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On January 27 2012 12:03 Hakkesshu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 11:58 songohan wrote:
imagine if idra cursed when he lost and they didndt want to show us the replay because of that. this is just a thought, don't take it seriously. Haha. That could be true. What are the chances that Leenock computer crashes after a win and Idra not having the replay? Some one mentioned that yesterday Idra told Polt to go F himself after a 0-3 loss. Not surprising...
I do find it weird that Idra didn't have the replay, but I highly doubt they would not show it due to that. It hasn't stopped other organizations before, and if anything it would probably attract more attention. Hell, NASL continued to show the replay of when Naniwa dissed them before leaving.
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On January 27 2012 12:14 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 12:02 Dexington wrote:On January 27 2012 11:59 FauvFauv wrote:
wow nasl... just wow... Because it's their fault? It's their fault for announcing it at the very end of the cast and then quickly ending the stream. Why couldn't they announce it at the beginning of the cast? People will still be pissed, but if there are people waiting for the IdrA/Leenock game they will know that it won't be shown. Honestly I don't know if NASL is bad or just really really unlucky. Their ideas seem great but the execution isn't really as great.
You're aware that saying that game even had to be played would be saying that there wasn't a sweep?
I guess they could get around that by putting that match first.
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On January 27 2012 12:33 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 12:14 Corrosive wrote:On January 27 2012 12:02 Dexington wrote:On January 27 2012 11:59 FauvFauv wrote:
wow nasl... just wow... Because it's their fault? It's their fault for announcing it at the very end of the cast and then quickly ending the stream. Why couldn't they announce it at the beginning of the cast? People will still be pissed, but if there are people waiting for the IdrA/Leenock game they will know that it won't be shown. Honestly I don't know if NASL is bad or just really really unlucky. Their ideas seem great but the execution isn't really as great. You're aware that saying that game even had to be played would be saying that there wasn't a sweep? I guess they could get around that by putting that match first.
Bingo. They just played the viewer card and it's going to bite them in the ass when people just don't tune in to begin with because they aren't upfront about shit like this.
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On January 27 2012 12:04 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 11:59 bennyaus wrote:
Everything went as predicted if you went on recent results. This couldn't have been a more predictable result, and the only question mark I had was the PvP because it is PvP and Choya is quite good despite not being in GSL at the moment. I sincerely think Puma's TvZ is better than Lucky's ZvT, and that game didn't do anything to change my mind.
That was definitely the closest of them all, but Lucky has to be one of the most underrated players going around (same with asd and Gumiho, actually) and the fact he was Code S and Puma can't even break into Code A says it all for me.
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On January 27 2012 10:35 The Final Boss wrote: PuMa <  Lucky+ Show Spoiler +PuMa and Lucky are both pretty even at this match-up, but Bel'Shir Beach is a good map for Zerg. As long as Lucky watches for that 2 Rax that a lot of players like on this map, he should be able to win.  JYP > Choya+ Show Spoiler +PvP on Tal'Darim Altar means 4 Gate vs 4 Gate. The lack of deviation on this map makes me think that it either comes down to skill or luck. JYP is the better player. Choya could win, he's a great player, but it seems highly unlikely. < asd+ Show Spoiler +DeMuslim is good, but asd has great TvT. DeMuslim's TvT isn't as good, so I wouldn't really expect to see him win. Also, his performance against Beastyqt last week was really disappointing. I just don't think that he has what it takes to take down a player as good as asd. < Leenock+ Show Spoiler +Both of these players are really good at the match-up, but Leenock has a better understanding of the game. IdrA is a great player, but Leenock is a Code S level Zerg with fantastic ZvZ. Other than maybe NesTea, DRG, or Zenio, I'm not sure that there are a lot of Zergs with better ZvZ than Leenock, so I definitely think that he should take this.
EDIT: Idra fanboys are wrong, Leenock will win. 3-1 FXO Way too many mirror match-ups TT I wish that we could get more deviation in the matches. The Tal'Darim Altar one is not that surprising, as it's a good map for Protoss and if you're confident in your Protoss player's ability then he can win a PvP there. The rest of these maps feel like they're not explored enough to really make a definitive choice of which race is "best," so I guess these mirrors are just luck. EDIT: I'm surprised to see Choya playing over Oz. Maybe that's just because Oz is busy, but I think that FXO would have a way better shot if Oz were playing. I feel like Choya as the coach already is busy too though, so it seems odd.
Called it ^^
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Not suprised. Kinda of disapointed in Puma but meh.
Wonder if Huk instead of Demu could have made the difference.
(I would assume ace would be JYP vs Leenock/Lucky, and I could honestly see JYP beating either of them)
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This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well
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I feel bad about the NASL. Having to compete in the same time-slot as the IPL TAC2, they are just going to be driven out. IPL has the better quality production and the top Korean teams in their tournament, as well as a larger prize pool and more hype. The NASL should not be trying to butt heads with IPL right now.
They do not really have much choice, but it is unfortunate that they have to broadcast while IPL and the day9 daily are on.
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On January 27 2012 13:06 s4life wrote:
This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well
The mirror matches can't be helped, that's kind of inadvertent (other than the consistent PvP on TDA, but that's because it's a good choice for Protoss). Personally I love this format because it's the only one like Proleague and frankly there's a lot more strategy involved than the plethora of all-kill format leagues. I think that making it a Bo7 with the 7th set being an ace might be better, but I think that would put a lot of strain on some teams to even field six players. For a team like FXO (Lucky, Leenock, asd, Oz, Choya, GuMiho, etc.), but for teams like Mouz (who only has six players on their entire roster) it might be difficult to actually get all six in. I think that this format is fine, though I would like to see less mirrors...
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On January 27 2012 12:44 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 10:35 The Final Boss wrote:PuMa < Lucky+ Show Spoiler +PuMa and Lucky are both pretty even at this match-up, but Bel'Shir Beach is a good map for Zerg. As long as Lucky watches for that 2 Rax that a lot of players like on this map, he should be able to win. > Choya+ Show Spoiler +PvP on Tal'Darim Altar means 4 Gate vs 4 Gate. The lack of deviation on this map makes me think that it either comes down to skill or luck. JYP is the better player. Choya could win, he's a great player, but it seems highly unlikely. < asd+ Show Spoiler +DeMuslim is good, but asd has great TvT. DeMuslim's TvT isn't as good, so I wouldn't really expect to see him win. Also, his performance against Beastyqt last week was really disappointing. I just don't think that he has what it takes to take down a player as good as asd. < Leenock+ Show Spoiler +Both of these players are really good at the match-up, but Leenock has a better understanding of the game. IdrA is a great player, but Leenock is a Code S level Zerg with fantastic ZvZ. Other than maybe NesTea, DRG, or Zenio, I'm not sure that there are a lot of Zergs with better ZvZ than Leenock, so I definitely think that he should take this.
EDIT: Idra fanboys are wrong, Leenock will win. 3-1 FXO Way too many mirror match-ups TT I wish that we could get more deviation in the matches. The Tal'Darim Altar one is not that surprising, as it's a good map for Protoss and if you're confident in your Protoss player's ability then he can win a PvP there. The rest of these maps feel like they're not explored enough to really make a definitive choice of which race is "best," so I guess these mirrors are just luck. EDIT: I'm surprised to see Choya playing over Oz. Maybe that's just because Oz is busy, but I think that FXO would have a way better shot if Oz were playing. I feel like Choya as the coach already is busy too though, so it seems odd. Called it ^^
I think everyone called that...
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On January 27 2012 13:20 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 13:06 s4life wrote:
This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well The mirror matches can't be helped, that's kind of inadvertent (other than the consistent PvP on TDA, but that's because it's a good choice for Protoss). ... I think that this format is fine, though I would like to see less mirrors...
Incorrect. The format precipitates the mirror match ups. Both teams get the map list and then choose who to play on what map without knowing who the other team is going to pick. If maps have a perceived bias by the bulk of the teams that bias is going to usually result in a Mirror MU.
Edit: Grammar.
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On January 27 2012 13:20 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 13:06 s4life wrote:
This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well The mirror matches can't be helped, that's kind of inadvertent (other than the consistent PvP on TDA, but that's because it's a good choice for Protoss). Personally I love this format because it's the only one like Proleague and frankly there's a lot more strategy involved than the plethora of all-kill format leagues. I think that making it a Bo7 with the 7th set being an ace might be better, but I think that would put a lot of strain on some teams to even field six players. For a team like FXO (Lucky, Leenock, asd, Oz, Choya, GuMiho, etc.), but for teams like Mouz (who only has six players on their entire roster) it might be difficult to actually get all six in. I think that this format is fine, though I would like to see less mirrors...
The prevalence of mirrors is a result of the format. When you know the map but don't know the opponent, the best odds are to put out a player of the race that does well on that map (worst case you get the mirror, best case you get a favourable matchup). Both teams do this and you get a mirror. There's the possibility of metagaming (eg putting out a Terran on a Zerg-favoured map just because you know he's good at beating the opposing team's best Zerg) but it doesn't seem to be the norm.
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On January 27 2012 13:28 JustARogue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 13:20 The Final Boss wrote:On January 27 2012 13:06 s4life wrote:
This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well The mirror matches can't be helped, that's kind of inadvertent (other than the consistent PvP on TDA, but that's because it's a good choice for Protoss). ... I think that this format is fine, though I would like to see less mirrors... Incorrect. The format precipitates the mirror match ups. Both teams get the map list and then choose who to play on what map without knowing who the other team is going to pick. If maps have a perceived bias by the bulk of the teams that bias is going to usually result in a Mirror MU. Edit: Grammar.
Except that they get the map list and then you have to choose who goes out where. Sure, one map might favor a race, but if you can expect them to play a certain race there, you can put out a sniper. Also, on maps like TDA, Zerg is good against Terran, but Protoss is good against Zerg. Therefore, you can play a Z if you expect a T, but if you go Z and they go P, then you could be in trouble. That's the beauty of this format. Sniping is a real strategy as opposed to in all-kill format where it generally comes down to who has the better last man standing (which is a lot less team oriented). It means that the team has to make a lot more strategical decisions as opposed to all-kill format.
Plus a lot of maps don't have real definitive "best races." Yes there are some (such as TDA) but in a lot of ways maps aren't nearly as defined as maps in Brood War. There are maps that favor one race, but look at TPW Artifice. I honestly doubt that EG and FXO both came to the conclusion that Artifice was a Terran favored map because neither probably has much experience playing on it (also from what I've seen of it it doesn't really stick out as being Terran favored). Then you have Antiga. Now I don't know about you, but ZvT is a nightmare on Antiga and ZvP can be really tough too. Yet both teams decided to send out Zergs.
They use this style for PL, but we don't always see mirrors. And frankly, the maps in BW are a lot more defined as far as which race is good where and in what match-up. So if it can work there, it can definitely work in SC2.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that this format does not really cause mirror match-ups but rather this was just a coincidence.
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On January 27 2012 13:28 JustARogue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 13:20 The Final Boss wrote:On January 27 2012 13:06 s4life wrote:
This format kinda sucks.. mirror matches, Bo5.. ah well The mirror matches can't be helped, that's kind of inadvertent (other than the consistent PvP on TDA, but that's because it's a good choice for Protoss). ... I think that this format is fine, though I would like to see less mirrors... Incorrect. The format precipitates the mirror match ups. Both teams get the map list and then choose who to play on what map without knowing who the other team is going to pick. If maps have a perceived bias by the bulk of the teams that bias is going to usually result in a Mirror MU. Edit: Grammar.
false.
There will always be mirrior matches, but good coaches should look at it like this. Protoss will be put on TD so im going to put our protoss killer for the snipe.
^^Edit, beat me to it.
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Well, in your taldarim example, you just put a P to be good against everyone. That's what happened here. I don't think foreign coaches think about this, in fact I'm pretty sure they don't even have a coach so it's the players who choose their maps sadly.
This format in PL, live, with experienced coaches works well (but still produce a good amount of mirrors, even tho sniping and Xth level thinking happens very often), but here, I'm not even sure the matches are played in order, or even played the same day, and I don't think there is any strategic coaching behind the lineup.
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On the international TLPD, Antiga has a 60% winrate for ZvT and a 69% winrate for ZvP. Tal'Darim is 52% PvZ and 54% PvT. I think it's safe to say that both teams just played the numbers there. Bel'Shir is historically Zerg-favoured but I'm guessing that EG figured that PuMa would just win anyway. edit: also EG's next-best Zerg is Machine.
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On January 27 2012 11:58 Al Bundy wrote:
What a failure... That match was the only one I was looking forward to. Talk about waste of time.
Thanks NASL for not announcing this issue beforehand.
not really surprised since they did this all the time in regular season with really hyped up matches saved last and don't announce anything even though the game wasn't played so they would keep viewers. really scumbag thing to do
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I think you guys are over thinking things.
Heres generally how online team leagues go due to scheduling and time constraints..
<Who is the competition> <Good or bad? who are likely players?>
<Pick 4 players who can beat the likely players>
<ask 4 players what map they want>
<play>
Map strategy on online tournaments isnt really applicable because of the timings etc. It basically comes down to the players deciding what map they want to play. At least in FXO's case.
If the match was a final, we would strategise accordingly what strat on what map and whats the map stats. How we can lose that map vs what watch up etc etcetc ... I am quite sure other teams are doing the same thing.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
how did demu fare against asd?
was the game any good?
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EPT
