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Contrary to popular belief Stephano is not from the States, any mindless spam asserting otherwise after this time (19:48 KST/ 5:48 AM EST/ 10:48 GMT) will meet a moderator response. We have enough confusing spam posting in LR threads these days. Lets try to keep the love for everyone's favourite French zerg reasonable.
And as always:
- No player bashing.
- No caster bashing.
- No balance whining.
Enjoy the games. |
On December 12 2011 22:13 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:10 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On December 12 2011 21:51 Reasonable wrote:On December 12 2011 21:30 alpsi wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 sitromit wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. And how does the fact that MC actually played Stephano and BEAT him factor into your logic?? cam down he's trolling lol I'm not trolling at all. That fact that you think I'm trolling is because there are two mathematically equal solutions to this result, and the one that is given the preference is more intuitive. I'm not a big fan of Stephano, but I respect him as a player and to invite someone to such tournament and fly him all the way to Korea and to rate by a controversial scale is rather disrespectful at least. Here is something who hasn't slept through inequalities on algebra: let M=MC, S=Stephano, D=DRG M>S S>D } -> (S>D>M or M>S) = (S>M or M>S) D>M I really don't see how advancement in such tournament should be based on an implication that one match result is preferred to the other. It is the first time I encounter this in sports, maybe this is a common practice somewhere. I'm sorry if I offended any MC fans with this, but I think it is just to complain about this tournament system considering the scale of the Blizzard cup solved for you. D 3-2 M 2-2 S 2-2 M > S His point is that the results say M > S as well as S > D > M, which are completely contradictory. Why should we favour one over the other? Tournaments are strictly about overall performance in that a better score regardless of who you face determines how far you go. To suddenly dispense of this in the case of ties makes absolutely no sense, especially when your choice is essentially arbitrary.
What you have said makes no sense at all. You admit that it is all about overall performance so why are you looking at DRG when you are trying to figure out a tie breaker. He is 3-1 and top of the group and should not be involved in the discussion at all.
In your argument why are you not focusing on MVP and saying MC>S>DRG>MVP. Therefore MVP shouldn't go through because he lost to DRG...
Or MVP>MC>S>DRG...
When you are looking to split a tie, you only look at the players involved, not in someone else that they both played.
If results were transitive like you suggest groups would go on almost forever. You would only knock out Hero and then have to replay the rest of the group because you can always make the argument that one player is better than the everyone else.
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On December 12 2011 22:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The only foreigner vs. korean win today was a ZvZ lol.
I honestly didn't expect DRG to be that high on top, but I'm never surprised to see koreans rolling foreigners. It's a pity that Stephano and Hero couldn't give them a run for their money!
Since when is Hero a foreigner?
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Predicting MMA, Leenock, and NesTea advancing tonight.
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On December 12 2011 22:34 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The only foreigner vs. korean win today was a ZvZ lol.
I honestly didn't expect DRG to be that high on top, but I'm never surprised to see koreans rolling foreigners. It's a pity that Stephano and Hero couldn't give them a run for their money! Since when is Hero a foreigner?
Please, no.
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On December 12 2011 22:32 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:31 Linwelin wrote:On December 12 2011 22:27 pdd wrote:On December 12 2011 22:26 HappyChris wrote:On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god zzzzzzzzzz Did you even watch the games? Trolls will be trolls. I didn't even watch the game, but going 2-2 in a group consisting of MVP, MC, Hero and DongRaeGu and only missing out because he lost head-to-head is no small feat. Stephano deserves the hype. I'm not trolling at all. Stephano is obviously a good player and going 2-2 in such a group is no small feat. But he's not anywhere close to the very best players of the world... That's all I'm saying These guys at the Blizzard Cup are the very best players in the world ....
He qualified because he won IPL3, which again, is a very good result but without a huge amount of koreans. MVP or Nestea for example, qualified because they're doing great in the GSL which is by far the hardest tournament out there.
To repeat myself, Stephano is a very good player, probably the best foreign Zerg. But he's not as good as Nestea for example.
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Stephano did extremely well. Competing with theese guys and going 2-2 is nothing short of amazing. Cant wait to see if NaniWa will do as good. Or better ofcourse! :D
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On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god
Sure he's out, but hey at least he made it to blizz cup in the first place and took some wins off some top notch players. Fan boys will be fan boys and there will be plenty of hype for pretty much every player in blizz cup. So please, leave the sarcasm "Oh Stephano is out, what a suprise...Oh wait no" out of the discussion. I bet you didn't say the same thing about MVP and Nestea when they BOTH lost to Naniwa at MLG. But when Naniwa loses to Leenock people bash him or come up with excuses as to why nestea and mvp lost lol. A lot of people are a lot more critical on foreigners then they are the koreans and it's really annoying.
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On December 12 2011 22:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god Sure he's out, but hey at least he made it to blizz cup in the first place and took some wins off some top notch players. Fan boys will be fan boys and there will be plenty of hype for pretty much every player in blizz cup. So please, leave the sarcasm "Oh Stephano is out, what a suprise...Oh wait no" out of the discussion. I bet you didn't say the same thing about MVP and Nestea when they BOTH lost to Naniwa at MLG. But when Naniwa loses to Leenock people make bash him or come up with excuses as to why nestea and mvp lost lol. A lot of people are a lot more critical on foreigners then they are the koreans and it's really annoying.
That was surprisingly well written responce and I agree 100%. Even tho i'm a fanboy myself!
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On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god
You are far more annoying than any Stephano fanboy
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On December 12 2011 22:27 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:19 redviper wrote:On December 12 2011 22:13 quancer wrote:On December 12 2011 22:10 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On December 12 2011 21:51 Reasonable wrote:On December 12 2011 21:30 alpsi wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 sitromit wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. And how does the fact that MC actually played Stephano and BEAT him factor into your logic?? cam down he's trolling lol I'm not trolling at all. That fact that you think I'm trolling is because there are two mathematically equal solutions to this result, and the one that is given the preference is more intuitive. I'm not a big fan of Stephano, but I respect him as a player and to invite someone to such tournament and fly him all the way to Korea and to rate by a controversial scale is rather disrespectful at least. Here is something who hasn't slept through inequalities on algebra: let M=MC, S=Stephano, D=DRG M>S S>D } -> (S>D>M or M>S) = (S>M or M>S) D>M I really don't see how advancement in such tournament should be based on an implication that one match result is preferred to the other. It is the first time I encounter this in sports, maybe this is a common practice somewhere. I'm sorry if I offended any MC fans with this, but I think it is just to complain about this tournament system considering the scale of the Blizzard cup solved for you. D 3-2 M 2-2 S 2-2 M > S His point is that the results say M > S as well as S > D > M, which are completely contradictory. Why should we favour one over the other? Tournaments are strictly about overall performance in that a better score regardless of who you face determines how far you go. To suddenly dispense of this in the case of ties makes absolutely no sense, especially when your choice is essentially arbitrary. Tournaments are most certainly NOT about overall performance. Otherwise they would have a fully connected graph. There is an inherent localization in tournaments and this is clearly an evidence of that. MC beat Stephano is more localized than Stephano beat DRG beat MC. Its quite obvious and that is why everyone uses tie breakers. I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about the "fully connected graph" part. I would address that if you could clarify for me. This is the first time I've heard that A > B should be given more priority over B > C > A. Especially in Starcraft, where match-up prowess is such an important variable, this sort of thing leaves too much up to luck. Again, if you could help me understand your first point then perhaps I could form a better response.
If you want to see who is the best (overall performance) you should have everyone play everyone. That is a full connected graph. Every node is connected to every node.
Otherwise its just a different quantity of localization. You localize within groups, localize within sides of brackets, localize with head to heads. Thats all there is to it.
The conclusion ofcourse is that tournaments aren't about overall performance.
edit: seems the english expression would be complete graph. Perhaps thats clearer for you.
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On December 12 2011 22:39 b0rt_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god You are far more annoying than any Stephano fanboy
The way I said it wasn't the best, I agree.
I'm allowed to criticize a player though
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On December 12 2011 22:30 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:27 quancer wrote:On December 12 2011 22:19 redviper wrote:On December 12 2011 22:13 quancer wrote:On December 12 2011 22:10 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On December 12 2011 21:51 Reasonable wrote:On December 12 2011 21:30 alpsi wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 sitromit wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. And how does the fact that MC actually played Stephano and BEAT him factor into your logic?? cam down he's trolling lol I'm not trolling at all. That fact that you think I'm trolling is because there are two mathematically equal solutions to this result, and the one that is given the preference is more intuitive. I'm not a big fan of Stephano, but I respect him as a player and to invite someone to such tournament and fly him all the way to Korea and to rate by a controversial scale is rather disrespectful at least. Here is something who hasn't slept through inequalities on algebra: let M=MC, S=Stephano, D=DRG M>S S>D } -> (S>D>M or M>S) = (S>M or M>S) D>M I really don't see how advancement in such tournament should be based on an implication that one match result is preferred to the other. It is the first time I encounter this in sports, maybe this is a common practice somewhere. I'm sorry if I offended any MC fans with this, but I think it is just to complain about this tournament system considering the scale of the Blizzard cup solved for you. D 3-2 M 2-2 S 2-2 M > S His point is that the results say M > S as well as S > D > M, which are completely contradictory. Why should we favour one over the other? Tournaments are strictly about overall performance in that a better score regardless of who you face determines how far you go. To suddenly dispense of this in the case of ties makes absolutely no sense, especially when your choice is essentially arbitrary. Tournaments are most certainly NOT about overall performance. Otherwise they would have a fully connected graph. There is an inherent localization in tournaments and this is clearly an evidence of that. MC beat Stephano is more localized than Stephano beat DRG beat MC. Its quite obvious and that is why everyone uses tie breakers. I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about the "fully connected graph" part. I would address that if you could clarify for me. This is the first time I've heard that A > B should be given more priority over B > C > A. Especially in Starcraft, where match-up prowess is such an important variable, this sort of thing leaves too much up to luck. Again, if you could help me understand your first point then perhaps I could form a better response. What he is saying is that a Single Elimination tournament is even more unfair in your book, because direct encounters between players matter even more (highly "localized"). Only a full league system would meet your demands.
I'm sorry if this seems obtuse (it's very early where I am) but I do not see what single-elimination has to do with this. My demands are simply that *group play* requires tiebreakers because it's the least-arbitrary decider available that is feasible.
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Whether or not the format is flawed I find it really offensive that people are questioning MC's integrity on this. MC has never shown any indication of being the sort of player who would give less than than his best to every game. MC wanted to win, for his pride, for a better spot ( theoretically easier opponent) and because every single win makes him look better to sponsors, his team and in general.
Also I don't remember more than mild grumbling happening during the last up/down matches wherin Oz who was already through to code s had to play Yugioh last. If he won Keen stayed in code s but if he lost yugioh went through. Oz litterally had nothing riding on that game but pride but he tried and happened to fail and looked upset at the end of it. He wanted that perfect 4-0 run through the up/down even if it only really mattered to him.
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"Hey dude. I have a great idea ! We will choose the 10 best players in the whole world, and then we will only do bo1, and no tie break ! isnt that GREAT ?"
Seriously, Blizzard should be ashamed. I was so pumped about this tournament. But god, when i learn it would be bo1 ... what a shame ! That's totally retarded. I hope Blizzard will organize this tournament with MLG or DH next time, Gomtv shouldnt organize this kind of events.
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On December 12 2011 22:31 masakenji wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:26 HappyChris wrote:On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god zzzzzzzzzz Did you even watch the games? defended an all in by DRG. defeated an "unbeatable" HerO :D failed an all in against MC. told Khaldor he was doing it, cause MC style on that map would be hard for him lost to one of MVP many strong builds.
Wow...
So you can't really glean ANYTHING about Stephano during this tournament...
I mean... He beat a tilted HerO that's been going to too many competitions at the same time...
and he beat DRG because he defended an all in in a ZvZ... which is his worst straight up play match up?
Then he attempts to all in MC on a map he knows is hugely Zerg favored in a macro game in an attempt to out crazy whatever MC would do... the loses a game to normal pressure from MVP....
Stephano is good... but I don't think anything about his play was particularly conclusive... or eye opening... a pathetic performance in my opinion. He might have gone 2-2 but as for showing good games... it was pretty pathetic other than MC's holding his all in...
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On December 12 2011 22:41 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:39 b0rt_ wrote:On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god You are far more annoying than any Stephano fanboy The way I said it wasn't the best, I agree. I'm allowed to criticize a player though
you didnt criticize anything, you just went troll mode
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On December 12 2011 22:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god Sure he's out, but hey at least he made it to blizz cup in the first place and took some wins off some top notch players. Fan boys will be fan boys and there will be plenty of hype for pretty much every player in blizz cup. So please, leave the sarcasm "Oh Stephano is out, what a suprise...Oh wait no" out of the discussion. I bet you didn't say the same thing about MVP and Nestea when they BOTH lost to Naniwa at MLG. But when Naniwa loses to Leenock people bash him or come up with excuses as to why nestea and mvp lost lol. A lot of people are a lot more critical on foreigners then they are the koreans and it's really annoying.
I don't care about Stephano but you can't compare the two situations. MVP and Nestea have won a shit load. They don't need to prove themselves as the best in the world. Everyone knows they are the best in the world. Naniwa and Stephano have won foreign tourneys but they haven't won GSL and they have certainly not shown that they are in a league all their own. Since they have something to prove they are judged all the time, Nestea/MVP do not.
After MVP won GSL Jan there was a similar situation where he had to prove himself. After he won WC a lot of people still popah'd his accomplishments. He has already climbed this ladder (and so has Nestea who faced it right after GSL 2).
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To all that try to make a equation out of this. This is NOT math. If SC2 were math then the game wouldn't had to be played anymore. What happens if let's say we had a tiebreak and Stephano would win it. They wont have to play each other never again coz hey it's just math, we settled it Stephano>MC(math is pretty exact ya know). You would say no, but in this tourney Stephano>MC. What happened if they met again in the upper stages ? Would Stephano get a auto win just cuz he already defeated MC in this tourney ?
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On December 12 2011 22:42 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:30 Maenander wrote:On December 12 2011 22:27 quancer wrote:On December 12 2011 22:19 redviper wrote:On December 12 2011 22:13 quancer wrote:On December 12 2011 22:10 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On December 12 2011 21:51 Reasonable wrote:On December 12 2011 21:30 alpsi wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 sitromit wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. And how does the fact that MC actually played Stephano and BEAT him factor into your logic?? cam down he's trolling lol I'm not trolling at all. That fact that you think I'm trolling is because there are two mathematically equal solutions to this result, and the one that is given the preference is more intuitive. I'm not a big fan of Stephano, but I respect him as a player and to invite someone to such tournament and fly him all the way to Korea and to rate by a controversial scale is rather disrespectful at least. Here is something who hasn't slept through inequalities on algebra: let M=MC, S=Stephano, D=DRG M>S S>D } -> (S>D>M or M>S) = (S>M or M>S) D>M I really don't see how advancement in such tournament should be based on an implication that one match result is preferred to the other. It is the first time I encounter this in sports, maybe this is a common practice somewhere. I'm sorry if I offended any MC fans with this, but I think it is just to complain about this tournament system considering the scale of the Blizzard cup solved for you. D 3-2 M 2-2 S 2-2 M > S His point is that the results say M > S as well as S > D > M, which are completely contradictory. Why should we favour one over the other? Tournaments are strictly about overall performance in that a better score regardless of who you face determines how far you go. To suddenly dispense of this in the case of ties makes absolutely no sense, especially when your choice is essentially arbitrary. Tournaments are most certainly NOT about overall performance. Otherwise they would have a fully connected graph. There is an inherent localization in tournaments and this is clearly an evidence of that. MC beat Stephano is more localized than Stephano beat DRG beat MC. Its quite obvious and that is why everyone uses tie breakers. I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about the "fully connected graph" part. I would address that if you could clarify for me. This is the first time I've heard that A > B should be given more priority over B > C > A. Especially in Starcraft, where match-up prowess is such an important variable, this sort of thing leaves too much up to luck. Again, if you could help me understand your first point then perhaps I could form a better response. What he is saying is that a Single Elimination tournament is even more unfair in your book, because direct encounters between players matter even more (highly "localized"). Only a full league system would meet your demands. I'm sorry if this seems obtuse (it's very early where I am) but I do not see what single-elimination has to do with this. My demands are simply that *group play* requires tiebreakers because it's the least-arbitrary decider available that is feasible.
The demand is arbitrary because why tie breakers and not replay the entire group. head to head is a tie breaker and a good one, because it has a simple result (obviously 1 guy won, 1 lost) and because it doesn't require additional effort (game has already happened).
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On December 12 2011 22:46 darlhet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:41 Linwelin wrote:On December 12 2011 22:39 b0rt_ wrote:On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god You are far more annoying than any Stephano fanboy The way I said it wasn't the best, I agree. I'm allowed to criticize a player though you didnt criticize anything, you just went troll mode
All right I will rephrase
I was expecting Stephano to do decently but not to make it out of his group because I believe that he's not the best player in the universe as blind fanboys are claiming.
Is it better now?
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EPT
