take it.
Demuslim lost to bling. Haypro beat Nestea and took a game off MVP.
Ummm Bling is good and the series was 5-4 with some really close games. Haypro beat Nestea and took a game off MVP months ago.
DeMuslim and Ret practice together a lot and from what I've seen, they split their games pretty evenly. Do you think Haypro is better than Ret?
Again, ret never beat nestea or took a game off MVP Though I do wish it was sheth in his place.
Haha so Haypro beats MVP in one game and he's suddenly better than Ret, a zerg who has beaten Kas, Thorzain, Naama, Cloud, Goody and SeleCT consistently?
HerO should beat IdrA, just based on their previous matches and that IdrA has terrible mind game issues against Protoss
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
exactly
he has no achievements whatsoever in the last 10 months - none at all
i really think that he is the most overrated player in sc2 right now but he should still be able to beat haypro
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
MLG Raleigh, NASL Season 2 Group Stage
During this time he was also the best player on ladder on 2 servers, by a huge margin. While he may not be in top shape now, at one point last year DeMuslim essentially stopped loosing to foreigners, he was in sick good form. Whether he can recreate that is debatable, but he certainly is capable. Tyler recently pointed to him as one of the best players when in shape outside of Korea, in the MLG Qualifier bracket preview with JP.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
MLG Raleigh, NASL Season 2 Group Stage
During this time he was also the best player on ladder on 2 servers, by a huge margin. While he may not be in top shape now, at one point last year DeMuslim essentially stopped loosing to foreigners, he was in sick good form. Whether he can recreate that is debatable, but he certainly is capable. Tyler recently pointed to him as one of the best players when in shape outside of Korea, in the MLG Qualifier bracket preview with JP.
Oh thats right he was #1 EU and NA and he ended up with some sick streaming sessions I learned so much
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
exactly
he has no achievements whatsoever in the last 10 months - none at all
i really think that he is the most overrated player in sc2 right now but he should still be able to beat haypro
When he actually practices, he is actually pretty ridiculously good. He was the best on EU and NA server for a LONG time and smashed everybody he played during that time period outside of Koreans.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
MLG Raleigh, NASL Season 2 Group Stage
14th place Raleigh
When will people stop thinking tournament wins only determines whether a player is good or not? DeMuslim had a sick run at Raleigh. Came back to win an extended series vs KawaiiRice, beat TLO, Ret, Trickster and had a close 2-1 series with Nada. Nada then beat Select and Huk easily 2-0.
Considering the guy was out of commission for months due to injury and then right when he got going again, he had Visa troubles, he has been doing pretty damn well.
On February 06 2012 05:05 Gator wrote: Ret < Puma Zenio > JYP Hero > Idra Haypro < Demuslim Ace : Sheth > Demuslim
should be fun :D
Why would the Ace match be Sheth and Demuslim? I think TL would send out Hero, Zenio and Ret before Sheth and EG would send Puma, JYP, Idra or Huk before DeMuslim.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
MLG Raleigh, NASL Season 2 Group Stage
14th place Raleigh
When will people stop thinking tournament wins only determines whether a player is good or not? DeMuslim had a sick run at Raleigh. Came back to win an extended series vs KawaiiRice, beat TLO, Ret, Trickster and had a close 2-1 series with Nada. Nada then beat Select and Huk easily 2-0.
Myeah, then again Haypro had Select, Kiwi, Nestea and then mvp lucked out.
On February 06 2012 05:05 Gator wrote: Ret < Puma Zenio > JYP Hero > Idra Haypro < Demuslim Ace : Sheth > Demuslim
should be fun :D
Why would the Ace match be Sheth and Demuslim? I think TL would send out Hero, Zenio and Ret before Sheth and EG would send Puma, JYP, Idra or Huk before DeMuslim.
1. sheth is a boss so that's that 2. was watching some charity thing last night and sheth had to leave in middle to go play a clan war sooooo maybe it was for this
On February 06 2012 05:05 Gator wrote: Ret < Puma Zenio > JYP Hero > Idra Haypro < Demuslim Ace : Sheth > Demuslim
should be fun :D
Why would the Ace match be Sheth and Demuslim? I think TL would send out Hero, Zenio and Ret before Sheth and EG would send Puma, JYP, Idra or Huk before DeMuslim.
1. sheth is a boss so that's that 2. was watching some charity thing last night and sheth had to leave in middle to go play a clan war sooooo maybe it was for this
yeah sure. 100% that they will send sheth before hero, zenio and ret.
On February 06 2012 04:24 dragonborn wrote: i think HayprO can beat DeMusliM.
DeMusliM is extremely overhyped.
He actually isn't though. The EG house did wonders for him and prior to him having to return to England he was smashing competition left right and centre perhaps not top european style but he was definitly on the brink of hitting it.
I'm not sure since he's returned but he isn't what he was
Can you elaborate which competition he smashed left and right? Zotac Cups? lol
MLG Raleigh, NASL Season 2 Group Stage
14th place Raleigh
When will people stop thinking tournament wins only determines whether a player is good or not? DeMuslim had a sick run at Raleigh. Came back to win an extended series vs KawaiiRice, beat TLO, Ret, Trickster and had a close 2-1 series with Nada. Nada then beat Select and Huk easily 2-0.
Myeah, then again Haypro had Select, Kiwi, Nestea and then mvp lucked out.
so now we came to what conclusion?
that both of them are extremely overhyped and demu should win nonetheless? i guess thats a pretty good result of the dicussion
On February 06 2012 03:53 Gamegene wrote: Wow, Liquid chose REALLY fucking well.
All of their players are playing their BEST match ups. WP by Nazgul/Bumblebee.
mmmm who to trust???
Puma: Has beaten Ret multiple times before, is really good against a very drone heavy Zerg like Ret. JYP: Is just amazing against Zerg, even during periods where Protoss in Korea were having huge troubles vZ. Idra: Is gonna lose vs Hero, thats all I got DeMuslim: Has said on stream that he feels most confident against Z, and is getting great practice vs Ret on NA server in EG practice sessions.
But I'm an EG fanboy, so take all that with a grain of salt.
I don't think the matchups are perfect for TL at all. Maybe statistically if you look at vs. race percentages, but ideally we would have Ret vs Demu for example.
We really need a Terran. I didn't care much about racial balance on the team before since there weren't as many team leagues and they weren't a big deal (though I guess they still kind of aren't), but now I really feel the lack of P/T depth. Could have easily disposed of JYP if we had a Terran (one that doesn't hate TvP ).
I do kinda like Zenio's chances though. He's a very cutthroat player (no pun intended), he won't hesitate to do a Nydus or some shit like that on close by air Shattered or do a random allin vs FFE.
Just because EG's members might have better results does not mean they are the better team so stop thinking about that to yourself. Anything can happen in a bo1 and Liquid should be able to take it they have the better matchups.
On February 06 2012 05:46 Zzoram wrote: Idra can't beat Korean Protoss so it'll go to at least game 4, since I think Puma will beat Ret.
I really disagree, Idra beat puzzle easily earlier, I don't think it's matter of him not beating korean P, he just lost in GSL, and it's probibly his worst matchup.
On February 06 2012 05:46 Zzoram wrote: Idra can't beat Korean Protoss so it'll go to at least game 4, since I think Puma will beat Ret.
I really disagree, Idra beat puzzle easily earlier, I don't think it's matter of him not beating korean P, he just lost in GSL, and it's probibly his worst matchup.
He always lost against HerO though, whether its on ladder or at tournaments
Team Liquid really needs another Terran. Love Jinro, but he doesn't cut it anymore, and TL is way too Zerg heavy for this kind of a team league -.-
Well, I think that either liquid will take it 3-1 or ace will decide, all up to ret and puma + haypro and demuslim, I think the most even MUs in the series. I'm preety confident the koreans in liquid can clean up JYP and IdrA. IdrA did not seem to react well at all to allins in ZvP and looked horrible in Code A and HerO is known for his PvZ. Zenio has had really good ZvP recently and JYP lost his Code S group super bad so I think that Zenio has it preety ok. Other than that: Ret ? PuMa Zenio > JYP HerO > IdrA Haypro ? Demuslim
On February 06 2012 03:44 MCDayC wrote: EG got favourable matches, they should be able to take this 3-1 (Idra will probably lose vs Hero)
On February 06 2012 03:53 Gamegene wrote: Wow, Liquid chose REALLY fucking well.
All of their players are playing their BEST match ups. WP by Nazgul/Bumblebee.
mmmm who to trust???
Well considering Zenio's worst MU statisically is ZvP, and he got a ZvP...gamegene doesn't know what he's talking about
Well, both Liquid and EG should be happy with what they got. For Liquid, Zenio vs JYP is a bit unlucky, and EG would rather have IdrA play someone else than HerO, so it's a tie in my eyes.
On February 06 2012 03:44 MCDayC wrote: EG got favourable matches, they should be able to take this 3-1 (Idra will probably lose vs Hero)
On February 06 2012 03:53 Gamegene wrote: Wow, Liquid chose REALLY fucking well.
All of their players are playing their BEST match ups. WP by Nazgul/Bumblebee.
mmmm who to trust???
Well considering Zenio's worst MU statisically is ZvP, and he got a ZvP...gamegene doesn't know what he's talking about
Well, both Liquid and EG should be happy with what they got. For Liquid, Zenio vs JYP is a bit unlucky, and EG would rather have IdrA play someone else than HerO, so it's a tie in my eyes.
and then you are not taking into consideration of the other two MU's
ret versus puma (puma favored)
demuslim versus haypro (demuslim favored)
but ofc upsets can happen and I'm rooting for liquid :D
On February 06 2012 06:27 QNdie wrote: Well, I think that either liquid will take it 3-1 or ace will decide, all up to ret and puma + haypro and demuslim, I think the most even MUs in the series. I'm preety confident the koreans in liquid can clean up JYP and IdrA. IdrA did not seem to react well at all to allins in ZvP and looked horrible in Code A and HerO is known for his PvZ. Zenio has had really good ZvP recently and JYP lost his Code S group super bad so I think that Zenio has it preety ok. Other than that: Ret ? PuMa Zenio > JYP HerO > IdrA Haypro ? Demuslim
its funny how liquid bias you are :D but this is team liquid.net so i understand. Personally i think puma will beat ret, JYP will beat zenio, hero will beat idra but not because idra looked horrible in code a just that hero is friggin amazing, and the decider will be haypro vs demuslim, I'm giving the edge to demuslim just because ghosts are OP i haven't seen like any haypro play lately but i do know he is pretty good
The last time Haypro/Demu met in a clan war, it was a game on Tal'darim and Demu pretty much beat him with 3 Reapers only. They're both overhyped, but putting Haypro as the favourite because he took one game off MVP in over a year's worth of results is crazy.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Haypro pulled it out, Demuslim is the most inconsistent/flaky pro I've ever supported I think.
On February 06 2012 06:27 QNdie wrote: Well, I think that either liquid will take it 3-1 or ace will decide, all up to ret and puma + haypro and demuslim, I think the most even MUs in the series. I'm preety confident the koreans in liquid can clean up JYP and IdrA. IdrA did not seem to react well at all to allins in ZvP and looked horrible in Code A and HerO is known for his PvZ. Zenio has had really good ZvP recently and JYP lost his Code S group super bad so I think that Zenio has it preety ok. Other than that: Ret ? PuMa Zenio > JYP HerO > IdrA Haypro ? Demuslim
its funny how liquid bias you are :D but this is team liquid.net so i understand. Personally i think puma will beat ret, JYP will beat zenio, hero will beat idra but not because idra looked horrible in code a just that hero is friggin amazing, and the decider will be haypro vs demuslim, I'm giving the edge to demuslim just because ghosts are OP i haven't seen like any haypro play lately but i do know he is pretty good
i tend to agree, because JYP is an extremly good PvZer aswell, but Ret can, on his good days, take down anyone. But you also have to consider that PuMa can take down anyone aswell. Like for example at DH with DRG. 2-2 or 3-1 for EG I think. But I hope Liquid wins
I do not know who to cheer for. I think EG is favored based on matchups, but it can go either way. Zenio can upset JYP, Idra can upset Hero. Ret-Puma and Demu-Haypro can also end up being close. I wonder who the aces would be.
(Puma>Ret) Puma is a very strong aggressive terran, and that will work wonders against the drone heavy style of Ret.
(JYP>Zenio) Zeno has really poor ZvP especially against Korean Protoss. Unless he pulls out some cheese, JYP should take this easily considering his amazing PvZ.
(Hero>Idra) I can only hope Greg proves me wrong but with his view on protoss and the excellent PvZ Hero has displayed against foreigners, Hero should take this one.
(Demuslim>Haypro) Even with Haypro's strong play at Providence, he has shown none of that strength as of late. It could be close, but either way I still feel Demuslim will emerge the victor.
seems odd that sheth isn't coming out he played really well vs colMVP(more like col) in the ipltac. TBH I only see TL winning if Zenio has a amazing game on Shattered temple but that map is just painful for zerg so I don't see him winning that. If he loses it comes down to Haypro.
On February 06 2012 08:02 GreyKnight wrote: i feel like liquid won for some reason
Solid reasoning.
I just want good games but i don't see TL winning this :\ please oh please prove me wrong!
last few times I remember tl staffers posting a lot they won =p
but EG put up an article too so I don't feel swayed either way.
Feels like Hero beating Idra is probably going to be crucial to TL's success since I don't think they are favoured in the first two series (though both can definitely win their games) and the last match is a bit of a toss up.
Using the calendar as evidence, this match is only gonna last 1 hour. NASL shouldnt put the time of their showmatch on the calendar. It clearly shows how long the NASTL will last for. What a joke.
On February 06 2012 09:29 kcaz wrote: Using the calendar as evidence, this match is only gonna last 1 hour. NASL shouldnt put the time of their showmatch on the calendar. It clearly shows how long the NASTL will last for. What a joke.
Isn't it like this every time, and the showmatch just starts after the team league finishes...?
On February 06 2012 09:29 kcaz wrote: Using the calendar as evidence, this match is only gonna last 1 hour. NASL shouldnt put the time of their showmatch on the calendar. It clearly shows how long the NASTL will last for. What a joke.
Isn't it like this every time, and the showmatch just starts after the team league finishes...?
Yeah but iirc the showmatch starts at the time on the calendar. If I'm wrong I'll gladly put my foot in my mouth.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) (or if Ret is living in NA, coin flip first map, loser picks) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either NA or KR (coin flip first map, loser picks after).
So out of those 4 matches, none of them would be best played on EU. Yeah, that would be pretty bad if it was all on EU.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
ret is living in NA isnt he?
also HayprO in Korea.coinflip? not really.
ret's living in NA? that's news to me :o.
Yes I believe he's currently living in ohio with his gf, and YAYAYYAYAY (Take grubby interview) grubby's casting
On February 06 2012 10:19 Tachion wrote: Do they let the Koreans play against each other on the Korean server or does it have to be on NA?
it's on europe afaik
I hope not. There are only 2 players out of those 8 that is in Europe right now (Ret and Haypro).
That means 6 players will have to deal with extra lag because NASL was unwilling to switch servers.
Ret vs Puma should be on the NA server (EU vs KR compromise) Zenio vs JYP should be on the KR server (both are KR). Hero vs Idra should be on the KR server (both are KR atm). Haypro vs Demulism could be on either - start with a coin flip for the server and then let the loser pick.
ret is living in NA isnt he?
also HayprO in Korea.coinflip? not really.
ret's living in NA? that's news to me :o.
Yes I believe he's currently living in ohio with his gf, and YAYAYYAYAY (Take grubby interview) grubby's casting
how can they NOT notice the dark shrine being built and then canceled when zenio scouted it, that resulted in the fast 3rd. Basicly his all in was scouted and he tried to go into a macro game. Why don't they look at the production tab...
Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
Eh, EG once again disappointing me in the team leagues. Not sure if they don't take it as serious as individual leagues, or they just always happen to play terribly as a team. Who knows. =/
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
Yeah a 3-base attack is soooo cheesy
People will twist what actually happened into whatever suits their own personal bias.
On February 06 2012 11:39 eXist - Canuck wrote: Zenio was on 4 base when he attacked if thats considered cheesing then I guess anything done in the game can now be considered cheesing.
Pretty sure 3 base but yeah wasn't cheese lol. Only cheese game or all in game was puma vs ret so far :p
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
Yeah a 3-base attack is soooo cheesy
People will twist what actually happened into whatever suits their own personal bias.
I have no idea how anyone could ever twist that into a cheese -____- ''
Holy shit NASL? Bringing on Grubby was the best thing you've ever done, this is some high level analysis, Grubby is so indepth with the protoss stuff and it's so interesting to hear both him and Gretorp.
Gotta admit this is one of the first times i've been happy to watch a NASL and felt it's done really well, good job.
On February 06 2012 11:34 Cocoba wrote: Lol. In the pregame, they were saying how EG is the cheesy players and Liquid were the macroers. Funny that Liquid has cheesed both games now. Game 3 is gonna be the final game of the series considering its PvZ with HerO vs IdrA.
Yeah a 3-base attack is soooo cheesy
People will twist what actually happened into whatever suits their own personal bias.
I have no idea how anyone could ever twist that into a cheese -____- ''
On February 06 2012 11:48 sitromit wrote: How did Idra lose this???
roach/ling is really really hard to beat +2 blink stalker all in. This is a very tough all in and I have found the only way to beat it other then going faster infestors is roach/hydra otherwise it beats roach/ling very effectively.
On February 06 2012 11:47 Badfatpanda wrote: wow that blink micro is intense, but I don't see HerO winning at this point, IdrA is showing good play, I'm glad
Idra always manages to lose vs Protoss, those engagements were awful, feeding several roaches to Hero
IdrA got to eager to kill of HerO stalkers fast with low amount of roaches which got owned by when next warpin appeared. If IdrA wouldn't chase I think he would have time to mass up some more roaches.
On February 06 2012 11:49 Rampager wrote: IdrA needs to stop complaining.
There were atleast 7-8 stalkers about 1-2 roach shots from being killed. He just a-moved his roaches and didn't do anything. Sigh.
no gg = complaining?
I mean his recent interviews where he says ZvP is impossible to win. You can see it in his play, he barely tries, either that or he doesn't play with healthbars on.
On February 06 2012 11:48 sitromit wrote: How did Idra lose this???
roach/ling is really really hard to beat +2 blink stalker all in. This is a very tough all in and I have found the only way to beat it other then going faster infestors is roach/hydra otherwise it beats roach/ling very effectively.
Yes, but it looked to me like Hero didn't play particularly well. By the time the allin came Idra was ready, he should have been able to hold.
You need to crush the first attack of blink stalkers, otherwise the numbers get out of hand, and with a 20 drone lead, he probably could've done with 10 less drones and 20 more lings in the first wave...
If Idra had smashed the pylon he would have been in a fantastic position, instead he tries to kill stalkers while Hero is warping 6 more on top of his roaches...
I don't understand why Zergs engage in fights they absolutely cannot win and then stream in more units and just give them all away. See it every other zvp.
On February 06 2012 11:52 Kennigit wrote: There are a lot of people in this thread who need to apologize for playing that race not believing in 2012 Year of Liquid
Two all-ins and a short macro game. Disappointing to say the least. I really feel EG never brings their A-games to team leagues, and it saddens me to see a top team like them do so.
But, credit is due where credit is earned. Congrats to Liquid, didn't expect a 3-0, but in all honesty I should have known better with EG's reputation in team leagues.
I've listened to Gretorp talk about the new NASL format like 30 times, but I still have no idea how it will actually work . Is there anything written about that? NASL site led me to nothing ><
Also even Liquipedia doesn't know the payout structure of the NASTL? Is this information available anywhere?
On February 06 2012 11:52 Kennigit wrote: There are a lot of people in this thread who need to apologize for playing that race not believing in 2012 Year of Liquid
On February 06 2012 11:52 Kennigit wrote: There are a lot of people in this thread who need to apologize for playing that race not believing in 2012 Year of Liquid
EG so good, yet so so bad :/ They poach all the talent but have no cohesiveness or camaraderie as a team. It's pretty much the opposite approach to team building that Liquid takes.
On February 06 2012 11:53 Gentso wrote: I don't understand why Zergs engage in fights they absolutely cannot win and then stream in more units and just give them all away. See it every other zvp.
Because, those are fights they should have won? Idra had quite a huge supply lead for a very long time. Stalkers efficiency can be improved if players can micro well. The zerg player can only throw waves and waves of the unit at their opponent.
idra lost because he lost way too many zerglings(thats his great weakness - he treats them like expendable tools) without any zerglings to deal additional dps to those stalkers and potentially surrounding them - the roaches were no match for the stalkers and rightfully so.
On February 06 2012 11:56 songohan wrote: idra lost because he lost way too many zerglings(thats his great weakness - he treats them like expendable tools) without any zerglings to deal additional dps to those stalkers and potentially surrounding them - the roaches were no match for the stalkers and rightfully so.
i agree with this so much. i never realized how good zerglings until like mid master
On February 06 2012 11:56 Devolved wrote: EG so good, yet so so bad :/ They poach all the talent but have no cohesiveness or camaraderie as a team. It's pretty much the opposite approach to team building that Liquid takes.
i honestly don't think that camraderie is the winning factor in team leagues tho -.- and tbh they are pretty good friends so far as incontrol/idra = old friends, jyp/puma close friends, idra/huk becoming good friends, machine is d'awwww (who dislikes machine, seriously)
Idra kept chasing those stalkers too far off creep, allowing Hero to get a huge surround. Idra lost 8-12 roaches not killing anything due to blink micro, then was unable to regroup a decent amount of roaches. He was also going pure roach in those later fights, which is easier to micro against than ling/roach.
On February 06 2012 11:56 Devolved wrote: EG so good, yet so so bad :/ They poach all the talent but have no cohesiveness or camaraderie as a team. It's pretty much the opposite approach to team building that Liquid takes.
can you actually prove how liquid approaches team building?
On February 06 2012 11:53 Gentso wrote: I don't understand why Zergs engage in fights they absolutely cannot win and then stream in more units and just give them all away. See it every other zvp.
Because, those are fights they should have won? Idra had quite a huge supply lead for a very long time. Stalkers efficiency can be improved if players can micro well. The zerg player can only throw waves and waves of the unit at their opponent.
No, he shouldn't have won any of those... it's pretty obvious just by looking at the two armies the Protoss will win the engagement. Supply irrelevant.
On February 06 2012 11:56 Devolved wrote: EG so good, yet so so bad :/ They poach all the talent but have no cohesiveness or camaraderie as a team. It's pretty much the opposite approach to team building that Liquid takes.
can you actually prove how liquid approaches team building?
I've always felt that the players on Liquid don't treat each other as teammates but more as family. One could easily see that when HuK departed to EG. There were letters from HuK to TLO Ret Hayder etc.
I dunno what's going on with EG, but it's too early to say that EG's training methodology is failing. I still think the Korea training should eventually reap benefits.
After all the same could be said with Liquid late last year, and then Liquid only had 3 players playing in Korea (with one of them slumping hard). I don't think Liquid has changed how its trained recently, though I know some Liquid players are returning to Korea.
It's interesting how IdrA is starting to slump so suddenly when he had a near dominating performance leading up to Nov 2011. Maybe that means the other "titan" Jinro will come out his slump?
On February 06 2012 11:56 Devolved wrote: EG so good, yet so so bad :/ They poach all the talent but have no cohesiveness or camaraderie as a team. It's pretty much the opposite approach to team building that Liquid takes.
can you actually prove how liquid approaches team building?
Well, I've seen them mention that they take into account more than the player's skill level when recruiting. For instance, you will never see someone like Idra on their team because of his attitude. EG on the other hand, seem to only take into account the skill level of the player, like when they recruited Huk when at the time Huk and Idra had pretty bad blood between them.
On February 06 2012 11:52 Kennigit wrote: There are a lot of people in this thread who need to apologize for playing that race not believing in 2012 Year of Liquid
On February 06 2012 12:50 Magashi wrote: GG Liquid <3
Maybe EG will be bad in team league formats, but I think in solo performances they will be ok.
there is not much of a difference in solo and team if that was solo team liquid would have 3 players who just beat 3 eg members...no difference
well its bo1 :| , eh just tryin to say even though someone comes out as the loser doesnt mean they are done for good or "so badz!". happens in every thread guess its just standard.
On February 06 2012 12:22 K3Nyy wrote: Oh wow Puma and JYP lost.. is it me or does it feel like they've been doing worse since they switched to EG..
How can you say such a thing? They were not playing in any tournament before they went with EG.
I guess GSL is not a tourney? Seriously, they were both big names in korea when they were picked up, and puma went to NASL s1 on TSL. I also wonder how many people remember how big of a monster Puma was for TSL in the gstl. However, I don't agree with that guy, it is way to early to tell if they are getting worse, and it is also a really douche thing to say imo.
Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
I love Team Liquid So much. They're all so skilled. They're gonna win the NASTL. I can tell. And they beat EG. That's really all that matters. No offense to Demuslim but I think HuK would've been a better choice.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
On February 06 2012 12:22 K3Nyy wrote: Oh wow Puma and JYP lost.. is it me or does it feel like they've been doing worse since they switched to EG..
How can you say such a thing? They were not playing in any tournament before they went with EG.
I guess GSL is not a tourney? Seriously, they were both big names in korea when they were picked up, and puma went to NASL s1 on TSL. I also wonder how many people remember how big of a monster Puma was for TSL in the gstl. However, I don't agree with that guy, it is way to early to tell if they are getting worse, and it is also a really douche thing to say imo.
To be completely fair, tons of players who were dominating in Code S in the time period you're talking about (around 10-12 months ago) are not even in the GSL any more.
Puma's play for TSL consisted of what... 10 games? 10 games does not a player make.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
Korean tosses like JYP the best or at least top 3 Korean pvz?
Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
Korean tosses like JYP the best or at least top 3 Korean pvz?
Well he has lost to HongUn, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Ace and Choya all last year in the GSL. It's improved a lot though.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
Things just don't look that great for non-Korean players in general.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
only jyp is in the gsl.
Zenio, Idra, Hero, and Huk are too -- they're just all in Code A. It doesn't look like Puma is in the GSL though.
Haha, wow I'm really behind the times. Code A started already so I'm completely wrong. Ignore this. I thought the Lunar New Year would delay GSL longer than it did and the times are kinda horrible for me to watch.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
only jyp is in the gsl.
Zenio, Idra, Hero, and Huk are too -- they're just all in Code A. It doesn't look like Puma is in the GSL though.
No huk and idra got eliminated in Code A ro48. They are in Code B.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
only jyp is in the gsl.
Zenio, Idra, Hero, and Huk are too -- they're just all in Code A. It doesn't look like Puma is in the GSL though.
No huk and idra got eliminated in Code A ro48. They are in Code B.
On February 06 2012 14:35 mvtaylor wrote: Wow EG have been putting in some shambolic performances in 2012.
Losing 3/3 in the NASTL Losing 1/1 in the IPL TAC IdrA, HuK and JYP losing in GSL with two being knocked to Code B DeMu losing to BlinG and losing 3-0 to Illusion in the IEM Sao Paulo qualifier Losing Axslav and StrifeCro
Compared to the positives of... beating vVv in a clan war, JYP getting third at HSC4 and qualifying for the IEM Season 6 final and DeMusliM actually getting a spot at IEM Sao Paulo by another player dropping out. Dear oh dear.
To be fair, they can probably still bank on having 3 players in the GSL as opposed to Liquid's two. As far As I know, all EG and Liquid GSL players are in Code A, correct?
If we exclude all Koreans, EG is still the most successful team by a fairly large margin.If we're including Koreans, no foreign team really comes close, even if they have Korean players.
Things just don't look that great for non-Korean players in general.
? If you're talking about the present, EG has only one player left in GSL [JYP]. If you're talking about the past, then Liquid has had plenty in GSL beyond Hero and Zenio [Jinro, Sheth, Ret, and if you're counting open seasons, TLO and Haypro]. Even in the not too distant past, EG has only had the most players in GSL because they hired them after they already reached GSL code S, whereas you could point to Liquid as arguably being the staging point where Huk made Code A/S.
This is not to hate on EG, though, I love them, just not as much as Liquid , but it's pretty undeniable that they just aren't that successful in 2012 so far.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
JYP isnt a korean toss? god i love these ppl
Zenio's lost to HongUn, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Ace and Choya last year in the GSL. One good game against a Korean toss does not mean he doesn't have trouble against Korean tosses. God i love these ppl and their inclination to forget all kinds of previous matches when they see one good game out of somebody.
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
JYP isnt a korean toss? god i love these ppl
Zenio's lost to HongUn, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Ace and Choya last year in the GSL. One good game against a Korean toss does not mean he doesn't have trouble against Korean tosses. God i love these ppl and their inclination to forget all kinds of previous matches when they see one good game out of somebody.
"Bad against terrans and korean tosses?" just quoting you <3 just b/c u dont specify anything u just sorta generalize....was too funny not to quote <3
I'm so glad Ret beat Puma !!! For Zenio, that does confirm to me that his ZvP is really solid, he keeps beating top protoss player. Idra ? kinda expected this so i'm not gonna make a fuss over that everytime it happens anymore
On February 06 2012 14:17 Yamulo wrote: Just a general question, but why do so many people seem to doubt zenio? I think people really don't understand that he is a code S zerg (well up/downs now, but still).
Maybe cause he's bad against terrans and korean tosses? I just think people haven't seen him play as much as other TL players, so they are naturally cautious.
JYP isnt a korean toss? god i love these ppl
Zenio's lost to HongUn, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Ace and Choya last year in the GSL. One good game against a Korean toss does not mean he doesn't have trouble against Korean tosses. God i love these ppl and their inclination to forget all kinds of previous matches when they see one good game out of somebody.
Zenio is really solid actually. His worst match-up by far is his ZvP, but he's still very good. JYP is a great Protoss, and today just wasn't his day. I was actually expecting EG to win because of the match-ups like Puma vs Ret and Zenio vs JYP, but they both lost. People just have off days.
On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
On February 06 2012 15:44 Caladbolg wrote: On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
On February 06 2012 15:44 Caladbolg wrote: On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
On February 06 2012 15:44 Caladbolg wrote: On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
I mean c'mon, those are amazing lineups and fully capable of holding their own even against some of the Korean teams/clans out there.
I miss the old Fnatic though. Both the Sen era and the Rain one <3
Online perhaps, none of them would stack up on LAN (not counting TSL and Zenex) which is the most unfortunate thing about all these team leagues that most of them involve Europeans playing Koreans on the NA server.
You forgot Sheth for TL as well, Sheth is by far Liquid's best non Korean in team leagues.
On February 06 2012 15:44 Caladbolg wrote: On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
I mean c'mon, those are amazing lineups and fully capable of holding their own even against some of the Korean teams/clans out there.
I miss the old Fnatic though. Both the Sen era and the Rain one <3
Online perhaps, none of them would stack up on LAN (not counting TSL and Zenex) which is the most unfortunate thing about all these team leagues that most of them involve Europeans playing Koreans on the NA server.
You forgot Sheth for TL as well, Sheth is by far Liquid's best non Korean in team leagues.
Whoops. Was sure I put him in there (although I think Ret's still the better Zerg).
In the GSTL, sure they'd get owned, but they'd still perform decently. The two scenes (Korean/Non-Korean) are incomparable anyway, given the BW-carryover mentality of teamhouses and practice hours.
On February 06 2012 15:44 Caladbolg wrote: On the non-Korean team arguments... realistically, EG and Liquid are part of a larger tier of amazing non-Korean teams. We can't ignore the ff:
Dignitas - Select, Sjow, and Tandongho as proven aces, Dream, Bling, Killer, Merz (personal fave team) Mouz - Thorzain, Morrow, Mana, Hasuobs, Bigs... they're not a lot but they're probably the most talented team without a Korean trainee. And now that Morrow is in Korea... Empire - Kas, Violet, Happy, Beasty, Aristeo, and Welmu
I mean c'mon, those are amazing lineups and fully capable of holding their own even against some of the Korean teams/clans out there.
I miss the old Fnatic though. Both the Sen era and the Rain one <3
Online perhaps, none of them would stack up on LAN (not counting TSL and Zenex) which is the most unfortunate thing about all these team leagues that most of them involve Europeans playing Koreans on the NA server.
You forgot Sheth for TL as well, Sheth is by far Liquid's best non Korean in team leagues.
Whoops. Was sure I put him in there (although I think Ret's still the better Zerg).
In the GSTL, sure they'd get owned, but they'd still perform decently. The two scenes (Korean/Non-Korean) are incomparable anyway, given the BW-carryover mentality of teamhouses and practice hours.
Ret is probably better than Sheth but certainly not in team leagues. A bit like Nestea was better than DRG for a long time but you would always want DRG over Nestea in team leagues.
very happy about the result, dislike idra and dislike EG because of idra i am zenio fan tho, mainly because of the bitchslap ceremony he did to idra in gsl
any1 know why huk hasnt been used by EG so far in this tournament?
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
Even if they did have the money, they probably wouldn't derp up Korean-Foreign relations like other teams or rather companies have.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
That's why he went nuts after a random poster on TL for it. Sure.
Btw did you even read my post or did you rush a bodyguard style answer as soon as you seen the word blame associated to Idra (or EG)? Did you understand that this kind of mercs 'shit' is exactly the kind of backlash you get for making such dichotomies your bread and butter marketing wise?
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
That's why he went nuts after a random poster on TL for it. Sure.
Well, to be fair, he didn't "go nuts." He said "TL pays its players, like EG does," in a tone you may have found slightly condescending.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
That's why he went nuts after a random poster on TL for it. Sure.
Well, to be fair, he didn't "go nuts." He said "TL pays its players, like EG does," in a tone you may have found slightly condescending.
Yeah imbeciles is slightly condescending. LOL at the delusion.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
That's why he went nuts after a random poster on TL for it. Sure.
Well, to be fair, he didn't "go nuts." He said "TL pays its players, like EG does," in a tone you may have found slightly condescending.
Yeah imbeciles is slightly condescending. LOL at the desillusion.
Yeah, I've always thought it was weird how Idra will like flip out on random posters, and then people come and say, "Oh ya, it's not like he was upset or anything; he doesn't give a shit."
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
You and EG are equally to blame in this association of EG - TL = Bad vs Good, since you went to terms with making it your trade-in-stock, so don't hate on the backlashes, can't want to have your cake and eat it.
im sure idra pays for his cakes and eats it as much as he wants, he doesnt mind the backlash its the type of comments like that "mercs" shit that is stupid
That's why he went nuts after a random poster on TL for it. Sure.
Well, to be fair, he didn't "go nuts." He said "TL pays its players, like EG does," in a tone you may have found slightly condescending.
On February 06 2012 19:35 suejak wrote: Yeah, I've always thought it was weird how Idra will like flip out on random posters, and then people come and say, "Oh ya, it's not like he was upset or anything; he doesn't give a shit."
It's weird because the SC community is the only place I've seen where calling someone stupid is "flipping out".
The [R] thing was a practice that started in 2012, presumably so that there wouldn't be a need for 2 articles (preview/review) for every event to keep up with the results. It's not TLPro's fault that TL has been winning everything since.
On February 06 2012 19:35 suejak wrote: Yeah, I've always thought it was weird how Idra will like flip out on random posters, and then people come and say, "Oh ya, it's not like he was upset or anything; he doesn't give a shit."
It's weird because the SC community is the only place I've seen where calling someone stupid is "flipping out".
I don't know where you normally hang out then, because that post would have been considered flipping out in any rl or internet social environment I've ever seen.
On February 06 2012 19:28 Dandel Ion wrote: Result again spoiled by the TLpro sidebar T.T
Really? if there is any site that should spoil the results it's tlpro
Not the TLpro site, you know TL has won something if there's a thread or an added [R] in the TLpro sidebar. On the TL site here.
I think the [R] will always be there once the results are out, regardless of the result. It's just that Liquid has been on a tear so far in 2012 and have won pretty much every event the TLPro writers have done a preview for.
edit: Also, Liquid Team News in the sidebar is minimizable even if this wasn't the case lol.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
Both mercenaries and soldiers are payed because they need to eat. But the motivation for each may be different.
On February 06 2012 19:35 suejak wrote: Yeah, I've always thought it was weird how Idra will like flip out on random posters, and then people come and say, "Oh ya, it's not like he was upset or anything; he doesn't give a shit."
It's weird because the SC community is the only place I've seen where a professional publicly calling someone stupid is "flipping out".
It's everywhere the same and for a good reason, it is not good for your business, unless you're called EG I guess, thus it can't be motivated by reason, and thus you can infere it comes down to passions.
There was a thread like a few months ago, about Liquid not being competitive enough and not winning tournaments, and EG getting better and better. I guess these games are the conclusion to that thread :-)
On February 06 2012 19:44 Talin wrote: The [R] thing was a practice that started in 2012, presumably so that there wouldn't be a need for 2 articles (preview/review) for every event to keep up with the results. It's not TLPro's fault that TL has been winning everything since.
On February 06 2012 19:35 suejak wrote: Yeah, I've always thought it was weird how Idra will like flip out on random posters, and then people come and say, "Oh ya, it's not like he was upset or anything; he doesn't give a shit."
It's weird because the SC community is the only place I've seen where calling someone stupid is "flipping out".
I don't know where you normally hang out then, because that post would have been considered flipping out in any rl or internet social environment I've ever seen.
Everywhere. I've been in just about every RTS and MMORPG community since the original Age of Empires and the hypersensitivity of this community is entirely unique.
Of course, this is all extremely offtopic. So I'll leave you all to your overreactions.
I'm starting to suspect, almost certainly far too late, that in any match involving the EG team or one of the stronger players on EG, there will be the contingent that says something along the lines of "well EG just bought their good players" when they win or "I guess buying good players doesn't always pay off" when they lose. The implied team dynamic invoked when calling the Korean players "mercenaries" cannot be much more off - the streamed practice sessions certainly suggest otherwise among the foreigners, and from HSC4 people said that JYP was quite willing to socialize and work with people.
Of course there's no reason to suspect that there won't be TL bias on teamliquid.net, and there's little reason not to let the bias show in a team league. Cheer on your favorite team, celebrate when they win, even when a rival team loses, sure. For some reason, people, in this particular case, feel the need to go much further than that. There is a time and a place to criticize their business model or whatever, but the LR thread for a team league match is nowhere close to one of them. While IdrA's response is rather direct/condescending, he's no more in the wrong here, if at all.
I'm glad to see Liquid pull out the win here when I didn't think that was going to happen, but seeing people quite quickly jump into this mess again is quite disheartening and headache-inducing (the latter might have to do with staying up far too late). And yes, there is always the possibility that this originated as unserious banter or something, but I have very little reason to believe that.
On February 06 2012 20:35 dangthatsright wrote: I'm starting to suspect, almost certainly far too late, that in any match involving the EG team or one of the stronger players on EG, there will be the contingent that says something along the lines of "well EG just bought their good players" when they win or "I guess buying good players doesn't always pay off" when they lose. The implied team dynamic invoked when calling the Korean players "mercenaries" cannot be much more off - the streamed practice sessions certainly suggest otherwise among the foreigners, and from HSC4 people said that JYP was quite willing to socialize and work with people.
Of course there's no reason to suspect that there won't be TL bias on teamliquid.net, and there's little reason not to let the bias show in a team league. Cheer on your favorite team, celebrate when they win, even when a rival team loses, sure. For some reason, people, in this particular case, feel the need to go much further than that. There is a time and a place to criticize their business model or whatever, but the LR thread for a team league match is nowhere close to one of them. While IdrA's response is rather direct/condescending, he's no more in the wrong here, if at all.
I'm glad to see Liquid pull out the win here when I didn't think that was going to happen, but seeing people quite quickly jump into this mess again is quite disheartening and headache-inducing (the latter might have to do with staying up far too late). And yes, there is always the possibility that this originated as unserious banter or something, but I have very little reason to believe that.
Of course the anti-fanboyism is stupid but this is always gonna happen, even more so the bigger it gets. What do you think you would get if you had an online LR thread of Barcelona vs Real Madrid? And honestly, using the word mercenaries isnt exactly the biggest insult you could think of. People are gonna talk shit and site moderation can only go so far, players are gonna have to get used to it or stop reading live reports, sad as it might be.
That being said I respect idra a lot for still being an active member of this community.
On February 06 2012 20:35 dangthatsright wrote: I'm starting to suspect, almost certainly far too late, that in any match involving the EG team or one of the stronger players on EG, there will be the contingent that says something along the lines of "well EG just bought their good players" when they win or "I guess buying good players doesn't always pay off" when they lose. The implied team dynamic invoked when calling the Korean players "mercenaries" cannot be much more off - the streamed practice sessions certainly suggest otherwise among the foreigners, and from HSC4 people said that JYP was quite willing to socialize and work with people.
Of course there's no reason to suspect that there won't be TL bias on teamliquid.net, and there's little reason not to let the bias show in a team league. Cheer on your favorite team, celebrate when they win, even when a rival team loses, sure. For some reason, people, in this particular case, feel the need to go much further than that. There is a time and a place to criticize their business model or whatever, but the LR thread for a team league match is nowhere close to one of them. While IdrA's response is rather direct/condescending, he's no more in the wrong here, if at all.
I'm glad to see Liquid pull out the win here when I didn't think that was going to happen, but seeing people quite quickly jump into this mess again is quite disheartening and headache-inducing (the latter might have to do with staying up far too late). And yes, there is always the possibility that this originated as unserious banter or something, but I have very little reason to believe that.
I am a EG fan have been since EG cs with blackpanther and stevenson. I just believe there is to much bandwagoners on this board just because its a teamliquid website people here bash EG like theres no tomorrow, but when idrA is in the GSL or making it far at MLG orlando or even huk winning MLG people ride them so badly its not even funny. I see so much comments of people saying "idrA deserved to lose", "his a bad mouth player", "he complains about race imbalance".. when NesTea complains about protoss being so powerful no one cares because his the almighty zerg NesTea.. when he bad mouths he actually shows heart that he cares about winning and not being a motionless player like most of the koreans and actually tries to get better as in going to korea to train.. gets annoying when EG loses 1 MATCH, and it wasnt even a SERIES of BO3 it was BO1's and only thing i see is EG haters laugh and make fun of them why? because there a "team who buys players" what a joke..
On February 06 2012 20:35 dangthatsright wrote: I'm starting to suspect, almost certainly far too late, that in any match involving the EG team or one of the stronger players on EG, there will be the contingent that says something along the lines of "well EG just bought their good players" when they win or "I guess buying good players doesn't always pay off" when they lose. The implied team dynamic invoked when calling the Korean players "mercenaries" cannot be much more off - the streamed practice sessions certainly suggest otherwise among the foreigners, and from HSC4 people said that JYP was quite willing to socialize and work with people.
Of course there's no reason to suspect that there won't be TL bias on teamliquid.net, and there's little reason not to let the bias show in a team league. Cheer on your favorite team, celebrate when they win, even when a rival team loses, sure. For some reason, people, in this particular case, feel the need to go much further than that. There is a time and a place to criticize their business model or whatever, but the LR thread for a team league match is nowhere close to one of them. While IdrA's response is rather direct/condescending, he's no more in the wrong here, if at all.
I'm glad to see Liquid pull out the win here when I didn't think that was going to happen, but seeing people quite quickly jump into this mess again is quite disheartening and headache-inducing (the latter might have to do with staying up far too late). And yes, there is always the possibility that this originated as unserious banter or something, but I have very little reason to believe that.
Yeah people shouldn't ever use their brain to formulate thoughts and sentences more elaborate than an onomatopeia restricted to a random supportive comment about your favorite team. It is when people come to down to be willingful to censure one of the newest and most powerful medium out here, internet, that I get the syptoms you're describing here. Moreover I don't see why a LR isn't the place to talk about, especially when the thread is relevant to the matter. Are you going to hold a football match in a stadium and forbid people to discuss about who's the best player on the field. "Gentlemen, don't express sentences that could be taken to heart by someone else, everything must be friendly in the best of the worlds. It's for you own good I know what I'm talking about since I'm not in your shoes." What do we say about the good intentions? Yeah it's the veil for dictatorship.
Now if you want to discuss and express your opinion about the foundations of those statements, there's a way of doing it and that's the place for it, but not by holding a moralistic gun under your interlocutor's throat, it's overdone, overrated and ill-advised.
What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team. If you suggest teams shouldn't bring in Koreans because it is unfair on the other teams you are downright retarded. EG and Liquid were playing to win so they field the strongest possible teams, which means if you were lucky or rich enough to recruit some Koreans then you are going to play them. This mentality reminds me of that basketball film Glory Road.
Where are Jinro, Tyler, incontrol, lzgamer and machine? it's like they disappeared from the competitive gaming scene. :o I mean, I understand that they are not performing well compared to the other members of the team, but I wish they would at least get some screen time, it has been ages since I saw them playing.
On February 06 2012 21:30 DrN0 wrote: What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team.
Since you're British and making comparison to sports, let me remind you that in the most popular sport in UK (and the world) teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice, despite (sadly) being commonplace in sports today, does absolutely not sit well with the majority of fans. And neither it should because money should never have been allowed to be the deciding factor in sports to such a huge extent.
And the same holds for almost any other sport as well (not sure about the American based ones, I feel things might be different there).
The only way to have a fair and reasonable competition today is to have a central (kespa-like) organization and salary caps and transfer caps for all teams involved.
On February 06 2012 21:36 JustPassingBy wrote: Where are Jinro, Tyler, incontrol, lzgamer and machine? it's like they disappeared from the competitive gaming scene. :o I mean, I understand that they are not performing well compared to the other members of the team, but I wish they would at least get some screen time, it has been ages since I saw them playing.
Can't wait for Nony to be in the 1st line up and tear some koreans like it's nothing.
In both the PvZ matches the zerg player got the 3 base economy that they wanted.
Zenio scouted the gateways so it seemed Jyp lost confidence and tried to expand then Zenio straight up won with ling hydra.
In Hero vs Idra, Idra ended up with mass roach vs mass blink stalker. Why would you go pure roach?
After the zealots, protoss has several options to try and do damage such as void ray, phoenix, blink stalker, Dt, immortals, sentries and warp prism. Pure roach does not seem all that good vs any of them.
How would the game have played out differently if Idra had gone ling Hydra similarly to Zenio?
On February 06 2012 20:35 dangthatsright wrote: I'm starting to suspect, almost certainly far too late, that in any match involving the EG team or one of the stronger players on EG, there will be the contingent that says something along the lines of "well EG just bought their good players" when they win or "I guess buying good players doesn't always pay off" when they lose. The implied team dynamic invoked when calling the Korean players "mercenaries" cannot be much more off - the streamed practice sessions certainly suggest otherwise among the foreigners, and from HSC4 people said that JYP was quite willing to socialize and work with people.
Of course there's no reason to suspect that there won't be TL bias on teamliquid.net, and there's little reason not to let the bias show in a team league. Cheer on your favorite team, celebrate when they win, even when a rival team loses, sure. For some reason, people, in this particular case, feel the need to go much further than that. There is a time and a place to criticize their business model or whatever, but the LR thread for a team league match is nowhere close to one of them. While IdrA's response is rather direct/condescending, he's no more in the wrong here, if at all.
I'm glad to see Liquid pull out the win here when I didn't think that was going to happen, but seeing people quite quickly jump into this mess again is quite disheartening and headache-inducing (the latter might have to do with staying up far too late). And yes, there is always the possibility that this originated as unserious banter or something, but I have very little reason to believe that.
I am a EG fan have been since EG cs with blackpanther and stevenson. I just believe there is to much bandwagoners on this board just because its a teamliquid website people here bash EG like theres no tomorrow, but when idrA is in the GSL or making it far at MLG orlando or even huk winning MLG people ride them so badly its not even funny. I see so much comments of people saying "idrA deserved to lose", "his a bad mouth player", "he complains about race imbalance".. when NesTea complains about protoss being so powerful no one cares because his the almighty zerg NesTea.. when he bad mouths he actually shows heart that he cares about winning and not being a motionless player like most of the koreans and actually tries to get better as in going to korea to train.. gets annoying when EG loses 1 MATCH, and it wasnt even a SERIES of BO3 it was BO1's and only thing i see is EG haters laugh and make fun of them why? because there a "team who buys players" what a joke..
On February 06 2012 06:27 QNdie wrote: Well, I think that either liquid will take it 3-1 or ace will decide, all up to ret and puma + haypro and demuslim, I think the most even MUs in the series. I'm preety confident the koreans in liquid can clean up JYP and IdrA. IdrA did not seem to react well at all to allins in ZvP and looked horrible in Code A and HerO is known for his PvZ. Zenio has had really good ZvP recently and JYP lost his Code S group super bad so I think that Zenio has it preety ok. Other than that: Ret ? PuMa Zenio > JYP HerO > IdrA Haypro ? Demuslim
its funny how liquid bias you are :D but this is team liquid.net so i understand. Personally i think puma will beat ret, JYP will beat zenio, hero will beat idra but not because idra looked horrible in code a just that hero is friggin amazing, and the decider will be haypro vs demuslim, I'm giving the edge to demuslim just because ghosts are OP i haven't seen like any haypro play lately but i do know he is pretty good
No this is the funny part your silly rent cauze the dude was a fan and right at that.
On February 06 2012 21:30 DrN0 wrote: What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team.
Since you're British and making comparison to sports, let me remind you that in the most popular sport in UK (and the world) teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice, despite (sadly) being commonplace in sports today, does absolutely not sit well with the majority of fans. And neither it should because money should never have been allowed to be the deciding factor in sports to such a huge extent.
And the same holds for almost any other sport as well (not sure about the American based ones, I feel things might be different there).
The only way to have a fair and reasonable competition today is to have a central (kespa-like) organization and salary caps and transfer caps for all teams involved.
That is such crap, Man Utd has the largest fan base of any football team and very often spends over 50 million in one year, I think you have severely underrated how much fans enjoy watching the best talent in the world on their own soil. Yes some fans will make fun of teams with money but it isn't to say money is a bad thing. For example Everton never get any money to spend and their fans often point out that they do very well for their lack of money, that's not to say they wouldn't welcome money themselves in fact some of the supporters put their own money into the club.
As for the big clubs being hated the more powerful you become the more enemies you make, many people may hate Barcelona but almost everyone can appreciate the football they play.
On February 06 2012 21:36 Talin wrote: [football] teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice does not sit well with the majority of fans.
What, that's just not true at all for anyone I know who's into football. People complaining about other teams spending practicies can be attributed back to own-team bias. They're never going to complain when their own team spends x million on top tier players. Only when teams they don't support do.
On February 06 2012 20:31 symtab wrote: There was a thread like a few months ago, about Liquid not being competitive enough and not winning tournaments, and EG getting better and better. I guess these games are the conclusion to that thread :-)
Nope, that debate will go on forever, because people bring it up everytime a TL or EG player falls short of expectations. Unfortunately that is just the way it is.
People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
On February 06 2012 21:36 Talin wrote: [football] teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice does not sit well with the majority of fans.
What, that's just not true at all for anyone I know who's into football. People complaining about other teams spending practicies can be attributed back to own-team bias. They're never going to complain when their own team spends x million on top tier players. Only when teams they don't support do.
everyone who i know, regardless of team or league which they support; they all hate manchester city
No conclusions being drawn sir, but TL is doing well and EG has not been getting results, as demonstrated in this match. How many head to heads to change your opinion? and what kind of format will convince you?
On February 06 2012 21:30 DrN0 wrote: What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team.
Since you're British and making comparison to sports, let me remind you that in the most popular sport in UK (and the world) teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice, despite (sadly) being commonplace in sports today, does absolutely not sit well with the majority of fans. And neither it should because money should never have been allowed to be the deciding factor in sports to such a huge extent.
And the same holds for almost any other sport as well (not sure about the American based ones, I feel things might be different there).
The only way to have a fair and reasonable competition today is to have a central (kespa-like) organization and salary caps and transfer caps for all teams involved.
That is such crap, Man Utd has the largest fan base of any football team and very often spends over 50 million in one year, I think you have severely underrated how much fans enjoy watching the best talent in the world on their own soil. Yes some fans will make fun of teams with money but it isn't to say money is a bad thing. For example Everton never get any money to spend and their fans often point out that they do very well for their lack of money, that's not to say they wouldn't welcome money themselves in fact some of the supporters put their own money into the club.
As for the big clubs being hated the more powerful you become the more enemies you make, many people may hate Barcelona but almost everyone can appreciate the football they play.
I think he was referring more to teams that basically go from bad/average to top contenders very fast because of an influx of money as is the case with Chelsea and Machester City.
In the case of Everton the supporters would most likely all stay and love Everton whether they had money or not, but as long as they don't have money "no one" else will care... but make Everton top contenders in a season by spending loads of money and you are sure to get a lot of haters saying Everton doesn't deserve the success because they haven't "earned it".
On February 06 2012 21:36 Talin wrote: [football] teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice does not sit well with the majority of fans.
What, that's just not true at all for anyone I know who's into football. People complaining about other teams spending practicies can be attributed back to own-team bias. They're never going to complain when their own team spends x million on top tier players. Only when teams they don't support do.
everyone who i know, regardless of team or league which they support; they all hate manchester city
You should think about it in the context of this:
1. Manchester City was a winner way before United was. 2. United got money and thus begun to win. City suddenly didn't have it and begun to lose. 3. Recently, they got money again.
really, City is a little club that could that got lucky. they got blessed. we really should be rooting for them and for the americans to ruin the money machine that is united.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
On February 06 2012 21:30 DrN0 wrote: What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team.
Since you're British and making comparison to sports, let me remind you that in the most popular sport in UK (and the world) teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice, despite (sadly) being commonplace in sports today, does absolutely not sit well with the majority of fans. And neither it should because money should never have been allowed to be the deciding factor in sports to such a huge extent.
And the same holds for almost any other sport as well (not sure about the American based ones, I feel things might be different there).
The only way to have a fair and reasonable competition today is to have a central (kespa-like) organization and salary caps and transfer caps for all teams involved.
That isn't how it works at all. Teams that win are universally hated, it doesn't matter how you do it.
Barcelona have a shit load of haters and most of their team came through their academy.
Plus all top football teams spend insane money on players. It's just how the sport works.
On February 06 2012 21:36 Talin wrote: [football] teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice does not sit well with the majority of fans.
What, that's just not true at all for anyone I know who's into football. People complaining about other teams spending practicies can be attributed back to own-team bias. They're never going to complain when their own team spends x million on top tier players. Only when teams they don't support do.
everyone who i know, regardless of team or league which they support; they all hate manchester city
You should think about it in the context of this:
1. Manchester City was a winner way before United was. 2. United got money and thus begun to win. City suddenly didn't have it and begun to lose. 3. Recently, they got money again.
really, City is a little club that could that got lucky. they got blessed. we really should be rooting for them and for the americans to ruin the money machine that is united.
and go TL rah rah rah
Man Utd didn't get money. They've always been rich because they are a big club with a huge fanbase and have been since the 50s.
On February 06 2012 21:36 JustPassingBy wrote: Where are Jinro, Tyler, incontrol, lzgamer and machine? it's like they disappeared from the competitive gaming scene. :o I mean, I understand that they are not performing well compared to the other members of the team, but I wish they would at least get some screen time, it has been ages since I saw them playing.
Tyler needs some more time to get prepared while I'm sure we'll see Jinro in future CWs.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 02:07 Kergy wrote:
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
Apologies I agree, I'd prefer bo3 for this type of setup, winners all kill format works for bo1 though, as long as it's bo11 in total for example, like the KSL used recently, so even an all kill is going to be 5 games which is relatively rare.
Although I can see this bo1 system is much easier to organise for everyone involved.
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 02:07 Kergy wrote:
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
It's how Proleague has been running for years (+/- 2v2s, but that's irrelevant). I like NASTL/GCPL format more than any other league because it's something that I'm used to, but also because this specific format has its intricacies that no other format has when it comes to picking players and how much individual players are worth.
IMO if you let players play series between each other, maps and sniping lose quite a lot of importance, and it becomes a mini individual tournament of sorts. The overall match isn't BO1 anyway, it's still BO5 or BO7, so it's not like anybody wins or loses by a single game. The only difference is that different players play each set, which is what makes the team aspect (selecting roster and preparation) important.
It's also the only format where teams show style and character. Some get by using a ton of matchup snipers to eliminate better players, others have a well-rounded team of decent players, others yet have one superstar player that will win almost anything and need to develop a strategy on how to make the most out of the rest of their lineup, etc.
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 02:07 Kergy wrote:
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
It's how Proleague has been running for years (+/- 2v2s, but that's irrelevant). I like NASTL/GCPL format more than any other league because it's something that I'm used to, but also because this specific format has its intricacies that no other format has when it comes to picking players and how much individual players are worth.
IMO if you let players play series between each other, maps and sniping lose quite a lot of importance, and it becomes a mini individual tournament of sorts. The overall match isn't BO1 anyway, it's still BO5 or BO7, so it's not like anybody wins or loses by a single game. The only difference is that different players play each set, which is what makes the team aspect (selecting roster and preparation) important.
It's also the only format where teams show style and character. Some get by using a ton of matchup snipers to eliminate better players, others have a well-rounded team of decent players, others yet have one superstar player that will win almost anything and need to develop a strategy on how to make the most out of the rest of their lineup, etc.
This format grants more parity than any other, IMHO. Simply have 3 super talented players isn't enough, given map choices and match up choices. BO3's would take away from that. Though I'll agree this felt really short.
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 02:07 Kergy wrote:
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
It's how Proleague has been running for years (+/- 2v2s, but that's irrelevant). I like NASTL/GCPL format more than any other league because it's something that I'm used to, but also because this specific format has its intricacies that no other format has when it comes to picking players and how much individual players are worth.
IMO if you let players play series between each other, maps and sniping lose quite a lot of importance, and it becomes a mini individual tournament of sorts. The overall match isn't BO1 anyway, it's still BO5 or BO7, so it's not like anybody wins or loses by a single game. The only difference is that different players play each set, which is what makes the team aspect (selecting roster and preparation) important.
It's also the only format where teams show style and character. Some get by using a ton of matchup snipers to eliminate better players, others have a well-rounded team of decent players, others yet have one superstar player that will win almost anything and need to develop a strategy on how to make the most out of the rest of their lineup, etc.
Well this isn't proleague format, in proleague you don't know the lineups in advance, so coaches have choices to make other than 'hmm who likes what map?'. It makes it much more tense doing the lineups on the fly
155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
AWW but guys... guys... hey zerg isn't supposed to beat protoss... except zenio over JYP and terious (who?) over HuK and you know any one who isn't idra. T-T
Game so imba and not fair.
Plain and simple, I would take TLO any single day over idra. TLO doesn't whine imbalance, he just learns and practices more, doesn't even let that negativity into his mind. That's how it should be viewed 100% of the time.
Congrats to team liquid. I am glad to see them take down another team league victory and I hope it translates into some individual titles again soon.
On February 07 2012 03:55 zul wrote: 155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
this. can some of u guys try to explain, how you should stop this all in? cause im way to bad to see, what idra made wrong in that game. and listening to the casters didnt help. i mean grubby was like "oh yeah that is a perfekt defense from idra. hmmm well, ok that did more dmg than i thought it would. ok this is perfekt for hero." so that didnt really help^^
i dont want to start some balance or imba talk here, but i just dont really see how idra could have stoped this. it seems kind of unstopable if you only need to mass +2 blinkstalkers and can even screw up ur first engagement with them. so what should idra have done other than mass roaches?
On February 07 2012 03:55 zul wrote: 155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
this. can some of u guys try to explain, how you should stop this all in? cause im way to bad to see, what idra made wrong in that game. and listening to the casters didnt help. i mean grubby was like "oh yeah that is a perfekt defense from idra. hmmm well, ok that did more dmg than i thought it would. ok this is perfekt for hero." so that didnt really help^^
i dont want to start some balance or imba talk here, but i just dont really see how idra could have stoped this. it seems kind of unstopable if just mass +2 blinkstalkers and even screw up ur first engagement with them. so what should idra have done other than mass roaches?
thx and sry for the english grammer... :D
Hydra den and/or burrow would've done wonders there. Or killing the reinforcing pylon when Hero went to attack. Idra had a lot of options after holding off the first wave, but he went with the poor "build nothing but roaches" option.
On February 07 2012 03:55 zul wrote: 155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
this. can some of u guys try to explain, how you should stop this all in? cause im way to bad to see, what idra made wrong in that game. and listening to the casters didnt help. i mean grubby was like "oh yeah that is a perfekt defense from idra. hmmm well, ok that did more dmg than i thought it would. ok this is perfekt for hero." so that didnt really help^^
i dont want to start some balance or imba talk here, but i just dont really see how idra could have stoped this. it seems kind of unstopable if just mass +2 blinkstalkers and even screw up ur first engagement with them. so what should idra have done other than mass roaches?
thx and sry for the english grammer... :D
engaged offcreep, bad positioning. hero blinked nearly perfectly, idra still shouldve held it, cause his pure macro-reactions were right.
also, 155 vs 98 supply is quite normal in a raoch vs blinkstalker-fight. stalker = 125/50, 2 supply roach = 75/25, 2 supply
Didn't see the Idra vs. HerO game, but roaches surely aren't that great vs. Masses of Stalkers, let alone Blinkstalkers. However, Fungual Growth helps out a lot in combination with Speedlings or Hydralisks.
On February 07 2012 03:55 zul wrote: 155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
this. can some of u guys try to explain, how you should stop this all in? cause im way to bad to see, what idra made wrong in that game. and listening to the casters didnt help. i mean grubby was like "oh yeah that is a perfekt defense from idra. hmmm well, ok that did more dmg than i thought it would. ok this is perfekt for hero." so that didnt really help^^
i dont want to start some balance or imba talk here, but i just dont really see how idra could have stoped this. it seems kind of unstopable if just mass +2 blinkstalkers and even screw up ur first engagement with them. so what should idra have done other than mass roaches?
thx and sry for the english grammer... :D
Hydra den and/or burrow would've done wonders there. Or killing the reinforcing pylon when Hero went to attack. Idra had a lot of options after holding off the first wave, but he went with the poor "build nothing but roaches" option.
how? i mean, he didnt have the time to get up hydras (or did it just look that way?) i mean he could barely hold the ongoing attacks and it was never like toss stopped attacking for more than like 30 sec.
On February 07 2012 02:20 Full.tilt wrote: Football forums are worse than TL. Fact. I'm getting flashbacks to the rubbish I used to read when I frequented a couple.
On February 07 2012 02:07 Kergy wrote:
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: People on TL are so stupid when it comes to TL and EG. Always viewing it like good vs evil.... It gets a little silly. Nothing wrong with the way EG does business and no reason they should be hated. I get the Team Liquid bias, this being their site and all but the amount of useless comments that are just a lame attempt to take a shot at EG for losing is silly.
This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
Oh... would you like bo3's in team games? Now THAT owuld be the silliest thing ever.
Whilst it may not be too everyones taste, they can be pretty good, just like winners format. Not every team league has to be the same. Of course you may just be trolling EG as you're replying to an EG fanboy (as the EG masters cup uses bo3 in their team league)
Bo3s are much better imo. I love seeing an actual series(even a small one) to determine the winner of a head to head match(meaning one player vs another player, not team vs team). It also guarantees more games. Is anyone pleased with a clan war they just watched that ended after THREE whole games? That wasn't even really an event! All 3 games were pretty close and yet it still was over way too quickly.
And I am certainly not a EG fan boy haha. Mouz all the way
It's how Proleague has been running for years (+/- 2v2s, but that's irrelevant). I like NASTL/GCPL format more than any other league because it's something that I'm used to, but also because this specific format has its intricacies that no other format has when it comes to picking players and how much individual players are worth.
IMO if you let players play series between each other, maps and sniping lose quite a lot of importance, and it becomes a mini individual tournament of sorts. The overall match isn't BO1 anyway, it's still BO5 or BO7, so it's not like anybody wins or loses by a single game. The only difference is that different players play each set, which is what makes the team aspect (selecting roster and preparation) important.
It's also the only format where teams show style and character. Some get by using a ton of matchup snipers to eliminate better players, others have a well-rounded team of decent players, others yet have one superstar player that will win almost anything and need to develop a strategy on how to make the most out of the rest of their lineup, etc.
Well this isn't proleague format, in proleague you don't know the lineups in advance, so coaches have choices to make other than 'hmm who likes what map?'. It makes it much more tense doing the lineups on the fly
Actually, proleague you knew the line-ups in advance until at least 2009. I haven't watched proleague recently, so I'm not sure if they changed it, but the fact that you knew the line-ups in advance was very cool, as it allowed you to design builds specifically for the match-up. As with the NASTL, only the ace match was decided on the spot.
Also, got Liquid! It's great for a fan to see such success in the teamleagues. Well done especially to Ret and Zenio. Zenio really becoming a rock for TL.
I thought Proleague only stopped releasing lineups to the public in advance due to betting. I don't know whether the teams get to know them beforehand or not though, but I'm pretty sure even now decisions aren't made on the fly (ie during the match).
On February 06 2012 21:36 Talin wrote: [football] teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice does not sit well with the majority of fans.
What, that's just not true at all for anyone I know who's into football. People complaining about other teams spending practicies can be attributed back to own-team bias. They're never going to complain when their own team spends x million on top tier players. Only when teams they don't support do.
everyone who i know, regardless of team or league which they support; they all hate manchester city
You should think about it in the context of this:
1. Manchester City was a winner way before United was. 2. United got money and thus begun to win. City suddenly didn't have it and begun to lose. 3. Recently, they got money again.
really, City is a little club that could that got lucky. they got blessed. we really should be rooting for them and for the americans to ruin the money machine that is united.
and go TL rah rah rah
Man Utd didn't get money. They've always been rich because they are a big club with a huge fanbase and have been since the 50s.
In reality the United analogy is wrong. They are a big club, but the reason they are so rich is they happened to be big at the time the Premier League started to get going. They had a pre-existing fanbase that was large, and were reaping the benefits of much more lucrative TV deals, creating a self-sustaining wealth. If the Premier League breakaway had occurred 5-10 years previously, it's conceivable that Liverpool for example could have been top dogs.
I also second the query for VoDs, second day in a row I have missed Grubby casting!
What most people miss is that Manchester United, while having one of the highest revenues in Europe, is also one of, or maybe the most indebted club worldwide. Last thing I heared they were down about 800 millions €.
On February 07 2012 04:42 illu23 wrote: What most people miss is that Manchester United, while having one of the highest revenues in Europe, is also one of, or maybe the most indebted club worldwide. Last thing I heared they were down about 800 millions €.
This isn't true at all. I suggest you read this. Don't talk finance if you know nothing about it. It isn't even related to EG anyway.
So many things that you don't consider when talking about debt. ex: If you loan 10 million to buy a painting worth 15 million. How much debt do you have? Same shit for Manchester. They are worth so much more than the debt they have.
On February 07 2012 03:55 zul wrote: 155 supply versus 98 and IdrA still loses. wp by HerO, but IdrA made some mistakes; no burrow and also throwing small reinforcement packs to the blink stalker army.
this. can some of u guys try to explain, how you should stop this all in? cause im way to bad to see, what idra made wrong in that game. and listening to the casters didnt help. i mean grubby was like "oh yeah that is a perfekt defense from idra. hmmm well, ok that did more dmg than i thought it would. ok this is perfekt for hero." so that didnt really help^^
i dont want to start some balance or imba talk here, but i just dont really see how idra could have stoped this. it seems kind of unstopable if just mass +2 blinkstalkers and even screw up ur first engagement with them. so what should idra have done other than mass roaches?
thx and sry for the english grammer... :D
Hydra den and/or burrow would've done wonders there. Or killing the reinforcing pylon when Hero went to attack. Idra had a lot of options after holding off the first wave, but he went with the poor "build nothing but roaches" option.
how? i mean, he didnt have the time to get up hydras (or did it just look that way?) i mean he could barely hold the ongoing attacks and it was never like toss stopped attacking for more than like 30 sec.
yeah, the supply thing i knew
He definitley had time to get hydras if that's the route he wanted to go. Lots of zergs get a "saftey" hydra den and don't do anything with it until/if they see a heavy gateway all-in coming. Plus, the final battle took like 5 minutes from the time Hero first engaged. If he'd made 2 fewer roaches at any point, he could've afforded it easily. He had surpluss gas.
And if he didn't want Hydras because he read colossi off of something, he still could've researched burrow at ANY POINT after he saw blink and had it finish before his forces had been decimated. There were options, but Idra thought he could overpower him with pure roach. FWIW, he was almost right. If he killed the reinforcing pylon, he'd probably have won anyways.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
What he also forgot to mention is Liquid is 3-0 while EG is 0-3.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
On February 07 2012 03:38 nvs. wrote: The way TL acquired Zenio and Hero is in no way similar to how EG acquired Puma at the first NASL.
Please do not even try to compare....
(Idra)
Um Eg got Puma right after he won a major tournament NASL and Liquid picked up Hero who had no success maybe 1 online tourney in 2nd place and Zenio who did not win any tournaments recent of the pick up.... I could be wrong though.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
Tyler changed his name back?
woooooahhhhhh
Hello where have you been these last days? =) :D
Something such as this should have had a front page article written for it! I guess I somehow missed it.
Or even in the Liquid news since that's where I look most of the time >.<
On February 07 2012 03:38 nvs. wrote: The way TL acquired Zenio and Hero is in no way similar to how EG acquired Puma at the first NASL.
Please do not even try to compare....
(Idra)
Um Eg got Puma right after he won a major tournament NASL and Liquid picked up Hero who had no success maybe 1 online tourney in 2nd place and Zenio who did not win any tournaments recent of the pick up.... I could be wrong though.
TL got their pickups through their relationship with oGs (read the thread welcoming HerO to the team for further detail), and Zenio was teamless when he was picked up. Also Zenio hadn't won anything, but he was CODE S.... I don't know why people always seem to overlook that. I also don't know though how people can be mad at EG for acquiring good players, it isn't like it is bad for the players either. Think about Puma, EG acquiring him allows him more exposure, and a salary. People try to portray it as if EG is just this company that is trying to buy out talent, but they are giving many good players more opportunities, with a good example being JYP now getting more exposure (who I think was also teamless when he was acquired). Just my opinion though.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
HerO and Zenio getting picked up is nothing like PuMa's pick up. Barely anybody knew who HerO even was before Liquid acquired him. He got all the fame and attention after he joined TeamLiquid.
Zenio I agree was a little more famous and was already known as a good player, but Zenio joined TeamLiquid because he still liked his team oGs and still wanted to be associated with them, but didn't want to live in their house. oGs and TeamLiquid are partnered, so that was the best way to go about it. He still likes oGs, he's even helping their lineup in the GSTL.
I don't know if I agree with PuMa getting picked up by EG either. If EG is to be believed, they said they started talking to PuMa early on, around the round of 8 even.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
It's simply a matter of culture and personal preference, you can't get people to think the way you do.
As I said, it's nothing personal towards EG, I like most of their players and have known them since Media days. I just can't stand the business and management, that is all. I have the exact same sentiments towards SK (especially), Fnatic (after Xeris left), Complexity, and that whole crew. Likewise, I will always support not only Liquid, but teams like Light and Root which are the grassroots SC2 teams and have grown from this community, and they put 100% of their resources and effort in SC2 alone.
Every single team is ran as a business, but still not all teams act this way. TL could commercialize the website alone (it's literally the cornerstone of foreign SC2, they can do whatever they want to and it will still take years for a competing community site to reach this level) and fund their team a lot more than they do - but they don't, because it's a lot healthier in the long run, you don't really need to with good player management.
I can see your argument and the points you make, but I will not change my mind on this because it simply goes against my principles. Hell, I spent hours arguing against the idea of capitalism and unregulated free market on various General threads - I'm sorry but I'm definitely not going to simply accept concepts that I feel so strong against ruin something which is my passion/hobby.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
So you seem to be arguing that it's morally ok to be the "mercenary" team... I think everybody agrees that it's up for debate whether it's cool or not to be the money-grubbers, but it's not really up for debate whether EG is that team or not.
Anyway, my intent was to explain why the image exists. EG has lots of money and they buy players off with lots of fanfare in drama-filled circumstances. EG also cuts "underperformers" for not "providing an ROI". Liquid doesn't do either of these things, and so it doesn't have the same corporate mercenary image. I think Liquid benefits a ton from that, so I hope they don't try to argue that all teams are basically the same, deep down. It'd kill their brand.
It's true that Huk and Liquid are on good terms and it's true that TSL ended up being (somewhat) suspect in the Puma drama, but it's also true that neither of these things matter. EG bought HuK from a beloved team in a community drama shitstorm that highlighted people's emotional impressions of the two teams (bad v good). EG bought Puma from a small underdog team IMMEDIATELY after his first major victory. That's what people saw, and that's what made the image.
So yeah, being the rich team and buying off players earns you a mercenary image. Surprise!
grassroots team like ROot and Light are the ones that can't support players to be playing full-time. You want a bunch of amateur gamers who only play gaming part time? Well that ain't the way to go. EG, Complexity, Fnatic, etc. are the ones with financial power to GRANT people the opportunity to play full-time gaming without worrying if they are able to eat the next day if they don't win the playhem. Jesus christ.
On February 07 2012 08:16 89andy wrote: grassroots team like ROot and Light are the ones that can't support players to be playing full-time. You want a bunch of amateur gamers who only play gaming part time? Well that ain't the way to go. EG, Complexity, Fnatic, etc. are the ones with financial power to GRANT people the opportunity to play full-time gaming without worrying if they are able to eat the next day if they don't win the playhem. Jesus christ.
They can't support full time players NOW. If there is a (financially) fair playing field, that could change in near future. However, if Kawaii wins an MLG and then gets picked up by Complexity or w/e, you're basically gutting a team and denying them a future and a chance to acquire sponsorships.
Root's lineup right now would be: Kiwi, Slush, Sheth, qxc, Catz, Drewbie and Destiny. Do you think that it would be impossible for this team to get their own sponsorship now? I don't. They're all marketable and they would be hands down the best North American team roster-wise, and dominantly so. But now a ton of other teams is exploiting their success and popularity as players. And for all the popularity Catz (in particular) and Drewbie have, do you really think Complexity will be willing to provide them with long term future? Look at what happened to FXO once the management got bored of having a foreign team and decided that taking over fOu is efficient, simpler, easier, and quite possibly cheaper.
Do you think Huk will still be on EG with the same (let alone bigger) salary in 2 years, IF there is even an SC2 EG in 2 years, considering these organization will always go after the "hottest" new esport that guarantees the most exposure and leave their other divisions on the backburner (if they keep them at all)?
It's all about whether a few top players get paid well now while all the perspective teams fall, or a ton more players get paid well in a few years once the scene really grows instead of just being an artificially inflated bubble that it is now. What is going on now in SC2 is simply not sustainable in the long run - and that's fine for organizations that will move on to a different game in a few years, because they benefit from the exposure of SC2 but also have follow-up options. It is definitely not fine for the future of SC2 players, no matter what salary they're on right now.
Eurgh, a painful series to watch. All-in, punishment, all-in. Kinda sad how many roaches Idra made and still got crushed by those blink stalkers of Hero. Usually I get dominated by roaches with pure blink stalker, even with +2. I guess Hero's micro is just that good. Also kinda disappointing to watch, I usually love watching Ret or Zenio because of how drone happy they are, it usually turns into a nice long, entertaining game. To watch Puma and JYP get smashed by roach all-ins is kinda depressing from an entertainment standpoint.
On February 07 2012 08:27 Larkin wrote: Eurgh, a painful series to watch. All-in, punishment, all-in. Kinda sad how many roaches Idra made and still got crushed by those blink stalkers of Hero. Usually I get dominated by roaches with pure blink stalker, even with +2. I guess Hero's micro is just that good. Also kinda disappointing to watch, I usually love watching Ret or Zenio because of how drone happy they are, it usually turns into a nice long, entertaining game. To watch Puma and JYP get smashed by roach all-ins is kinda depressing from an entertainment standpoint.
On February 07 2012 08:16 89andy wrote: grassroots team like ROot and Light are the ones that can't support players to be playing full-time. You want a bunch of amateur gamers who only play gaming part time? Well that ain't the way to go. EG, Complexity, Fnatic, etc. are the ones with financial power to GRANT people the opportunity to play full-time gaming without worrying if they are able to eat the next day if they don't win the playhem. Jesus christ.
They can't support full time players NOW. If there is a (financially) fair playing field, that could change in near future. However, if Kawaii wins an MLG and then gets picked up by Complexity or w/e, you're basically gutting a team and denying them a future and a chance to acquire sponsorships.
Root's lineup right now would be: Kiwi, Slush, Sheth, qxc, Catz, Drewbie and Destiny. Do you think that it would be impossible for this team to get their own sponsorship now? I don't. They're all marketable and they would be hands down the best North American team roster-wise, and dominantly so. But now a ton of other teams is exploiting their success and popularity as players. And for all the popularity Catz (in particular) and Drewbie have, do you really think Complexity will be willing to provide them with long term future? Look at what happened to FXO once the management got bored of having a foreign team and decided that taking over fOu is efficient, simpler, easier, and quite possibly cheaper.
Do you think Huk will still be on EG with the same (let alone bigger) salary in 2 years, IF there is even an SC2 EG in 2 years, considering these organization will always go after the "hottest" new esport that guarantees the most exposure and leave their other divisions on the backburner (if they keep them at all)?
It's all about whether a few top players get paid well now while all the perspective teams fall, or a ton more players get paid well in a few years once the scene really grows instead of just being an artificially inflated bubble that it is now. What is going on now in SC2 is simply not sustainable in the long run - and that's fine for organizations that will move on to a different game in a few years, because they benefit from the exposure of SC2 but also have follow-up options. It is definitely not fine for the future of SC2 players, no matter what salary they're on right now.
Root DID have the lineup before. Look where that got them. Sponsorship dollars ARE HARD TO GET. You need skilled people to present hard data to these sponsors in order to entice them. Merely having a good lineup of players is not good enough. Back then Kiwi and QXC were the top players in NA and they still couldn't secure any kind of real sponsor. You think they can live off cup noodles every day?
And no this is not really sustainable your living in a dream where many many mid tier pros can live off a decent salary, well fat chance. There just isn't enough money in the scene right now unless viewership numbers jump another 2-3 times probably.
FXO dropped many of their players because most of them would not commit themselves to full time pro. They still kept FXOSlog for example, because he made the choice to stay in Korea. They did not cut them to take the easy way out, they wanted to built a legit good team.
On February 07 2012 08:16 89andy wrote: grassroots team like ROot and Light are the ones that can't support players to be playing full-time. You want a bunch of amateur gamers who only play gaming part time? Well that ain't the way to go. EG, Complexity, Fnatic, etc. are the ones with financial power to GRANT people the opportunity to play full-time gaming without worrying if they are able to eat the next day if they don't win the playhem. Jesus christ.
They can't support full time players NOW. If there is a (financially) fair playing field, that could change in near future. However, if Kawaii wins an MLG and then gets picked up by Complexity or w/e, you're basically gutting a team and denying them a future and a chance to acquire sponsorships.
Root's lineup right now would be: Kiwi, Slush, Sheth, qxc, Catz, Drewbie and Destiny. Do you think that it would be impossible for this team to get their own sponsorship now? I don't. They're all marketable and they would be hands down the best North American team roster-wise, and dominantly so. But now a ton of other teams is exploiting their success and popularity as players. And for all the popularity Catz (in particular) and Drewbie have, do you really think Complexity will be willing to provide them with long term future? Look at what happened to FXO once the management got bored of having a foreign team and decided that taking over fOu is efficient, simpler, easier, and quite possibly cheaper.
Do you think Huk will still be on EG with the same (let alone bigger) salary in 2 years, IF there is even an SC2 EG in 2 years, considering these organization will always go after the "hottest" new esport that guarantees the most exposure and leave their other divisions on the backburner (if they keep them at all)?
It's all about whether a few top players get paid well now while all the perspective teams fall, or a ton more players get paid well in a few years once the scene really grows instead of just being an artificially inflated bubble that it is now. What is going on now in SC2 is simply not sustainable in the long run - and that's fine for organizations that will move on to a different game in a few years, because they benefit from the exposure of SC2 but also have follow-up options. It is definitely not fine for the future of SC2 players, no matter what salary they're on right now.
Root DID have the lineup before. Look where that got them. Sponsorship dollars ARE HARD TO GET. You need skilled people to present hard data to these sponsors in order to entice them. Merely having a good lineup of players is not good enough. Back then Kiwi and QXC were the top players in NA and they still couldn't secure any kind of real sponsor. You think they can live off cup noodles every day?
And no this is not really sustainable your living in a dream where many many mid tier pros can live off a decent salary, well fat chance. There just isn't enough money in the scene right now unless viewership numbers jump another 2-3 times probably.
FXO dropped many of their players because most of them would not commit themselves to full time pro. They still kept FXOSlog for example, because he made the choice to stay in Korea. They did not cut them to take the easy way out, they wanted to built a legit good team.
Yeah, Root did have the lineup, but their players haven't really had the same amount of exposure and success. Sheth was nowhere to be seen while on Root for example, and Destiny was still this fringe character that a lot people in the community hated, and most others didn't take him seriously. They actually managed to get some sponsorships a few months before the Complexity deal (Twitch and 2 others iirc). They had a growing fanbase, and this was in 2010/early 2011 when the whole scene was still growing. All they really needed was a little more time imo, it's just that FXO and Complexity etc showed up first, and obviously it would be stupid of the players to refuse an opportunity like that.
Viewership and sponsorships is never going to jump with things being ran the way they are now. They're only going to go down. Even the number of people who actually play SC2 is going down (and nobody is doing anything to promote the game itself). It's what the term bubble means. We might have had a decade-long scene where all the players on pro teams get a reasonable salary and can have an actual career, but we will not have this because western e-sports has once again, for a millionth time, elected "quick rise, quicker fall" strategy.
If you're resigned to SC2 being one more in the line of short term spotlight esport titles, then I suppose the current state of affairs is acceptable. The whole line of multi-gaming organizations and the usual esports sponsors have no motivation to make it anything else/more than that.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
how come Idra can go around calling people imbeciles and not get at least temp banned?
he gets tempbanned regularly, allthough i think this is pretty called for, calling EG mercenaries and implying they have no team spirit without any sort of explanation why this would be makes imbecile a pretty tame insult imo.
On February 06 2012 21:30 DrN0 wrote: What stupid point of view, Koreans are just brought in to win games, well of course they are its the same in any sport you try and get the most talented players in your team.
Since you're British and making comparison to sports, let me remind you that in the most popular sport in UK (and the world) teams that outspend their competition by a huge margin are almost universally hated. That business practice, despite (sadly) being commonplace in sports today, does absolutely not sit well with the majority of fans. And neither it should because money should never have been allowed to be the deciding factor in sports to such a huge extent.
And the same holds for almost any other sport as well (not sure about the American based ones, I feel things might be different there).
The only way to have a fair and reasonable competition today is to have a central (kespa-like) organization and salary caps and transfer caps for all teams involved.
Yeah Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester united, Chelsea, Inter, Milan are the most hated teams?
Please EG pays good salarys and creates a USA practice house and sends/gets 4 guys in the slayers house and they are a teams of mercenaries? They send them everywhere all around the world and they are mercenaries?
They are a professional team that works very hard to make stuff happen.. I understand why people don't like them but a team of "e-sports" mercenaries is a team that is low-tier with lots of SKoreans and they play online from home and get payed to play a few games. Sending people all around the world with their team to events and practice houses is just a team.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Awesome. With this free 1080p (or even 720p) stuff I am actually more and more looking forward to watching NAS(T)L. Well done, guys! You've improved a lot!
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
Liquid`NonY laying down the law, shit just got real, hehe!
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
At least that was how it was spun in "official" posts. Guess we have to ignore the fluff surrounding Liquid as well.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Not a long time ago someone posted his disbelief here that HuK was at first on Millenium, and won his first MLG under Millenium's colors. You'd be surprised at how many people around here somehow believe that TL "discovered" Huk and took him on the fly, when they simply made him a stronger offer after his eclosion under Millenium.
There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
It's simply a matter of culture and personal preference, you can't get people to think the way you do.
As I said, it's nothing personal towards EG, I like most of their players and have known them since Media days. I just can't stand the business and management, that is all. I have the exact same sentiments towards SK (especially), Fnatic (after Xeris left), Complexity, and that whole crew. Likewise, I will always support not only Liquid, but teams like Light and Root which are the grassroots SC2 teams and have grown from this community, and they put 100% of their resources and effort in SC2 alone.
Every single team is ran as a business, but still not all teams act this way. TL could commercialize the website alone (it's literally the cornerstone of foreign SC2, they can do whatever they want to and it will still take years for a competing community site to reach this level) and fund their team a lot more than they do - but they don't, because it's a lot healthier in the long run, you don't really need to with good player management.
I can see your argument and the points you make, but I will not change my mind on this because it simply goes against my principles. Hell, I spent hours arguing against the idea of capitalism and unregulated free market on various General threads - I'm sorry but I'm definitely not going to simply accept concepts that I feel so strong against ruin something which is my passion/hobby.
I disagree with your point of view, but my post is not meant to be combative, just going to leave my thoughts.
Teams like root, light, TL are (were) consistently trying to gain sponsorships, In other words, they're trying to be the EGs, the SKs, the fnatics etc. By your principle you'll have to dump a team every-time they gain financial support. But the ironic part is that if you're saying that you want to support grassroots sc2 teams, you should be doing so financially so that they can defend against the capital giants that you dislike.
TL didn't commercialize their site because that would be detrimental to the community, but they sure as hell made a separate site that they advertise here. What better advertisement could you ask for? TL's team content is literally everywhere on the TL forum and I wouldn't have it any other way. TL is my 2nd favorite team not just because of how much they've grown as a team but because they're doing a great job building their brand.
well, looks like idra hasn't gotten rid of his habit of attacking blink stalkers with roaches in wide open spaces and losing them. especially up ramps. that kid loves losing roaches by attacking up ramps.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
So you seem to be arguing that it's morally ok to be the "mercenary" team... I think everybody agrees that it's up for debate whether it's cool or not to be the money-grubbers, but it's not really up for debate whether EG is that team or not.
Anyway, my intent was to explain why the image exists. EG has lots of money and they buy players off with lots of fanfare in drama-filled circumstances. EG also cuts "underperformers" for not "providing an ROI". Liquid doesn't do either of these things, and so it doesn't have the same corporate mercenary image. I think Liquid benefits a ton from that, so I hope they don't try to argue that all teams are basically the same, deep down. It'd kill their brand.
It's true that Huk and Liquid are on good terms and it's true that TSL ended up being (somewhat) suspect in the Puma drama, but it's also true that neither of these things matter. EG bought HuK from a beloved team in a community drama shitstorm that highlighted people's emotional impressions of the two teams (bad v good). EG bought Puma from a small underdog team IMMEDIATELY after his first major victory. That's what people saw, and that's what made the image.
So yeah, being the rich team and buying off players earns you a mercenary image. Surprise!
Thing is almost every single team has that mentality. Liquid bought Hero and Zenio, Light bought Golden, Col wanted Naniwa and Stephano, Slayers bought Clide and Puzzle....how are these any different? EG has more money so they buy more, but it's not like they're doing something that 90% of organizations wouldn't do with that kind of money... also the team definitely needed an overhaul because a line up of Idra, Machine, Incontrol, Strifecro, LZ and Axslav probably wasn't going to cut it with the intentions EG has.
This is like hating Chelsea for reforming their team when they got the financial backing to do so, and implying teams like Fulham and Blackburn wouldn't do the exact same thing with that kind of money.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
This is exactly what I feel like I'm reading when fanboys are trying to explain how EG's acquiring players is somehow different from TL's acquiring of players.
i really love how NASTL is using a format that is more similar to proleague, it makes lineup orders and map selection that much more important. and an ace match too! awesome. first nasl match i watched, and i think i will watch more after this.
This is like hating Chelsea for reforming their team when they got the financial backing to do so, and implying teams like Fulham and Blackburn wouldn't do the exact same thing with that kind of money.
everyone hates chelsea because of their owner. just like everyone hates man city now because of their owner. it's not exactly 100% rational, but it nevertheless triggers strong distaste from most people.
I just wanted to say that I love this format and the broadcast quality is excellent. I'm so tired of watching SC2 where everything is super safe: Bo3/Bo5 double elimination tournaments, Bo7 series where every match is a Bo3, or just plain Bo9 matches. Matches like these bring awesome excitement because every game counts. Also, a SC2 broadcast doesn't have to be 4 hours long. With this format, broadcasts should be between 1-2 hours which I think is a nice comfortable duration.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
Wait....what?
How are they mercenaries?
You realize that all of these players are paid by their teams, right? Their salaries aren't for the amount of "a firm handshake and a warm smile"
Do you think EG has mercenaries because the players are getting paid more there than they were on previous teams? You realize that's how professional sports works, right? When you're in such a dynamic industry, where your career could only last a few years, you have to accept the larger salaires, to save for the unknown that follows.
The term "player - poaching" is absolutely stupid, btw. No team made the player sign that contract. If they actually only wanted team spirit, they wouldn't switch teams as often. You can't fault players for making financially sound decisions.
So yeah, the image, in case you're new, comes from the way EG has uniquely acquired its high-profile players by offering them loads of money to leave their present teams... often in drama-filled circumstances (most significantly HuK and Puma). They shoot for tip-top players and buy them once they're huge. They bought Puma after he won NASL 1. They bought HuK after he made it into Code S. They also have what are rumoured to be the most expensive players in the industry.
So ya, mercenary. A team of superstar would-be superpros slapped together with tons of money. So it's awesome when they get beat by the underdog "home team" of the SC community, TL.
Dunno why that's hard to understand, to be honest.
Every team would like to buy and field a group of powerhouse players, but you can't spend beyond your means. EG does it more because they enjoy a lot of financial power and a laundry list of sponsors. What's wrong with it? It's not like they're inherently evil; they're doing what every other team would try to do if they had that kind of money. Do you expect EG to go "well..we CAN buy a top Korean and have him play and improve our brand but we won't because it'll make other teams feel better"???
Btw it should be noted that Huk and Liquid are on very good terms and the Puma drama turned out to be almost nothing on EG's part....
So you seem to be arguing that it's morally ok to be the "mercenary" team... I think everybody agrees that it's up for debate whether it's cool or not to be the money-grubbers, but it's not really up for debate whether EG is that team or not.
Anyway, my intent was to explain why the image exists. EG has lots of money and they buy players off with lots of fanfare in drama-filled circumstances. EG also cuts "underperformers" for not "providing an ROI". Liquid doesn't do either of these things, and so it doesn't have the same corporate mercenary image. I think Liquid benefits a ton from that, so I hope they don't try to argue that all teams are basically the same, deep down. It'd kill their brand.
It's true that Huk and Liquid are on good terms and it's true that TSL ended up being (somewhat) suspect in the Puma drama, but it's also true that neither of these things matter. EG bought HuK from a beloved team in a community drama shitstorm that highlighted people's emotional impressions of the two teams (bad v good). EG bought Puma from a small underdog team IMMEDIATELY after his first major victory. That's what people saw, and that's what made the image.
So yeah, being the rich team and buying off players earns you a mercenary image. Surprise!
Thing is almost every single team has that mentality. Liquid bought Hero and Zenio, Light bought Golden, Col wanted Naniwa and Stephano, Slayers bought Clide and Puzzle....how are these any different? EG has more money so they buy more, but it's not like they're doing something that 90% of organizations wouldn't do with that kind of money... also the team definitely needed an overhaul because a line up of Idra, Machine, Incontrol, Strifecro, LZ and Axslav probably wasn't going to cut it with the intentions EG has.
This is like hating Chelsea for reforming their team when they got the financial backing to do so, and implying teams like Fulham and Blackburn wouldn't do the exact same thing with that kind of money.
If you don't get it, I don't really know how to explain it to you.
It has nothing to do with fanboyism or anything, and I don't think I've expressed a preference or passed a moral judgement. For all you people know, I'm an EG fanboy.
Fact remains that EG's image in buying top players out of their "homes". Liquid didn't "buy" Hero and Zenio in anywhere near the same way. They both joined Liquid in the smoothest, most organic oGs->Liquid transfer possible. They still have the option to live with oGs guys, and in no way has oGs expressed any discontent over the "acquisitions".
Contrast this with HuK->EG, where there was a galactic-class shitstorm and a number prominent TL staff members had to grin and bear the acquisition. Some staff members were upset. TL's sponsor, the TLAF guy, said they did "EVERYTHING we could" to stop HuK being acquired by EG, but they couldn't do it. There was no bad blood in the sense that everybody on TL hates HuK or anything stupid like that, but it definitely was a straight-up cold buy-out.
The Puma affair had an extremely similar vibe back at the time. We now can think about it differently, but the drama at the time has done its work to build up EG's corporate mastermind image.
So I dunno what you guys don't get. This isn't even up for debate; EG has this image, plain and simple. No amount of calling people fanboys will change that, and I don't even really get why you care. They're mercenaries and that's kinda cool too. Whatever.
I don't like EG because it seems like the only thing they really care about is fame. They buyout players whole show strong results or are very popular. However, they don't invest in infrastructure. They don't get coaches or strong supporting staff. Why would they? The community won't see that. It won't get them exposure.
Every player TL has bought improved tremendously. HuK, Sheth and Hero are showing much better results.
Puzzle has become an undesputable S class player since he moved to slayers.
On February 07 2012 01:38 Venomsflame wrote: This also doesn't even come close to changing my opinion that EG is a better team than TL. 3 Bo1s is silly, never liked this kind of format.
This is just step one. Long before the year is out, you will see true. 2012 year of Liquid.
Tyler changed his name back?
woooooahhhhhh
Hello where have you been these last days? =) :D
Something such as this should have had a front page article written for it! I guess I somehow missed it.
Or even in the Liquid news since that's where I look most of the time >.<
Agreed. The spirit of the Nony has returned to him. The enemies of Liquid shall tremble and despair.
On February 08 2012 00:37 Daigomi wrote: I just wanted to say that I love this format and the broadcast quality is excellent. I'm so tired of watching SC2 where everything is super safe: Bo3/Bo5 double elimination tournaments, Bo7 series where every match is a Bo3, or just plain Bo9 matches. Matches like these bring awesome excitement because every game counts. Also, a SC2 broadcast doesn't have to be 4 hours long. With this format, broadcasts should be between 1-2 hours which I think is a nice comfortable duration.
I disagree. Bo1 is a poor, poor format. It means a player can cheese/all-in and maybe snatch a win when they don't really deserve it - it's not entertaining to watch, and it isn't in the "spirit" of the game.
For team leagues, an ideal format would be to have best of 3 for each match up, and have two games on simultaneously, so people could choose what to watch. Alternatively, you could have two games for each match up, then if the score is tied have a best of 3 ace match.
On February 08 2012 00:37 Daigomi wrote: I just wanted to say that I love this format and the broadcast quality is excellent. I'm so tired of watching SC2 where everything is super safe: Bo3/Bo5 double elimination tournaments, Bo7 series where every match is a Bo3, or just plain Bo9 matches. Matches like these bring awesome excitement because every game counts. Also, a SC2 broadcast doesn't have to be 4 hours long. With this format, broadcasts should be between 1-2 hours which I think is a nice comfortable duration.
I like the Bo1 format but I still prefer the GSTL format where you have to beat every member of the team. I guess I just think all kills are cool.
On February 07 2012 03:52 mastergriggy wrote: Man, that was one sided. I do wish the tournament used BO3s though, BO1s are just too short.
It's a Bo5...
Yeah I meant best of 3 for each round, but you'd still be wrong since the ace match is a best of three. So using your logic, it would actually be best of 7.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
edit: i sound dickish, so i am going to self-censor. congratulations team liquid on the win. although idra is my favorite player, liquid has always been my favorite team. hope you continue to succeed.
On February 08 2012 00:37 Daigomi wrote: I just wanted to say that I love this format and the broadcast quality is excellent. I'm so tired of watching SC2 where everything is super safe: Bo3/Bo5 double elimination tournaments, Bo7 series where every match is a Bo3, or just plain Bo9 matches. Matches like these bring awesome excitement because every game counts. Also, a SC2 broadcast doesn't have to be 4 hours long. With this format, broadcasts should be between 1-2 hours which I think is a nice comfortable duration.
I disagree. Bo1 is a poor, poor format. It means a player can cheese/all-in and maybe snatch a win when they don't really deserve it - it's not entertaining to watch, and it isn't in the "spirit" of the game.
For team leagues, an ideal format would be to have best of 3 for each match up, and have two games on simultaneously, so people could choose what to watch. Alternatively, you could have two games for each match up, then if the score is tied have a best of 3 ace match.
I'm sorry, but you'll have to support your opinions a bit more. Since when is cheese not entertaining to watch and not in the "spirit of the game"? Some of the most famous and entertaining SC games were cheeses. Also, I think we might have very different opinions on what is exciting. Having the best player "guaranteed" to win is the opposite of excitement for me. What makes SC exciting is not knowing who will win and watching both players do everything they can to win.
I agree with you that the better team should win most of the time, that's why the format is a Bo5 and not simply a Bo1 between the two best players. However, the underdog should also have a chance of causing an upset. It's not like the best team doesn't have a great chance of beating the weaker team in a Bo5. If we assume each player in the best team has a 70% chance of beating their opponent from the weaker team, the best team will win 5 out of every 6 matches (83.7% to be precise), which, given the difference in strength between the teams, is fair. If you change that to a Bo5xBo3, the odds increase to 13 out of every 14 matches (92.9%), which means the weaker team almost never wins. To add to this, the tournament is a round robin which means that a single loss doesn't even matter that much.
I honestly don't understand the amount of conservatism by SC2 tournament organizers. MSL and OSL were Bo1 double elimination groups or Bo1 round robin groups up to the Ro16. Added to that, the tournaments were only hosted once every 3 months, so a single result was much more significant than it is in SC2. Even with all this, the tournaments were consistently won by the top players. Why do we need to have a Bo3 double elimination or Bo3 round robin from the Ro64 in SC2? Does the community really think that if we make the earlier rounds Bo1 double elimination BitbyBit.Prime will end up winning a GSL? All it does is make the tournaments more predictable and decrease the value of prepared builds.
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
Care to explain? Provide an argument perhaps?
Rivalries are good for hype, and hype is good for the industry. That's all I'm saying.
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
If anything describes misguided passion, that post does. -_-
My thoughts exactly. Can't be bothered to answer though. Especially since his answer was totally off the point I developped in my post, which had little to nothing to do with perception or image, but business model.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
This from the Liquid Team News:
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
Like I said in my previous post. I think Good, well-intended rivalry is good for Esports. A real bitter rivalry with a penchant for self-destruction in not.
I think what we are seeing here is more a bad rivalry than a good one. But who am I to know? I really hope I'm wrong.
On February 07 2012 21:14 Hydroxyl wrote: There's a big problem of understanding and people are fighting pointlessly on semantics over here - we're not debating if EG pays or not his progamers, that's a retarded comment made to sink the point of the critic summed up under the word "mercenaries" that someone totally interested, that I will not name, brought here like the hellenic gods brought Pandora to the men: to see them fail.
Now let me if you allow me recentrate the debate, we're neither advocating EG to not pay their progamers, nor that in other teams, progamers join for other reasons than money, no, that's assumed and known. And not the problem we're talking about here.
The problem, as someone started to point out earlier doesn't stand from the point of view of the player, we don't mind if he plays for the money or the "team spirit"; that's not our business and doesn't matter on the topic.
The problem relies on the teams, and what they do with the money they get from the exposure of their high-paid progamers. Yes, the problem and critics goes to teams that say "Fuck this business, fuck esport, I don't want it to grow, I'm not going to develop the scene, I'm going to take in my pocket as much money as I can while it lasts (not long because of my business behavior, but there will be other businesses to tune in after to sustain myself so I don't care), I'm going to buy my talents (which is ok on the first hand) and with the exposure I get from them, I'm not going to invest into develop new talents and let the scene die from the stranghold I put on it (which is what we're talking about here). It's business models supported by structures policy that we criticize here.
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
And it's not true that there's no other way of doing around, if they're not the only ones to do the same, some structures take the effort and money to invest in the scene that feeds them, and while it might be risky or long sighted, it is working and rewarding, for everybody, like Take investing in homestory cup instead of just buying out korean talents for his team, or Millenium growing french esports and getting what they deserve for it, world-class talents (Stephano was on Millenium since his early times of warcraft 3, and now is competing with the best, but other actors from Millenium are now getting professionnal contracts after a long effort of developping the scene itself). I don't say those teams won't get to the point of paying internationnal players, they all do and it's great, but they don't forget to give back to the hand that feed.
It applies to teams, but to events too, like Carmac said there's two kind of event organizators out there, the ones that don't care about developping the scene and make cheap invitationnal format to get the money here and now, and leave when the progammers they constantly fed retire, and the ones that understand that, for esport to grow and developp further than a bubble lasting a few years, you have to hold qualifiers and hold the flak for not having "celebrities", while those said celebrities got eliminated in said qualifiers.
Lol. Sorry man but I gotta say it:
What the fuck?
I read your post and I can see that you're very passionate about this... But I think your passion is SEVERELY misguided. Sure EG are the proverbial bad guys, but they ROCK that image. That image HELPS them develop e-sports because it adds to their players personality. I LOVE to fucking DESPISE IdrA, and my heart is still scarred from where HuK tore it, and that's FANTASTIC. The TL- EG rivalry!? Puma vs Hero!? It's all SO GOOD for e-sports.
Like I said in my previous post. I think Good, well-intended rivalry is good for Esports. A real bitter rivalry with a penchant for self-destruction in not.
I think what we are seeing here is more a bad rivalry than a good one. But who am I to know? I really hope I'm wrong.
First of all thanks for answering in a civilized manner with an actual point. I'm pretty disappointed in Hydroxyl for continuing the trend of "I disagree, but I won't tell you why". Maybe his detailed post was just a fluke.
Anyways I agree, it all depends on if the rivalry is damaging or not. I mean, IdrA and HuK's rivalry was not "well intentioned", so I disagree that that is the operative term, but it was one of the most exciting things in the e-sports scene. Hell, I'd go on to say that "rivalry" is good, but a genuine feud is what we're all afraid of. Personally, I don't see that happening with most of these teams... MAYBE TSL, but honestly I can't claim to actually know hardly anything about Coach Lee's practices, but my hypothesis based on observation would say that he's kind of a guy to watch out for in e-sports.
Now, on to Hydroxyl because apparently I need to spell this out more clearly. That's understandable so I shall comply.
The part where I really start to disagree is here:
When you see EG offering a contract to JYP, it's all good it means more exposure to EG, thus to the american scene since it's an americant team and EG is going to send JYP to all american events, and it is good for EG and the scene. But when you see EG not supporting anymore one the already few north american progamers, Axslav, despite the return on investment they will get from acquiring JYP, sign of what I hope to be their healthy economy and not their illusions of grandeur, even when Axslav is producing results and is improving (sign of better exposure to come), then the alarm is ringing, and you see pros writting desastrous blogs and tomatoes flying from fans hands: they all are ashamed of such attitude and ungratefulness from EG to the hands that are currently feeding them.
Now, I may be misunderstanding you because you have two massive run on sentences. But if I break it down, you first say it's good Exposure to EG, which is true. However, you completely neglect to mention that it is also good exposure for JYP. It's huge for that guy! This is the moment his fame really starts to take off! Not only that, but if more people see Koreans and Foreigners playing together this notion that this fucking e-sports apartheid should exist will slowly fade.
You claim to be discussing their business model which seems perfectly fine to me: Buy good players, make money. That's going to work out for them. Where are all these pros that are criticizing EG's business model? If I am understanding you correctly it's their business ethics that you disagree with, and again, I believe that their business ethics create rivalry which is good for the scene.
Not only that, but (again, if I'm reading your poorly articulated words correctly), you uphold Stephano and Millenium as an example of a GOOD business model? There is pretty much NO difference between the Millenium-Sephano-Complexity drama and the EG-Puma-TSL drama. Or are you saying that EG's business model is poor because they invest less in player development than other teams? If so, what you're saying is that if a player underpreforms they should still get paid? How is that a good business model? Again, it's about ethics, and my post was about ethics. EG doesn't just develop skill, (which they do, hence the team house, and now moving in with slayers), they develop each player's media image, and I think that helps the scene just as much as player development. They've got their "good guy" (incontrol), their "e-sports bad boy" IdrA, and (once again) the rivalries that they allow their players to have which we (the spectators) can all get excited about.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
Dude, that scares the shit out of you? Maybe it's time to worry about more important things. That's the business of any sport.
On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote: TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
Hmm, it seems like English is your second language, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that
1) The stuff you quoted it really playful in tone. There's no reason to believe that the rivalry is really "bitter". Although even if it were,
2) There's no way the rivalry's a bad thing.
I'm not sure what you're so afraid of...? Do you dislike conflict, or...?
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
lol how old are you, do you really not see that this is just the typical way to hype an article up? Do you really think that TL thinks of themselves as defender of all things good and bright in the world? LOL
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:
On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:
On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:
On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote:
On February 06 2012 14:44 Mohdoo wrote: Team spirit > Mercenaries. Always a great thing to see ^_^
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
This from the Liquid Team News:
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
lol how old are you, do you really not see that this is just the typical way to hype an article up? Do you really think that TL thinks of themselves as defender of all things good and bright in the world? LOL
First, age is no indication of intelligence (hence you wrote this) or reason.
You can hype, ok, I understand that. I don't think TL holds thenselves as defenders of all things good, I never said that, you should study reading comprehension a little. But I do think it is possible for then to hold a grudge against another team. And it is possible for then to use their influence to damage said team.
That is what I said I was afraid of, never said they held themselves to higher moral standards (even Jinro said so).
On February 08 2012 03:42 Jotoco wrote: TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
This from the Liquid Team News:
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
Hmm, it seems like English is your second language, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that
1) The stuff you quoted it really playful in tone. There's no reason to believe that the rivalry is really "bitter". Although even if it were,
2) There's no way the rivalry's a bad thing.
I'm not sure what you're so afraid of...? Do you dislike conflict, or...?
1) I know it could be in jest, but still, Jinro's posts here and past tensions, like lack of support of EG's events, (or more aggressively, effectively damaging EG's tournaments in this forum before: see original very old EGMCSL thread), Huk's aquisition and others can lead me to believe that there are "hurt feelings".
2) Yes there is. When there is so little good-will, audience and money in Esports everything that is taken away is missed badly. Lack of TL.net support for any event, player, tournament or team can spell doom for it, and we don't want EG's money being spent elsewhere, do we?
If they think that throwing money in SC2 is bad for their sponsors like labeling the team, as well as the sponsors as "mercenaries" for example, they will withdraw their support and the world of Esports will be that much poorer. I don't think we want that.
-------------------------------------------------
I'm trying to be civil and to as clear as possible here, some people, like the one a few posts above that can't understand the figure of speech: "Scare the shit out of me" should not reply to me, as they won't get a reply back.
Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
I will take your word on that, Nony.
If there really is no hard feelings, I would like to ask you to share this with a lot of the fan base in TL forums, seriously. It gets out of hand worse than 4chan.
I really like you, and I want you to keep chewing Strider and being awesome.
On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
I will take your word on that, Nony.
If there really is no hard feelings, I would like to ask you to share this with a lot of the fan base in TL forums, seriously. It gets out of hand worse than 4chan.
I really like you, and I want you to keep chewing Strider and being awesome.
I can't believe you're falling for Nony's lies. Ofc he's going to pretend like the two teams are all lovey-dovey. It's part of his (and TL's) goody-goody image. The truth is darker and lies between the lines where only the cleverest of readers can find it.
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
The Following PREVIEW has been Approved for ALL AUDIENCES by the Motion Picture Association of America
NARRATOR: In a world where korean mercenaries dominate the field of Starcraft. Westerners had but one hope... one man...
(Screen fades to black)
(Angelic choir music starts playing)
NARRATOR: HuK!
(80s style sports montage where HuK owns korean face on the ladder)
NARRATOR: Every team wanted him and they offered him more and more riches beyond wildest dreams, trying to outbid each other. Every team --- but Team Liquid, who spend all their money running an orphanage and making soup for the homeless.
(Overview of a press room with huk standing behind a lectern packed with microphones)
NARRATOR: When the day finally came when HuK had to choose a team, to everyones surprise HuK announced that he was joining Team Liquid.
STARCRAFT REPORTER (Artosis): Why did you join Team Liquid instead of for example Evil Geniuses. They even have a pro house mansion for gods sake!
(Close zoom on HuKs face)
HUK: Because they offered me more than just money --- they offered a home.
NARRATOR: Coming this summer: Team Liquid - The knights in shining +3 Armor. Rated PG-13.
On February 07 2012 19:01 Sated wrote:
On February 07 2012 18:31 suejak wrote:
On February 07 2012 15:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On February 06 2012 18:29 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 06 2012 17:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On February 06 2012 16:52 IdrA wrote:
On February 06 2012 16:43 NET wrote: [quote]
That's pretty funny, never thought of it that way.
They were fun games to watch! I'm happy for the winners though.
yaaaaa cuz liquid doesnt pay zenio and hero anything. they joined cuz theyre big liquid fans. imbeciles
Not that I agree with the whole 'lol mercenaries' stuff, but the story behind both HerO's and Zenio's joining is a bit different than the usual 'See talent, throw money at it'.
That's not to say that I think we are 'above' doing that or anything.
need money first... =|
How do you think we got Huk the first time around...?
Yo man, I know you're trying to be "adult" about all this, but Liquid would do well to protect its Knight in Shining Armour image...
Yeah, you bought HuK from Millennium. But he definitely had tenuous ties to the team and you offered a lot more than just money -- you offered a home.
If you've been watching EG's streamed training sessions, you'd know that EG aren't a bunch of isolated mercenaries who play on their own sitting on chairs made out of money. This "offered a home" stuff is incredibly overplayed.
Both these quotes are correct.
TL is NOT the knight in shinning armor, and I don't know why TL (as a Team/Group) seem to be trying to demonise EG. I think they lost too many fans (and Huk) and are bitter, trying to get revenge using this forum for it.
There is more than just a pun against the "Evil" in EG's team name. I just don't know why, but this is what I'm seeing.
This from the Liquid Team News:
Against EG, there's more. Quite a bit more. As a defender of all things good and bright in the world, it's natural that Liquid` should be opposed to the Evil Geniueses. But after multiple HerO vs PuMa finals, the acquisition of HuK, and serveral high-stakes meetings in clanwars, there's no excuses here. EG must be defeated.
This seems so much more than celebration and drama. This seems, to me, real bitterness. And I think this is terrible for esports. Unlike Mouz/EG rivalry which was pretty obviously well-intended and good-spirited.
All that and quotes from Jinro, for example, lead me to believe that there is much more we don't know about, and it scares the shit out of me.
lol how old are you, do you really not see that this is just the typical way to hype an article up? Do you really think that TL thinks of themselves as defender of all things good and bright in the world? LOL
First, age is no indication of intelligence (hence you wrote this) or reason.
You can hype, ok, I understand that. I don't think TL holds thenselves as defenders of all things good, I never said that, you should study reading comprehension a little. But I do think it is possible for then to hold a grudge against another team. And it is possible for then to use their influence to damage said team.
That is what I said I was afraid of, never said they held themselves to higher moral standards (even Jinro said so).
1) Well I didnt want to be rude by just asking you if youre stupid 2) You are obviously the one lacking reading comprehension, since you draw the conclusion out of a hype post that there was "real bitterness"
Thankfully Nony made a nice statement, and I dont really get what you want out of your request of him to "share" what he posted, because people who have followed the scene know that him and idra for example are friends. Ask TLO what he thinks of Idra and he'll say that he respects him a lot. Ret is known for having good connections to the whole American crew, idra, machine, lzgamer, incontrol etc. people like Sheth arent gonna badmouth anyone anyways ^^ And I'm sure all TL players still love huk so...
On February 08 2012 08:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: Guys, Liquid didn't invent "EG people are the bad guys." Their team name is Evil Geniuses! It's their thing. It's not a serious thing, it's just the role they play. A rivalry has developed. And so it's natural for us to be the "good guys." We've got some players famous for their good manners (sheth, haypro and jinro), and they've got players famous for mouthing off (idra and huk). That just reinforces it. It's a storyline. It's not a real serious actual thing. It's for fun. It's been said a million times that there are a ton of great friendships between players on Liquid and EG and there's constant evidence for anyone who is paying attention. But at the same time, we're fiercely competitive. No hard feelings.
The very LAST thing Liquid would want is for EG to die. We want them to be awesome and we also want to be better than them.
And if there is some serious concern about EG's "bad guys" notoriety and their ability to get sponsors, then WTF? EG is (by far?) the most sponsored team. Half of every EG player's interview is listing sponsors. They are amazing at getting sponsors and they're also amazing at keeping sponsors. Fucking Kingston Hyper X made some really awesome commercials playing into IdrA's bad boy attitude. It HELPS them get sponsors.
So I love to see the trash talk and people getting passionate about the rivalry but I don't like seeing people get all serious about it. At least not in live report threads. Live report threads are for on-the-spot analysis, a bit of post-game analysis, and FUN. If you have any feeling that you and the people you are talking to in your posts aren't having fun, then rethink your participation on this forum (at least in these threads -- there are some legitimate serious business threads in SC2 General).
If you don't have an opinion, or just don't give a fuck. Chew No..errr.. Stride Gum.
Good points Tyler, emphasis needs to be directed to the friendships between the people and FRIENDLY rivalry. We don't need to be hate soldiers here, we're all part of the community, civility goes a long way.
EPT
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PuMa
JYP![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/us.png)
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Shall be an interesting fight with almost the complete star lineups of both teams.
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