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Ok guys, this is last notice, I know. I just came back from the Code S Semifinal and was asked to cast this event. Its a new league format by the Korean Proteams.
Today there will be the following players participating: IM_Dreamer, BboongBboongPRIME, Startale_Squirtle, MVPMonster, ZENEX_Life, oGsTheStC, NSH?Seal, FXOChoya!
English stream with Khaldor: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV
 dreamertt vs  BBoongBBoong
 Squirtle vs Monster
Life vs TheStC
Seal vs Choya
Please tweet about it, facebook about it etc. This is very short notice and the teams would like to advertise it. It will be several times a week, always after the GSL. Im sure more information will be officially released soon. Im going to cast those games now, would be awesome if you could help me to spread the word!
Kind regards, Khaldor
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WOOT.
Just saw the post by teamzenex in the general forum.
I wish those events were promoted more, awesome games usually.
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awesome, more starcraft to watch. WORKING HARD! KHALDOR HWAITING!!!!!!!!!!
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Who is behind this tournament?
Any site with more info?
GL Khaldor.
I spread the news on Polish community sites.
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On November 28 2011 22:39 Sailincieri wrote:
Who is behind this tournament?
Any site with more info?
I'd like to know also. Prize pool? how long will the tournament/season/whatever last and so on?
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The coach of a team asked him to cast this.
Every team will send out a player after the GSL each day to fight inside a tournament. All bo3 using the new maps that GSL is testing out for next seasons and current GSL maps
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any bracket or something?
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Korean Starleague = Korean Weekly?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On November 28 2011 22:40 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:39 Sailincieri wrote:
Who is behind this tournament?
Any site with more info? I'd like to know also. Prize pool? how long will the tournament/season/whatever last and so on?
why should you care about prize pool,only good games matter.
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On November 28 2011 22:49 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:40 Grettin wrote:On November 28 2011 22:39 Sailincieri wrote:
Who is behind this tournament?
Any site with more info? I'd like to know also. Prize pool? how long will the tournament/season/whatever last and so on? why should you care about prize pool,only good games matter.
It was an example. I don't really care how much money there is in line, but general info would be awesome. Not to mention, how interested i'm to know what kind of Starleague these teams have created. Prize pool is also part of it.
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Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick!
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On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick!
online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included?
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Interesting! :3 I will tune in and see how it is.
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On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included?
Isn't that rule only for underage kids?
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On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included?
It's kind of like a Code B tournament, except anyone can play.
Also, online doesn't make the Korean Weekly bad.
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On November 28 2011 22:58 laguu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included? Isn't that rule only for underage kids?
no im pretty sure some online game sever is force to shutdown for a period after midnight. Also internet cafe (PC bang) also need to close on time.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On November 28 2011 22:58 laguu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included? Isn't that rule only for underage kids?
doesn't apply to SC2.
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On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included?
It is not. It has nothing to do with Bnet 2.0 as far as i remember reading correctly. There is thread somewhere in the Broodwar section.
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On November 28 2011 23:05 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:58 laguu wrote:On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included? Isn't that rule only for underage kids? no im pretty sure some online game sever is force to shutdown for a period after midnight. Also internet cafe (PC bang) also need to close on time.
No Koreans are forced to register with Korean ID when making online accounts so that only kids are stopped from playing at night.
Edit: although it doesn't effect SC2
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More Code B exposure is never a bad thing, can't wait to see some sick games!
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Looking forward to this  Good luck Squirtle, brother! :D!!!!
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+1 for this good new league
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dam no SlayerS ??? well after Korean weekly(SlayerS weelky) it's ok
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Prize pool? Anyway, looks good, so I'll tune in.
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[1v1]
1st: 100$
2nd: 50$
[TvT]
1st team: 200$
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Prizepool is 100$ for the winner, 50$ for 2nd per daily 1on1 tournament (Mo-We). There will be some Team Matches with 200$ for the winning Team (Th-Sa). That's how it works, if I understood it correctly.
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United States15275 Posts
I love any Protoss who transitions into immortals.
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what time will this normally start? (PST)
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so each team gets to send out one representative each playday ? Much like the AOL to a lesser extent.
still great as long as all teams endorse it and as long as TheStC plays
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Just tuned in, what are the results so far?
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On November 28 2011 23:36 OnFiRe888 wrote:
what time will this normally start? (PST)
I believe it started at 5am PST today, right after GSL
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thanks for covering this khaldor! appreciated.
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oh i didnt even know about this, ill check after the next gsl .
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Sounds great. Gonna tune in.
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What about a TSL competitor?
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On November 29 2011 00:53 Shinta) wrote:
What about a TSL competitor?
I agree, where is the TSL representative? Perhaps with Coach Lee's new practice structure they can't make the time?
Also, this should really get a calendar feature, I had no idea this was going on until I saw the thread.
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games have been pretty cool today actually, glad i found out about this
Choya cheesed by STC as he went for nexus first
Now He Knows!!!!!
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On November 28 2011 23:06 nugget-92 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 23:05 NB wrote:On November 28 2011 22:58 laguu wrote:On November 28 2011 22:55 NB wrote:On November 28 2011 22:53 nugget-92 wrote:
Sweet a new league every GSL day. That's sick! online league happen at 11PM KST? not really... Korea has a strict rule on online gaming after midnight, i wonder if SC2 is included? Isn't that rule only for underage kids? no im pretty sure some online game sever is force to shutdown for a period after midnight. Also internet cafe (PC bang) also need to close on time. No Koreans are forced to register with Korean ID when making online accounts so that only kids are stopped from playing at night. Edit: although it doesn't effect SC2
It does affect SC2. If you are under-age you aren't able to log into SC2 at night
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Choya, oh man, this is a super sexy build.
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They're playing like a norush20 game lol
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On November 29 2011 01:14 bo0 wrote:
They're playing like a norush20 game lol
what i thought too
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I think this might officially be the greediest game ever played.
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On November 29 2011 01:21 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think this might officially be the greediest game ever played.
as for pro games.... definitely.
at least for PvT ^^
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That IS short notice, but hell yeah I'll spread this. Want to see Squirtle play. =)
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Tomorrow's matches, if I'm not mistaken. I might have gotten the pairings/order wrong but these are the 8 players for tomorrow's KSL matches.
FXOTear v STCurious
NSHSsculp vs AnnYeongPrime.WE
oGsMC vs vileYong
IMReady vs MVPNoblesse
EDIT: Sorry, I was unable to find any information on FXOTear (Apparently he plays Protoss, thanks Asha`)
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pretty cool stuff someone should put that on front page
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feels like thestc is performing really well in online cups ^^
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On November 29 2011 01:43 VirgilSC2 wrote:Tomorrow's matches, if I'm not mistaken. I might have gotten the pairings/order wrong but these are the 8 players for tomorrow's KSL matches. FXOTear v STCuriousNSHSsculp vs AnnYeongPrime.WEoGsMC vs vileYongIMReady vs MVPNoblesseEDIT: Sorry, I was unable to find any information on FXOTear
Tear is Protoss.
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On November 29 2011 01:48 Asha` wrote:Tear is Protoss.
bm?
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According to Khaldor, tomorrow's broadcast will be at the same time 13:00 GMT (+00:00) I believe, at Khaldor's Stream
Make sure you tune in! It's always good to support the fledgling scene outside the GSL in Korea
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Is this just show matches or does that make up an 8 man bracket?
Edit: oh I see nevermind.
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On November 29 2011 02:12 Fermats_last wrote:
Is this just show matches or does that make up an 8 man bracket?
8 players bracket but khaldor said its kinda like showmatches, idk
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aaahhh, khaldor man stop it, you're getting it all wrong!
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Such amazing play by theSTC in that final game!
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lol TheStC handicapping himself with bio vs Zerg and still comes out on top
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bio only play vs zerg so impressive
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Spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler + TheStC takes Game 3 over Monster to win the first KSL! Quite a bizarre match with an almost IdrA-like GG from Monster
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w
t
f.....
that was such a brutal, brutal game, I love those ones where it goes on for 30 min, just a continuous slugfest like a boxfight in a rocky movie. Great play by theStC!
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seriously? i stopped watching when ultralisk was in his base killing raxs wtf
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On November 29 2011 02:30 Akhee wrote:
seriously? i stopped watching when ultralisk was in his base killing raxs wtf
Me too...xD
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Russian Federation57 Posts
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Thank you Khaldor, great casting! This is really exciting stuff, seems like a lot more games in a short period of time
and i think this timeslot is awesome for europe.
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on another note, are there comprehensive high level replays showing how to bio only vs zerg?
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if i'm correct, there are no vods of this on khaldor's own3d stream channel and on his youtube, does anybody know how khaldor normally organizes his vods? (everybody has their own "system")
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Isn't StarLeague a registered trademark by OGN? How can these guys use it on SC2?
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I think this is a great time to start up another Korean league since there will be a brief lull between now and the next GSL/GSTL. Just think about all the players that have either not qualified for the current GSL OR have already been knocked out and are waiting for the next season to play meaningful matches. GL to all involved in this "new" Korean league and I hope it is successful and something the teams can do alternatively to GSL/GSTL
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I see the tournament listing, but no stream!
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no games for today? I can see the lineup and I was so excited... but no stream yet :/
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
There are games today but Khaldor was casting at the GOM office today so couldn't get back in time.
Not sure where it's covered in Korean.
Also not sure whether Khaldor will jump on when he's home or whether he'll just sit out today having not been able to get back in time for a lot of it.
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On November 29 2011 15:44 ElephantBaby wrote:
Isn't StarLeague a registered trademark by OGN? How can these guys use it on SC2?
NASL uses it. North American Star League. They haven't been sued and it's been an ongoing, major thing. I doubt "star league" is trademarked.
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The Korean stream is back on, just in case sb would need it.
http://www.own3d.tv/kigh34
the first game's over while the stream was under maintenance, and they are now playing CreatorPrime vs IMTrue
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Thanks for the list, always helps =)
Wish khaldor was casting though . . . more importantly, I wish i could speak korean XD. Regardless, at least I can watch the games even if I can't hear them =P.
Fun league. Great idea =) Plus, its a great tournament to put into this downtime (9-11/12 ish EST). That way, i get my non-stop sc2 action 
EDIT: By the way, does any know of any site or page keeping track of the brackets for these dailies? The TL page only has the winners, but I'd be interested to see brackets throughout the daily like playhem or any other daily/weekly tourney does.
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Canada13389 Posts
Damn I wish I could read hangul I want to know who's playing. lol
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I haven't been watching but the Protoss whose name is in Korean is CreatorPrime (which I'm just gonna assume cuz he's the only prime player here and "Prime" is in the name in Korean. Guessing "Protoss" is Vampire?
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On December 01 2011 01:01 In)Spire wrote:
I haven't been watching but the Protoss whose name is in Korean is CreatorPrime (which I'm just gonna assume cuz he's the only prime player here and "Prime" is in the name in Korean. Guessing "Protoss" is Vampire?
Exactly.
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On December 01 2011 01:01 In)Spire wrote:
I haven't been watching but the Protoss whose name is in Korean is CreatorPrime (which I'm just gonna assume cuz he's the only prime player here and "Prime" is in the name in Korean. Guessing "Protoss" is Vampire?
That would make the most sense. I can't read Korean, but if the name containing prime is correct, then it could be the only one, unless it's the final match which I'm fairly sure it is not.
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STAce vs NHSTassadar now for those that can't read Korean.
But I'm sure everyone can tell considering all the Protosses won lol
So CreatorPrime vs whoever wins this for finals.
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On December 01 2011 01:23 In)Spire wrote:
STAce vs NHSTassadar now for those that can't read Korean.
But I'm sure everyone can tell considering all the Protosses won lol
So CreatorPrime vs whoever wins this for finals.
Thanks for the updates. Been doing homework while checking this so it helps me out XD. This is exactly why we need brackets! hah
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On December 01 2011 01:31 Acronysis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:23 In)Spire wrote:
STAce vs NHSTassadar now for those that can't read Korean.
But I'm sure everyone can tell considering all the Protosses won lol
So CreatorPrime vs whoever wins this for finals. Thanks for the updates. Been doing homework while checking this so it helps me out XD. This is exactly why we need brackets! hah
Haha no prob ^^
But looks like STAce vs CreatorPrime for finals.
STAce is the Blue Protoss and CreatorPrime is the Red.
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Tried to get in to cast this... Unsuccessful.
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Meh, that's a shame. It would be nice if both you and Khaldor casted this, that way there's a better chance, or at least they can schedule it so that an english caster would for sure be able to cast these.
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On December 01 2011 01:49 Wolf wrote:
Tried to get in to cast this... Unsuccessful.
Yeah I saw. Was disappointed that he just kinda ignored your message :/.
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Well it was after the 1st set of the final (bo3). So with just 1-2 more games, it wouldn't been worth the work. But yeah, I think the organisation of KSL still has to improve the communication to foreign casters, if they want to make this league a worldwide success.
Well Played today by Creator. Showed some good PvP Stuff an became 100$ richer. Not a bad pocketmoney for the kid.
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I'm scared of this new phoenix PvP play becoming the standard...
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On December 01 2011 02:10 Wolf wrote:
I'm scared of this new phoenix PvP play becoming the standard...
I think it's cool. Really showcases a players micro and decision making. With phoenixes being such a whimpy yet fast unit, it takes a skilled player to be able to control them properly against others. But yeah, if i had to see it every pvp game it would get old, but for now, i'm okay with it =)
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On December 01 2011 02:10 Wolf wrote:
I'm scared of this new phoenix PvP play becoming the standard...
Since it's hardly owned by Blinkstalker play, I doubt it will be the case.
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does anybody know the plans for tonight? is it not supposed to be a "team league" style tournament? stream/casters?
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 01 2011 11:04 OnFiRe888 wrote:
does anybody know the plans for tonight? is it not supposed to be a "team league" style tournament? stream/casters?
Khaldor Thomas Kilian
I will be casting the KSL today again! Starting at 2pm CET with players like Sage, YongHwa, JookTo, Keen and Marineking!
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Sage! Yay! Yonghwa! Yay! Keen! Yay!
Hopefully Sage doesn't meet Yonghwa early.
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Thanks so much dude, everyone chip in with results, Liquipedia is the failsafe way to keep up with stuff
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Completed results from Day 2.
Can't wait for todays games, line up is stacked =)
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nice sage and mkp, sick lineup for just a daily.
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sage awesome
Does anyone have a schedule for today?
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I love euro casters!! lol!
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yay! get my daily dose of awesome korean starcraft!
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ToD + Khaldor pretty awesome combo, do they work out together?
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On December 01 2011 22:20 michielbrands wrote:
were you todays line up?
It says: Todays players are: NSH_Sage(P), IM_YongHwa(P), oGsJookTo(Z), MVPKeeN(T), Startale_Virus(T), ZeNEX_SuZy(P), FXOLucky(Z) and MarineKingPRIME(T)
I really would like to know who is playing when though. 
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The sounds is a bit wonky for Khaldor, changing in volume up and down. Tod is ok.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Is this a new version of Bel'shir winter or have I just never noticed the chasms? :O
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United States97276 Posts
lol is that ToD saying that JookTo beat him in the qualifier?
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United States97276 Posts
On December 01 2011 22:38 Asha` wrote:
Is this a new version of Bel'shir winter? :O
i just tuned in. What's different about it?
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I'm a bit annoyed that they made the players wait in the lobby while ToD set up a microphone. At least do it after a match or something, it's not like 2 casters were necessary
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 01 2011 22:39 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 22:38 Asha` wrote:
Is this a new version of Bel'shir winter? :O i just tuned in. What's different about it?
I dunno, maybe I just never noticed all the chasms before and stuff. I thought the spaces were more full of forests etc.
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YongHwa vs. Sage = nerdgasm, even if sage's pvp is meh
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lol best knock knock joke of all time =S
Knock Knock who's there?
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States97276 Posts
I was kind of late. Was Keen vs Jookto the first series?
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United States97276 Posts
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On December 01 2011 22:45 Shellshock1122 wrote:
I was kind of late. Was Keen vs Jookto the first series?
Yes
+ Show Spoiler +2-0 Keen, JookTo's ZvT can't stand Keens TvZ it seems, ahead in supply both games.
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United States97276 Posts
he's not going for colossus. I think he's going for warp prism speed
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Hahahahahaha, calling it how it is.
I love this guy :D
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ToD is a frickin great caster!
And I want Oz as casting mascot in more casts from now on lol, it's so funny just to watch him
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Nice to see Oz in the background. And always a treat when ToD is casting, he can be such a troll at times, but it's all good. I remember his casting in HSC 3.
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You guys are awesome, I wish NA casters were more like this!
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United States97276 Posts
Lol. I guess yay for sage finally winning a PvP series xD
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Yeah sage 2-0
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Yay for more players casting, especially ToD!
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Cute cannon rush. Didn't expect that 2 pylons would be enough to block it off. Sage!
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ToD is a natural! Ahh that was so great.
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hahahaha i hope there isn't anyone concerned with gender fairness watching this stream
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"if a girl gets into code A and i'm still in code B, i'm going to be really mad" -- ToD
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
explosionNL was MVP_Avenge afaik, seems probable it's him I guess.
Amusingly Tassadar used to also have Suzy as an aka >_>
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ToD really giving it to Susie. I sense a rivalry brewing here.
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ToD is suchs a troll, it's hilarious and his insight is really good too
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Tod's mic is better then Khaldors don't switch ...
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hahaha " you want your viewer count to drop to 50 hahaha " tod is great !
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ToD so good. Todderdam in GomTV War3 invitational was awesome, love seeing ToD cast. Khaldor is of course great too. European casters are fun
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i remember this explosionNL player, i saw him play against tod, cheesed EVERY single game lOL
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man tod is alittle overconvident hes good but hes not on the korean level... dont really like tod
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ToD is so funny, he should cast the GSL with Khaldor if he doesn't get in Code A.
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Can we get a liquipedia page or something? Knowing as little as we do now these may as well be showmatches.
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On December 01 2011 23:24 Zaxon wrote:
man tod is alittle overconvident hes good but hes not on the korean level... dont really like tod
Uh ? ToD is always saying he sucks at this game lol
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Last game in Ro8 now, FXO.Lucky vs MarineKing.Prime
Bo3
Game 1
Khaldor and QiX.Shuffle casting
Whole tournament to be played today.
Keen, Sage and Suzy waiting for the winner.
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rofl.
MKP loses two SCVs to the scouting drone. gg.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Lucky's drone is a ninja assassin xD
2 scv kills in 4 minutes xD
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Terrible supply block for Lucky, sees the push coming but can't actually make any units lol
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You don't kill MKP's SCV if you want to get tier 2 with 2base Lucky :D
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Anyone else have unwatchable lag?
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On December 01 2011 23:39 Hypertension wrote:
Last game in Ro8 now, FXO.Lucky vs MarineKing.Prime
Keen, Sage and Suzy waiting for the winner
Khaldor and QiX.Shuffle casting
Whole tournament to be played today.
.
MarineKing.Prime 1: FXO.Lucky 0 (Bo3)
Lucky picks Belshir Beach for Game 2
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United States97276 Posts
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Sigh, I was kind of hoping for a decent series -___-
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On December 01 2011 23:58 Asha` wrote:
Sigh, I was kind of hoping for a decent series -___-
and the following one with MKP will probably not be better
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On December 01 2011 23:27 MGN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 23:24 Zaxon wrote:
man tod is alittle overconvident hes good but hes not on the korean level... dont really like tod Uh ? ToD is always saying he sucks at this game lol
dude he says that with like 100 % sarcasme in his voice....
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Oh MKP you are so adorable but so abusive with your terran. I can't hate him though.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Man these greedy greedy Protoss nowadays xD
So many super fast thirds.
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United States97276 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:06 Asha` wrote:
Man these greedy greedy Protoss nowadays xD
So many super fast thirds.
lucky for sage I don't think Keen is as aggressive as Bomber
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How fast was the 3rd? It wasn't the 1 gate double expand, was it?
Thanks to those updating results on LP.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:08 Caesarion wrote:
How fast was the 3rd? It wasn't the 1 gate double expand, was it?
Thanks to those updating results on LP.
5m 30 or so, very fast.
Not sure what off, stream is a bit laggy for me so I keep tabbing out =p
Maybe more like HerO vs ASD than JYP vs Bomber
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On December 02 2011 00:10 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:08 Caesarion wrote:
How fast was the 3rd? It wasn't the 1 gate double expand, was it?
Thanks to those updating results on LP. 5m 30 or so, very fast. Not sure what off, stream is a bit laggy for me so I keep tabbing out =p Maybe more like HerO vs ASD than JYP vs Bomber
1st Nexus before Core too.
ToD: Wow... Keen is insane :D
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Keen playing so well at the moment!
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Keen really looking Code S level lately, going to be an interesting series with Huk :O
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On December 02 2011 00:13 Asha` wrote:
Keen really looking Code S level lately, going to be an interesting series with Huk :O
Win-Win situation: Huk or a possible epic ceremony :D
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On December 02 2011 00:14 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:13 Asha` wrote:
Keen really looking Code S level lately, going to be an interesting series with Huk :O Win-Win situation: Huk or a possible epic ceremony :D
Double win - Huk & Epic ceremony.
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3g void ray vs 1rax FE into 3 rax, look bad for Sage.
Or not :'(
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That was actually a very patient all-in, as weird as that sounds.
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Game 2
Keen goes with early Comand center
Sage counters with proxy stargate. Cuts probes and build 2 gates at home.
Keen has bunker at front with some scattered marines
Sage shows first void-ray to deny some mining.
2 voidrays are microed well vs 5 marines, killing a couple.
3 void rays dance against 8 marines, again killing one, then focus down gas, but are pushed back again
4 voidrays charge on rocks, and meet gateway army.
Keen brings his army to the front to meet gateway/voidray army, bunker helps a lot. SUVs are pulled, but Keen slowly loses all of his marines and has to GG.
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Series tied 1:1
Game 3 on Crossfire
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On December 02 2011 00:23 Caesarion wrote:
That was actually a very patient all-in, as weird as that sounds.
The rocks help so much, interesting that it's the first one I see on a televised game on Day Break.
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Void rays, Void rays, gotta mass up my Void rays!
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2rax marines pressure from Keen
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On December 02 2011 00:26 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:23 Caesarion wrote:
That was actually a very patient all-in, as weird as that sounds. The rocks help so much, interesting that it's the first one I see on a televised game on Day Break.
Yeah. That's what I thought too. 4 charged rays take down bunkers so fast.
Guess that really shows that Sage knows how to exploit maps, including that pretty obvious cannon rush that I've never seen before.
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I think Keen didnt go in too early on purpose, i just had too because a probe scouted the proxy,,,
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On December 02 2011 00:31 ROiDster wrote:
I think Keen didnt go in too early on purpose, i just had too because a probe scouted the proxy,,,
Yes, and now he goes for tank/marine/banshee, interesting on 2base on this map.
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Keen proxies his second barracks. No gas building early.
Sage builds a zealot and warpgates.
Sage sees the attack, pulls all of his probes. Stalker helps a lot. Most of the probes survive, Keen is repulsed.
Keen falls back and builds a CC. Sage also expands and makes 2 more gateways.
Proxy barracks being chased across map by 2 stalkers.catches fire before being saved by 7 marines. Sage micros and kills one marine, then a SUV before coming home victorious.
Sage makes robotics, observer and collosus den.
Keen goes for banshees with cloak. He snipes observer but first collosus is on the way. Keen loses first cloaked banshee
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lol, what a horrible idea from keen. trying to do a contain against sages army comp
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United States97276 Posts
This is good for marineking. No chance of TvT today
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On December 02 2011 00:34 Hypertension wrote:
Keen proxies his second barracks. No gas building early.
Sage builds a zealot and warpgates.
Sage sees the attack, pulls all of his probes. Stalker helps a lot. Most of the probes survive, Keen is repulsed.
Keen falls back and builds a CC. Sage also expands and makes 2 more gateways.
Proxy barracks being chased across map by 2 stalkers.catches fire before being saved by 7 marines. Sage micros and kills one marine, then a SUV before coming home victorious.
Sage makes robotics, observer and collosus den.
Keen goes for banshees with cloak. He snipes observer but first collosus is on the way. Keen loses first cloaked banshee
Keens second banshee shows itself, but leaves quickly, then kills a probe in the middle of Crossfire. Keen decides it is time to show his army. Sets up a contain with tanks, marines and banshees. Sage takes a look, sends out 3 collosus and stalkers to crush the terran army. Banshees stays cloaked and alive, manage to kill some collusus.
Sage finds his observer and pushes to the Terran expansion. Imba repair on bunker, but Sage ignores this and pushes forward into Terran main. Keen has to GG
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Hey Khaldor, the sound levels from your microphone fluctuates wildly!
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On December 02 2011 00:37 Shellshock1122 wrote:
This is good for marineking. No chance of TvT today
He needs the practice though. BoxeR is going to whoop his ass. 
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Sage wins first series. MKP vs Suzy game 1
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United States97276 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:38 Caesarion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:37 Shellshock1122 wrote:
This is good for marineking. No chance of TvT today He needs the practice though. BoxeR is going to whoop his ass.
whoa im remembering stuff so wrong. i need to go see a doctor
2-0 at orlando is what i meant T_T
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HAHAHA
Oh MKP
(Antiga Shipyard, lifted his CC off to head to Gold but then re-landed it after seeing this was GSL version with no Gold)
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LOL, that was hilarious. MKP <3
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MKP forgetting that there is no gold minerals :D
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MarineKing lifts his CC to go to the gold...then realises there is no gold base on this map.
ahahaha
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Oh MKP
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That was priceless... ROFL
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Ah Keen, looked so good in his first series and in game 1 on Antiga....then dies to an all in and gets himself miles behind after the attempted proxy pressure
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rofl, MKP going to try to float to the gold...and then realises there are no gold minerals xD
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LOL mkp and his ladder builds
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ROFL!!!
I was about to go to bed too. Nearly 5am, glad i didn't -_-
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Nexus first vs MKP?
That's ballsy.
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whos this protoss? susie? Whats that?
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THAT STRATEGY! XD
Sorry for the lack of a thread today as well guys, I overslept T_T, I got the information for Friday/Saturday ahead of time so I'll be able to create them!
Great job who-ever did the Liquipedia page
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MKP floats his command center to blue minerals, realizes his error and lands back at his base. Suzy counters with Nexus first.
MKP builds marauders and marines, researches combat shields.
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MKP overconfident, a bunker would've won the game :'(
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MKP pulls workers for his first attack. Suzy sacs his expansion, and pulls all his probes back to his main.
forcefields don't help much, but MKP is pushed back to the expansion and crushed, Suzy losing only 5 probes.
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On December 02 2011 00:42 poorcloud wrote:
whos this protoss? susie? Whats that?
+ Show Spoiler +
He used to be known as MVPAvenged.
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On December 02 2011 Hypertension wrote:
MKP floats his command center to blue minerals, realizes his error and lands back at his base. Suzy counters with Nexus first.
MKP builds marauders and marines, researches combat shields.
MKP pulls workers for his first attack. Suzy sacs his expansion, and pulls all his probes back to his main.
forcefields don't help much, but MKP is pushed back to the expansion and crushed, Suzy losing only 5 probes.
Suzy brings his army down to the front. MKP chases the stalkeres back with a couple tanks backing his MMM army. Push is finally delayed at front with forcefields while zealots kill 6 SCVs.
MKP elevators his army into Suzy's main. Suzy flanks the tanks with stalkers and shows an immortal.
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United States97276 Posts
MKP blew that game. He could have won with a bunker and a little better micro at the natural with his early push
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On December 02 2011 00:49 Hypertension wrote:
MKP floats his command center to blue minerals, realizes his error and lands back at his base. Suzy counters with Nexus first.
MKP builds marauders and marines, researches combat shields.
MKP pulls workers for his first attack. Suzy sacs his expansion, and pulls all his probes back to his main.
forcefields don't help much, but MKP is pushed back to the expansion and crushed, Suzy losing only 5 probes.
Suzy brings his army down to the front. MKP chases the stalkeres back with a couple tanks backing his MMM army. Push is finally delayed at front with forcefields while zealots kill 6 SCVs.
MKP elevators his army into Suzy's main. Suzy flanks the tanks with stalkers and shows an immortal.
suzy pushes into MKPs base and the Protoss army is camping the Terran production facilities. Fantasy floats all of his buildings, but MKP takes back the controls and GGs
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On December 02 2011 00:46 Talionis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:42 poorcloud wrote:
whos this protoss? susie? Whats that? + Show Spoiler +He used to be known as MVPAvenged.
Did he ever get any good? The last i remember of him was getting EMPed by Boxer and moletrap screaming.
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On December 02 2011 00:54 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:46 Talionis wrote:On December 02 2011 00:42 poorcloud wrote:
whos this protoss? susie? Whats that? + Show Spoiler +He used to be known as MVPAvenged. Did he ever get any good? The last i remember of him was getting EMPed by Boxer and moletrap screaming.
I don't think so. The only other game I seen by him was when he got owned by ST_KingKong in the Korean weekly.
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trying to 4g mkp. bad idea.
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How come when i go 1 rax expand in T v P, i die to a 4 gate but MKP can do that while losing a bunker....
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you cant cheese mkp, come on now. when will people learn?
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On December 02 2011 00:58 darcevader88 wrote:
you cant cheese mkp, come on now. when will people learn?
MVP will like to speak to you
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On December 02 2011 00:59 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:58 darcevader88 wrote:
you cant cheese mkp, come on now. when will people learn? MVP will like to speak to you
game genie is exception to all rules.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:04 Mi.rai wrote:
suzy = tassadar?
Avenge.
So many all ins
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lmao, try to cheese mkp he will cheese u out
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United States810 Posts
i wake up just time in time for marineking yah so happy :DD
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Blizzard needs to consider removing concussive shell from HOTS. Removes micro from the game.
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rofl that was one of the best manner mules ever
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lol, went from thinking its a tvt to a pvp :S tvp finals coming up sage vs mkp
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Tassadar is such a joke...
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On December 02 2011 01:09 Kubricks wrote:
Tassadar is such a joke...
Poor Tassadar. Gets flamed even while not playing.
Good, we're having ToD for the finals. :D
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2 reactor rax + tanks push from MKP
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On December 02 2011 01:10 Caesarion wrote:Poor Tassadar. Gets flamed even while not playing. Good, we're having ToD for the finals. :D
Tassadar is to All Ins like HongUn is to blink stalkers/carriers.
Both iconic and infamous for their crucial elements in protoss play.
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United States810 Posts
it seems like they have never seen thisbuild from marineking i think its the same one he used vs oz
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DT bet by Sage who's behind but Ebay's up for MKP
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United States810 Posts
marineking is up 20 supply. i dont know why they think hes behind. wtf >_<
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On December 02 2011 01:20 Wein wrote:
Who is casting?
ToD/Khaldor
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:19 Isaac wrote:
marineking is up 20 supply. i dont know why they think hes behind. wtf >_<
They never said marineking was behind.
They said Sage was after failing to get ahead with his 5gate.
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On December 02 2011 01:15 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:10 Caesarion wrote:On December 02 2011 01:09 Kubricks wrote:
Tassadar is such a joke... Poor Tassadar. Gets flamed even while not playing. Good, we're having ToD for the finals. :D Tassadar is to All Ins like HongUn is to blink stalkers/carriers. Both iconic and infamous for their crucial elements in protoss play.
Wait, what? HongUn is famous for Blink Stalkers? I thought he was famous for all-inning vs every Terran and going for Carriers vs Zerg, and that's kind of it.
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On December 02 2011 01:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Blizzard needs to consider removing concussive shell from HOTS. Removes micro from the game.
force fields first
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On December 02 2011 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:15 poorcloud wrote:On December 02 2011 01:10 Caesarion wrote:On December 02 2011 01:09 Kubricks wrote:
Tassadar is such a joke... Poor Tassadar. Gets flamed even while not playing. Good, we're having ToD for the finals. :D Tassadar is to All Ins like HongUn is to blink stalkers/carriers. Both iconic and infamous for their crucial elements in protoss play. Wait, what? HongUn is famous for Blink Stalkers? I thought he was famous for all-inning vs every Terran and going for Carriers vs Zerg, and that's kind of it.
That's what Artosis wants you to think.
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United States810 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:22 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:19 Isaac wrote:
marineking is up 20 supply. i dont know why they think hes behind. wtf >_< They never said marineking was behind. They said Sage was after failing to get ahead with his 5gate.
yes i apologize. i was getting mixed messages. but your right ^^
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I think MVP-style Marine/Tank play off of multiple bases could be the future of TvP. Yes, I know it has its flaws etc, but it can look really convincing if played properly. It's not a gimmicky 1base build like the 1-1-1 (although it can be used as such, see MVP vs MC at MLG Providence), but a genuine macro strategy. It has to do a pretty good contain to work really well, but you can easily take multiple bases and it gives a very strong style.
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On December 02 2011 01:23 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Blizzard needs to consider removing concussive shell from HOTS. Removes micro from the game. force fields first
Do people still get into arguments regarding this dumb "removes micro" shit? It's hilariously stupid.
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On December 02 2011 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:15 poorcloud wrote:On December 02 2011 01:10 Caesarion wrote:On December 02 2011 01:09 Kubricks wrote:
Tassadar is such a joke... Poor Tassadar. Gets flamed even while not playing. Good, we're having ToD for the finals. :D Tassadar is to All Ins like HongUn is to blink stalkers/carriers. Both iconic and infamous for their crucial elements in protoss play. Wait, what? HongUn is famous for Blink Stalkers? I thought he was famous for all-inning vs every Terran and going for Carriers vs Zerg, and that's kind of it.
Nah Hongun P v T is pretty decent and he does blink stalkers like 75% of the time against zergs.
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On December 02 2011 01:23 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Blizzard needs to consider removing concussive shell from HOTS. Removes micro from the game. force fields first
I'll start praying to the Starcraft gods.
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"You wanna dance with me? Huh?" Tod cracks me up.
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tod is hilarious man, wow i love this guys commentary
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Wait a minute this is Debo's marine helliooan build. Nice.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
"your observing is too jerky"
"I'm just too fast for you...you can't see me moving with the naked eye"
lolol
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Doubt Sage can hold this all in
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Wow Sage, that was fucking beautiful defence :O
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What a sick sick hold by Sage!
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Pretty impressive hold by Sage considering he was supply blocked half the time.
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Wow sage is so composed in holding that push.
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I remember in the first Dreamhack Winter, when mana was so patient vs Naama. Nowadays insane patience is pretty much standard for high level PvT. It's really great to see such amazing defence.
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Beautifully done by Sage. I was so afraid that the massive supply block at 60 would have been his downfall, but he had just the right amount of forcefields.
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On December 02 2011 01:31 Asha` wrote:
"your observing is too jerky"
"I'm just too fast for you...you can't see me moving with the naked eye"
lolol
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Doubt Sage can hold this all in
It's the map, the P gets a free expansion due to FF but terrans are vulnerable due to P being strong early game. Except for Puzzle (who choked so very hard) I haven't seen a P lose on this map. Honestly, the moment the phoenix/3 sentries were out, I didn't see a way for MKP to win that game.
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oh man i love tod's commentary, he's hilarious, even better with rotti archon
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On December 02 2011 01:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:31 Asha` wrote:
"your observing is too jerky"
"I'm just too fast for you...you can't see me moving with the naked eye"
lolol
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Doubt Sage can hold this all in It's the map, the P gets a free expansion due to FF but terrans are vulnerable due to P being strong early game. Except for Puzzle (who choked so very hard) I haven't seen a P lose on this map. Honestly, the moment the phoenix/3 sentries were out, I didn't see a way for MKP to win that game.
...If that it's hard for Terran to get an expansion early on this map is what you took away from this game, I'm sad for you.
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France12886 Posts
What is that map lol?
Sage playing terribly perma supply blocked but still holding. I understand why I see things such as "calm before the storm autowin pvt" in LR thread after seeing that game.
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On December 02 2011 01:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:31 Asha` wrote:
"your observing is too jerky"
"I'm just too fast for you...you can't see me moving with the naked eye"
lolol
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Doubt Sage can hold this all in It's the map, the P gets a free expansion due to FF but terrans are vulnerable due to P being strong early game. Except for Puzzle (who choked so very hard) I haven't seen a P lose on this map. Honestly, the moment the phoenix/3 sentries were out, I didn't see a way for MKP to win that game.
Map stats. Small sample size, but a few Terrans have won on that map.
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On December 02 2011 01:38 Poopi wrote:
What is that map lol?
Sage playing terribly perma supply blocked but still holding. I understand why I see things such as "calm before the storm autowin pvt" in LR thread after seeing that game.
Again, if what you took away from that game is that Sage played terribly and still won, you must have a really weird mindset watching games. I took away that Sage had insane patience, did a nice little Zealot counterattack, fended away a Medivac/Hellion attack successfully with Stalkers and microed really well with Marines.
It probably does favour Protoss in PvT, but I don't think that's why Sage won.
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Marine King likes his marines.
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This french guy has kind of a negative attitute. Khaldor is trying to be nice but he is constantly shutting him down. If I were Khaldor, I would be annoyed at that point.
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"Probes don't win you games, especially not during the fights"
Ah, ToD.
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On December 02 2011 01:28 SeaSwift wrote:
I think MVP-style Marine/Tank play off of multiple bases could be the future of TvP. Yes, I know it has its flaws etc, but it can look really convincing if played properly. It's not a gimmicky 1base build like the 1-1-1 (although it can be used as such, see MVP vs MC at MLG Providence), but a genuine macro strategy. It has to do a pretty good contain to work really well, but you can easily take multiple bases and it gives a very strong style.
Dies to colossi and badly :'(
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United States97276 Posts
pretty anticlimactic ending to that game
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Well, Ryung. That's how you execute an all-in on Crossfire.
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Awww I wanted to watch at least 1 long game...
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Does MKP ever not all-in?
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
zzz, predictably boring final game from marineking.
oh well, some good games dotted around today, looking forward to ST vs Prime!
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Lol Tod so French.
Nice fnatic shirt as well
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United States97276 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:45 tomatriedes wrote:
Does MKP ever not all-in?
yea did you watch him vs Zenio the other day?
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On December 02 2011 01:44 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:28 SeaSwift wrote:
I think MVP-style Marine/Tank play off of multiple bases could be the future of TvP. Yes, I know it has its flaws etc, but it can look really convincing if played properly. It's not a gimmicky 1base build like the 1-1-1 (although it can be used as such, see MVP vs MC at MLG Providence), but a genuine macro strategy. It has to do a pretty good contain to work really well, but you can easily take multiple bases and it gives a very strong style. Dies to colossi and badly :'(
See, that's what I mean by dismissal by people. Posters just spout counters to units and give that as an explanation for why shit doesn't work.
MMM: the future of TvP?
Dies to colossi and badly.
...
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On December 02 2011 01:46 Asha` wrote:
zzz, predictably boring final game from marineking.
oh well, some good games dotted around today, looking forward to ST vs Prime!
What event is that?
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Get ToD to come cast again!!
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:46 Asha` wrote:
zzz, predictably boring final game from marineking.
oh well, some good games dotted around today, looking forward to ST vs Prime! What event is that?
The KSL has a team league part to it too, think it's tomorrow but I'm not 100% sure =)
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On December 02 2011 01:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:46 Asha` wrote:
zzz, predictably boring final game from marineking.
oh well, some good games dotted around today, looking forward to ST vs Prime! What event is that?
KSL friday.
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On December 02 2011 01:46 Shellshock1122 wrote:yea did you watch him vs Zenio the other day?
QFT. I hate to be the map-basher in this thread, but Crossfire is an all-in map due to the difficulty of taking a third safely. So I think it was a good idea, especially after Sage revealed aggressive early game tendencies in previous games.
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On December 02 2011 01:46 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:44 sAsImre wrote:On December 02 2011 01:28 SeaSwift wrote:
I think MVP-style Marine/Tank play off of multiple bases could be the future of TvP. Yes, I know it has its flaws etc, but it can look really convincing if played properly. It's not a gimmicky 1base build like the 1-1-1 (although it can be used as such, see MVP vs MC at MLG Providence), but a genuine macro strategy. It has to do a pretty good contain to work really well, but you can easily take multiple bases and it gives a very strong style. Dies to colossi and badly :'( See, that's what I mean by dismissal by people. Posters just spout counters to units and give that as an explanation for why shit doesn't work. MMM: the future of TvP? Dies to colossi and badly. ...
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalkesr, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out.
/e some typo
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France12886 Posts
MarineKing did some 2base marine/tank/starport against TT1 long time ago in GSL world championship, but it probably doesn't work against similar skills opponents, and anyone that work is found, either by koreans either by ThorZain :D (remember his "imba" thor build?)
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I haven't seen anything special out of Sage in a while. This includes his stream, GSL, and other appearances. I've tried to be optimistic watching his play... but I only like watching HerO these days.
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On December 02 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:
I haven't seen anything special out of Sage in a while. This includes his stream, GSL, and other appearances. I've tried to be optimistic watching his play... but I only like watching HerO these days.
I agree, I watched his stream today and was unimpressed in comparison with hero's. Hero's stream is so great to watch it's spoilt us I guess
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On December 02 2011 02:01 Poopi wrote:
MarineKing did some 2base marine/tank/starport against TT1 long time ago in GSL world championship, but it probably doesn't work against similar skills opponents, and anyone that work is found, either by koreans either by ThorZain :D (remember his "imba" thor build?)
2base timings with medivacs could work against non-robotic centric protoss build, you just contain him, throw down bunker, and laugh. MKP has his own timing with 2reactor rax 1fac from a 1rax expand (used it in game 1 against Sage). You can't die to all in but you've to do a lot of damage like Mvp did against MC against providence (and you transition into bio then)
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On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out.
That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end.
You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind.
The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage.
You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
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On December 02 2011 02:10 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out. That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end. You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind. The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage. You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win.
As Artosis will put it, its not a good way to play since people will figure it out sooner or later.
But i do agree it can be used in a BoX series to mindfuck your opponent. But it will never be the "main" army that we see in macro T v P games.
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On December 02 2011 02:10 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:58 sAsImre wrote:
Ok i'll try to explain you.
Tanks destroy stalker, but that's not a problem, marauders do it too. Zealots are light and you cannot hit them with your tanks, but your marines are suppose to clean this up. With godlike micro you could even target the sentries with your tanks to stop guardian shield. Until now it's ok and tanks are ok against Colossi. But there is one thing which is primordial that you can do: kite. Your marine have to protect your tanks, they've to stay at the front. And colossi just rapes marines. It's not even fun, your marines die in the blink of an eye, and upgrades made it even worse. You can add vikings but your marines will still disappear if they don't kite, and at this point you just go bio.
There is a reason why bio works late game vs protoss: you can avoid a good portion of the aoe with good control, kite colo/archons and snipe/emp ht.
Tanks/marines are really good to hold two base all in and one/two base timings all in, but as soon as the protoss gets enough colo it sucks. hard. I think you can kill most chargelots/archon build or at least contain them (Mvp vs MC on antiga shipyard a while ago) but you can't protect tank with marines once 3+ colo are out. That's better. At least you didn't just come out with "colossi" and act like that was the end. You act like the whole point of Tanks is to kill Stalkers, and Tanks serve the exact same role as Marauders. You are wrong on both accounts. The real purpose of Tanks is area control - something TvP is greatly lacking. You force Protoss into a certain position, you nullify Forcefields (and also GS to an extent... -2 damage from 35 is pretty minimal) and you allow a hard contain, which you really cannot do with marauders at all. I don't see how targetting Sentries is "godlike micro" at all. It just isn't, especially compared to bio control or Gateway armies. You can only not kite when Colossi come out. You're acting like Colossi emerge immediately at the start of the game. They don't - only after a certain amount of time do they come out, and you can delay this by pressuring heavily with Marine/Tank to force gateway units or Immortals, while you build up Vikings behind. The key to playing Marine/Tank vs Protoss is you have to put pressure on them. This does not mean "going all-in", which is an overused phrase in this community. But once you are on 2 bases, you have to do some damage, or at least make a contain. The plan here would be to force Protoss to make units and not tech up. Meanwhile, you can tech up and expand behind this contain while bringing units to the front and possibly scouting with Vikings if you want to, waiting for Colossi or for Protoss to make a too scary army so that you can just unseige and salvage your bunkers and go home, with a tech advantage and an economy advantage. You couldn't play it like traditional TvP. But that doesn't mean it won't work. Terran Seige tanks have lost a lot on the face of it since BW, but there are definitely compensations: Protoss units are now collectively weaker, more reliant on Sentries which seige mode renders near useless, Marines are far better and containing as Terran is easier, with Bunker salvage and Missile Turrets being so cheap.
Naama used this like 1year ago to win Dreamhack winter, there is a good reason to explain why it's failure.
You've to consider that if you don't all in nor want to face colossi you're on 2bases. Tanks are quite gas intensive, and if bio isn't, you can't afford medivacs/attack/defense upgrades + tanks. You've either to get a sick contain or all in him. The only way you can contain him if he doesn't go the robo path, which is possible, 2forges or even chargelots/archons are ok. But you're way behing in term of upgrades, and even infrastructure, so if your contain is broken without at least trading armies, you're doomed. Targetting sentries will be godlike if you need to focus fire colossi at the same time while not overkilling (depending on your upgrades, but 2tanks shot are enough if you use a bit of marine fire, not if you just rely on them ect... and you need to be extremely efficient with your tanks).
Then you get 3 bases, and 0 decent protoss will not get colossi against tanks/marine. So it's not the future at all, it just has a niche which is fine for timings/all in or 1 or 2 bases. (I'd prefer to be able (HOTS?) to play mech than marine tank if tanks are viable).
Btw if you play bio correctly during mid game you basically control the map, and even if you don't contain the protoss, drops are a sufficient threat to be sure that he doesn't spread too much.
You depend on the protoss tech path, and you have to start getting tank before scouting it, something I find personnaly awful, bio is much more versatile, allows you to almost everything (except a contain) you want to do with marines/tanks, and you can get quick upgrades, even a quick third and the godamn medivacs without fearing to miss a key timing.
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On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win.
You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is.
All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Naama used this like 1year ago to win Dreamhack winter, there is a good reason to explain why it's failure.
You've to consider that if you don't all in nor want to face colossi you're on 2bases. Tanks are quite gas intensive, and if bio isn't, you can't afford medivacs/attack/defense upgrades + tanks. You've either to get a sick contain or all in him.
Yup. The contain is what you would have to go for, or else just defend any all-in they throw at you. The difference is that when you contain, if they don't make units and stop teching, you can just attack and win at any time.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
The only way you can contain him if he doesn't go the robo path, which is possible, 2forges or even chargelots/archons are ok.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You certainly can contain if your opponent goes Robo after an expansion, because they then have to make the choice between:
a) not making units from the Robo and teching to Colossus (in which case you kill them) or
b) making Immortals and attacking headfirst into your contain, in which case once they make a couple of Immortals and an army you can retreat before they attack and while they were making only units, you have got an economy rolling back home.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
But you're way behing in term of upgrades, and even infrastructure, so if your contain is broken without at least trading armies, you're doomed. Targetting sentries will be godlike if you need to focus fire colossi at the same time while not overkilling (depending on your upgrades, but 2tanks shot are enough if you use a bit of marine fire, not if you just rely on them ect... and you need to be extremely efficient with your tanks).
Why are you behind in upgrades? If you forced units rather than upgrades (try defending marine/tank while going double forge... it isn't pretty), they don't have upgrades. If they went for upgrades, they should be dead. Infrastructure... what do you mean by this? And so far as them killing your army without you killing theirs... no shit, Sherlock ^_^ that's kind of how TvP always works.
I still don't understand why targetting sentries is "godlike", even when Colossi are out (which you didn't mention in your first post regarding targetting sentries). The idea is not to use Tanks/Marines alone to kill Colossi - by the time Colossi are out you should have Vikings. That is the aim.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Then you get 3 bases, and 0 decent protoss will not get colossi against tanks/marine. So it's not the future at all, it just has a niche which is fine for timings/all in or 1 or 2 bases. (I'd prefer to be able (HOTS?) to play mech than marine tank if tanks are viable).
You will have 3 bases to their 2, better economy, better tech (having Vikings first). Again, you will HAVE to do the timing to get ahead: playing Marine/Tank passively doesn't work.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
Btw if you play bio correctly during mid game you basically control the map, and even if you don't contain the protoss, drops are a sufficient threat to be sure that he doesn't spread too much.
I'm not saying bio doesn't work - I'm saying that it looks to fall down in the lategame, once Protoss learn to defend drops. Marine tank doesn't let Protoss play in the same way and build up their "ideal" 200/200 army.
On December 02 2011 02:21 sAsImre wrote:
You depend on the protoss tech path, and you have to start getting tank before scouting it, something I find personnaly awful, bio is much more versatile, allows you to almost everything (except a contain) you want to do with marines/tanks, and you can get quick upgrades, even a quick third and the godamn medivacs without fearing to miss a key timing.
Why do you depend on the Protoss tech path? If they go anything other than Robo, you can outright kill them with your Marine/tank force early game. If they go Robo, you retreat. There are numerous ways to play out the early game - early expand, go for seige mode to pressure first or even just go 1-1-1 to mix things up in a BoX.
The contain is the most vital part of Marine/Tank. It does rely heavily on it. But containing Protoss is just SO good.
Anyway, enough theorycrafting. I fear I've kind of commandeered this thread with an off topic discussion, so sorry T_T
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On December 02 2011 02:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win. You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is. All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
There is one build who come before 10minute: 2rax reactor, 1factory, the MKP build. And you've 1 upgrade: siege mode, and you've to kill the natural. If you don't do that, you're either defending an all in or an heavy pressure build, which is fine, you'll come ahead or praying that he doesn't go colo while preparing tanks before being able to scout his tech, which is awful except as a mind game or a "snipe" build, but not as a standard, because that's you're original argument I remind you.
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On December 02 2011 02:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 poorcloud wrote:
Yeah but if i'm looking for a straight up game, its so difficult to do it. When you do marine tank, you're really banking everything on your push having to do the damage it needs, which is forcing no tech and no expansion. If u let him have colossus with range, you lose. If you take down his natural, you win. You don't have to kill the expansion at all. See MVP vs MC in GSL August. You're under the illusion that I'm talking about some kind of 1-1-1 all-in, or at least that going Marine/tank is a far greater investment than it really is. All you want to do is contain him for a significant amount of time. Given the amount of time it takes to get Colossus range when there is a Marine/Tank force knocking on your expansion, even if you are going Robo, it is easy to just expand behind the contain and make Vikings before he even has Thermal Lance.
Well MVP converted to bio after that successful contain. So do you agree that this marine tank style is a niche that you use to get ahead in order to get a late game of bio? And that bio is the only way i see to be the core component of the late game t v p, maybe some BCs or thors but thats for another discussion.
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On December 02 2011 02:32 poorcloud wrote:
Well MVP converted to bio after that successful contain. So do you agree that this marine tank style is a niche that you use to get ahead in order to get a late game of bio? And that bio is the only way i see to be the core component of the late game t v p, maybe some BCs or thors but thats for another discussion.
Maybe we are watching different games or something, but how I interpret your post you seem to be implying that the contain "ended" and then MVP just played out the game like standard MMM.
It wasn't like that at all, AFAIK. The contain lasted the whole game, just sitting outside of MC's natural with Seige Tanks and MM, with, yes some Medivacs as well eventually.
By the time the final battle began, there were still a ton of Marines and Tanks making the bulk of MVP's army, along with bunkers, a few Banshees, a few Marauders, a few Medivacs and some Missile Turrets. That was a really hard contain, and in no way was bio the core component of that force any more than bio is the core component of Marine/Tank in TvZ.
I agree with some of your general sentiment - that marine/tank style is a way to get ahead in the earlier part of the game. I don't agree that it is necessarily "niche" (that could mean anything here, but I think you mean it is unpopular/not used very much, which is what I've been saying a lot) or that you need to transition to bio for the lategame. Still, it's all really theorycraft until some high level Korean Terran like MVP plays a few more games with Marine/Tank.
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Oh yay, thanks. Definitely add to the OP :p
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On December 02 2011 03:12 SeaSwift wrote:
I agree with some of your general sentiment - that marine/tank style is a way to get ahead in the earlier part of the game. I don't agree that it is necessarily "niche" (that could mean anything here, but I think you mean it is unpopular/not used very much, which is what I've been saying a lot) or that you need to transition to bio for the lategame. Still, it's all really theorycraft until some high level Korean Terran like MVP plays a few more games with Marine/Tank.
What makes you think he and other pros haven't experimented with marine/tank in the lategame?
There's a million different reasons why bio is the better option in a long run, and the reasons for it are painfully obvious. Tanks just aren't built for the match-up, just like hydralisks aren't built for ZvT, its like jamming a square piece in a round hole. Yet we have protoss forum warriors trying to tell terrans its a viable playstyle against all evidence, whats up with that?
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I don't want to address it in this thread - I've already taken the topic faaaaaar away from the actual KSL, so expect a PM dood ^_^
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Just to put it out there guys, there SHOULD be another Team Match Bo11 at the usual time tomorrow, however I am unable to create a thread for it, as I have no information to go off of! If it does go live, there isn't currently a calendar event either. I'll do my best to get the information to you guys, but nothing yet.
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Not about this specific event, but I fucking love this league. Gives a chance to unknown players to earn themselves some money and also to get exposure, and it also lets people who cant afford GSL an opportunity to watch some top koreans. Cant thank whoever arranged this enough.
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EPT
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