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On December 02 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:
I haven't seen anything special out of Sage in a while. This includes his stream, GSL, and other appearances. I've tried to be optimistic watching his play... but I only like watching HerO these days.
I agree, I watched his stream today and was unimpressed in comparison with hero's. Hero's stream is so great to watch it's spoilt us I guess
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On December 02 2011 02:01 Poopi wrote:
MarineKing did some 2base marine/tank/starport against TT1 long time ago in GSL world championship, but it probably doesn't work against similar skills opponents, and anyone that work is found, either by koreans either by ThorZain :D (remember his "imba" thor build?)
2base timings with medivacs could work against non-robotic centric protoss build, you just contain him, throw down bunker, and laugh. MKP has his own timing with 2reactor rax 1fac from a 1rax expand (used it in game 1 against Sage). You can't die to all in but you've to do a lot of damage like Mvp did against MC against providence (and you transition into bio then)
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On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out.
That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end.
You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind.
The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage.
You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
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On December 02 2011 02:10 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out. That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end. You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind. The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage. You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win.
As Artosis will put it, its not a good way to play since people will figure it out sooner or later.
But i do agree it can be used in a BoX series to mindfuck your opponent. But it will never be the "main" army that we see in macro T v P games.
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On December 02 2011 02:10 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out. That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end. You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind. The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage. You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
Naama used this like 1year ago to win Dreamhack winter, there is a good reason to explain why it's failure.
You've to consider that if you don't all in nor want to face colossi you're on 2bases. Tanks are quite gas intensive, and if bio isn't, you can't afford medivacs/attack/defense upgrades + tanks. You've either to get a sick contain or all in him. The only way you can contain him if he doesn't go the robo path, which is possible, 2forges or even chargelots/archons are ok. But you're way behing in term of upgrades, and even infrastructure, so if your contain is broken without at least trading armies, you're doomed. Targetting sentries will be godlike if you need to focus fire colossi at the same time while not overkilling (depending on your upgrades, but 2tanks shot are enough if you use a bit of marine fire, not if you just rely on them ect... and you need to be extremely efficient with your tanks).
Then you get 3 bases, and 0 decent protoss will not get colossi against tanks/marine. So it's not the future at all, it just has a niche which is fine for timings/all in or 1 or 2 bases. (I'd prefer to be able (HOTS?) to play mech than marine tank if tanks are viable).
Btw if you play bio correctly during mid game you basically control the map, and even if you don't contain the protoss, drops are a sufficient threat to be sure that he doesn't spread too much.
You depend on the protoss tech path, and you have to start getting tank before scouting it, something I find personnaly awful, bio is much more versatile, allows you to almost everything (except a contain) you want to do with marines/tanks, and you can get quick upgrades, even a quick third and the godamn medivacs without fearing to miss a key timing.
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On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win.
You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is.
All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Naama used this like 1year ago to win Dreamhack winter, there is a good reason to explain why it's failure.
You've to consider that if you don't all in nor want to face colossi you're on 2bases. Tanks are quite gas intensive, and if bio isn't, you can't afford medivacs/attack/defense upgrades + tanks. You've either to get a sick contain or all in him.
Yup. The contain is what you would have to go for, or else just defend any all-in they throw at you. The difference is that when you contain, if they don't make units and stop teching, you can just attack and win at any time.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
The only way you can contain him if he doesn't go the robo path, which is possible, 2forges or even chargelots/archons are ok.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You certainly can contain if your opponent goes Robo after an expansion, because they then have to make the choice between:
a) not making units from the Robo and teching to Colossus (in which case you kill them) or
b) making Immortals and attacking headfirst into your contain, in which case once they make a couple of Immortals and an army you can retreat before they attack and while they were making only units, you have got an economy rolling back home.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
But you're way behing in term of upgrades, and even infrastructure, so if your contain is broken without at least trading armies, you're doomed. Targetting sentries will be godlike if you need to focus fire colossi at the same time while not overkilling (depending on your upgrades, but 2tanks shot are enough if you use a bit of marine fire, not if you just rely on them ect... and you need to be extremely efficient with your tanks).
Why are you behind in upgrades? If you forced units rather than upgrades (try defending marine/tank while going double forge... it isn't pretty), they don't have upgrades. If they went for upgrades, they should be dead. Infrastructure... what do you mean by this? And so far as them killing your army without you killing theirs... no shit, Sherlock ^_^ that's kind of how TvP always works.
I still don't understand why targetting sentries is "godlike", even when Colossi are out (which you didn't mention in your first post regarding targetting sentries). The idea is not to use Tanks/Marines alone to kill Colossi - by the time Colossi are out you should have Vikings. That is the aim.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Then you get 3 bases, and 0 decent protoss will not get colossi against tanks/marine. So it's not the future at all, it just has a niche which is fine for timings/all in or 1 or 2 bases. (I'd prefer to be able (HOTS?) to play mech than marine tank if tanks are viable).
You will have 3 bases to their 2, better economy, better tech (having Vikings first). Again, you will HAVE to do the timing to get ahead: playing Marine/Tank passively doesn't work.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Btw if you play bio correctly during mid game you basically control the map, and even if you don't contain the protoss, drops are a sufficient threat to be sure that he doesn't spread too much.
I'm not saying bio doesn't work - I'm saying that it looks to fall down in the lategame, once Protoss learn to defend drops. Marine tank doesn't let Protoss play in the same way and build up their "ideal" 200/200 army.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
You depend on the protoss tech path, and you have to start getting tank before scouting it, something I find personnaly awful, bio is much more versatile, allows you to almost everything (except a contain) you want to do with marines/tanks, and you can get quick upgrades, even a quick third and the godamn medivacs without fearing to miss a key timing.
Why do you depend on the Protoss tech path? If they go anything other than Robo, you can outright kill them with your Marine/tank force early game. If they go Robo, you retreat. There are numerous ways to play out the early game - early expand, go for seige mode to pressure first or even just go 1-1-1 to mix things up in a BoX.
The contain is the most vital part of Marine/Tank. It does rely heavily on it. But containing Protoss is just SO good.
Anyway, enough theorycrafting. I fear I've kind of commandeered this thread with an off topic discussion, so sorry T_T
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On December 02 2011 02:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win. You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is. All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
There is one build who come before 10minute: 2rax reactor, 1factory, the MKP build. And you've 1 upgrade: siege mode, and you've to kill the natural. If you don't do that, you're either defending an all in or an heavy pressure build, which is fine, you'll come ahead or praying that he doesn't go colo while preparing tanks before being able to scout his tech, which is awful except as a mind game or a "snipe" build, but not as a standard, because that's you're original argument I remind you.
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On December 02 2011 02:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win. You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is. All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
Well MVP converted to bio after that successful contain. So do you agree that this marine tank style is a niche that you use to get ahead in order to get a late game of bio? And that bio is the only way i see to be the core component of the late game t v p, maybe some BCs or thors but thats for another discussion.
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On December 02 2011 02:32 poorcloud wrote:
Well MVP converted to bio after that successful contain. So do you agree that this marine tank style is a niche that you use to get ahead in order to get a late game of bio? And that bio is the only way i see to be the core component of the late game t v p, maybe some BCs or thors but thats for another discussion.
Maybe we are watching different games or something, but how I interpret your post you seem to be implying that the contain "ended" and then MVP just played out the game like standard MMM.
It wasn't like that at all, AFAIK. The contain lasted the whole game, just sitting outside of MC's natural with Seige Tanks and MM, with, yes some Medivacs as well eventually.
By the time the final battle began, there were still a ton of Marines and Tanks making the bulk of MVP's army, along with bunkers, a few Banshees, a few Marauders, a few Medivacs and some Missile Turrets. That was a really hard contain, and in no way was bio the core component of that force any more than bio is the core component of Marine/Tank in TvZ.
I agree with some of your general sentiment - that marine/tank style is a way to get ahead in the earlier part of the game. I don't agree that it is necessarily "niche" (that could mean anything here, but I think you mean it is unpopular/not used very much, which is what I've been saying a lot) or that you need to transition to bio for the lategame. Still, it's all really theorycraft until some high level Korean Terran like MVP plays a few more games with Marine/Tank.
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Oh yay, thanks. Definitely add to the OP :p
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On December 02 2011 03:12 SeaSwift wrote:
I agree with some of your general sentiment - that marine/tank style is a way to get ahead in the earlier part of the game. I don't agree that it is necessarily "niche" (that could mean anything here, but I think you mean it is unpopular/not used very much, which is what I've been saying a lot) or that you need to transition to bio for the lategame. Still, it's all really theorycraft until some high level Korean Terran like MVP plays a few more games with Marine/Tank.
What makes you think he and other pros haven't experimented with marine/tank in the lategame?
There's a million different reasons why bio is the better option in a long run, and the reasons for it are painfully obvious. Tanks just aren't built for the match-up, just like hydralisks aren't built for ZvT, its like jamming a square piece in a round hole. Yet we have protoss forum warriors trying to tell terrans its a viable playstyle against all evidence, whats up with that?
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I don't want to address it in this thread - I've already taken the topic faaaaaar away from the actual KSL, so expect a PM dood ^_^
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Just to put it out there guys, there SHOULD be another Team Match Bo11 at the usual time tomorrow, however I am unable to create a thread for it, as I have no information to go off of! If it does go live, there isn't currently a calendar event either. I'll do my best to get the information to you guys, but nothing yet.
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Not about this specific event, but I fucking love this league. Gives a chance to unknown players to earn themselves some money and also to get exposure, and it also lets people who cant afford GSL an opportunity to watch some top koreans. Cant thank whoever arranged this enough.
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EPT
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