EPTI LOVE both tournaments and what they do for the scene, but DH was setting a new standart the last 3 days. Next time you will have more renowned participants, im pretty sure of that.
DreamHack Winter 2011 Day 3 - Page 633
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MBH
Ireland796 Posts
I LOVE both tournaments and what they do for the scene, but DH was setting a new standart the last 3 days. Next time you will have more renowned participants, im pretty sure of that. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:01 ElephantBaby wrote: They are dominating and superior currently imo. Only 4 decent Koreans came here, they got an even playing filed, not like in MLG, none of them are eliminated by foreigners. That is not domination at all. Domination is what we had in Brood War, when a mid-tier B teamer could beat top foreigners by using Funday Monday strategies if they wanted to. In SC2, 90% of the Korean-foreigner games are actually regular games that can go either way with one player just edging it out in the end, and even the less known semi-pro foreigners can outplay highly rated Koreans in a game (and vice-versa obviously). There is no superiority. People need to watch more Starcraft and less statistics. Statistics never tell the real story anyway. | ||
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CutthroatCollapse
Germany309 Posts
On November 27 2011 22:41 Flonomenalz wrote: MLG actually does have better quality and quantity than DH imo. It's just that extended series tends to create bad finals. The crowds during finals at MLG are never THAT good because the finals are never THAT exciting. So people say "Oh DH was so great quality" but... that was just because it had really good finals. While MLG is really cool in general one thing sucks so hard about it: The final award ceremony, it always feels so rushed and like they say "lets get this over with as fast as possible". So MLG usually becomes worse towards the end (also because of boring finals in general) | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 27 2011 22:57 Talin wrote: Some players are better than the others at any given time, and some of them are Korean, that is the only fact. And even that is a meaningless fact if they show up at an event and don't bring their A game. The current SC2 Koreans are neither superior nor dominating as a whole so that you can determine tournament quality by counting how many there are. In a tournament with 64 players there, there were 4 Koreans (DRG, Hero, Puma and Genius). The only one to lose a series to a non-Korean was Genius, who lost one series to a PvP sniper (check Seiplo's winrates in TLPD) in... PvP, probably the most coinflippy matchup in the game. Genius is currently in Code B. All Koreans made it to the Ro16, and no Koreans were eliminated by foreigners. I think it's safe to say that Koreans are still far ahead of the rest of the world. Not as far as before, with heroes like Stephano, Huk, Idra and Naniwa consistently taking games of Koreans, and Gatored somehow slaughtering nearly ever Korean he comes across, but as a whole Koreans > the rest of the world. And with the BW players making a move towards SC2, I doubt this will change dramatically unless the rest of the world steps up its game massively. | ||
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ElephantBaby
United States1365 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:12 Talin wrote: That is not domination at all. Domination is what we had in Brood War, when a mid-tier B teamer could beat top foreigners by using Funday Monday strategies if they wanted to. In SC2, 90% of the Korean-foreigner games are actually regular games that can go either way with one player just edging it out in the end, and even the less known semi-pro foreigners can outplay highly rated Koreans in a game (and vice-versa obviously). There is no superiority. People need to watch more Starcraft and less statistics. Statistics never tell the real story anyway. Statistics does no involve emotions. When you watch the game, you will have favorite players or hate on some other players. Your conclusion will not be objective. Numbers won't lie. | ||
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chatuka
1351 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:12 CutthroatCollapse wrote: While MLG is really cool in general one thing sucks so hard about it: The final award ceremony, it always feels so rushed and like they say "lets get this over with as fast as possible". So MLG usually becomes worse towards the end (also because of boring finals in general) it's probably because MLG runs so long due to the tournament format. less players in the tournament and longer series would probably be a better way to present MLG. Also the 3 out of the 4 seeds were beaten, which is either going to be a pattern or strange blip at MLG. Probably, giving the seeds more advantages to progress would have been fair. Since they have earned the most prestige and rights to be advancing due to the fact that the seeds have won previous MLG's or ran deep into the tournaments. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:17 ElephantBaby wrote: Statistics does no involve emotions. When you watch the game, you will have favorite players or hate on some other players. Your conclusion will not be objective. Numbers won't lie. No, when you watch the game you will see what's going on in a game which is the whole point of spectating a game like Starcraft in the first place. Statistics are worthless - they might not lie, but that's only because they don't say anything in the first place. | ||
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Aodh
61 Posts
Imagine the rivalrly between LiquidHerO and SolidVillian.. god..... | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:17 ElephantBaby wrote: Statistics does no involve emotions. When you watch the game, you will have favorite players or hate on some other players. Your conclusion will not be objective. Numbers won't lie. No, when you watch the game you will see what's going on in a game which is the whole point of spectating a game like Starcraft in the first place. Statistics are worthless - they might not lie, but that's only because they don't say anything in the first place. On November 27 2011 23:16 SeaSwift wrote: In a tournament with 64 players there, there were 4 Koreans (DRG, Hero, Puma and Genius). The only one to lose a series to a non-Korean was Genius, who lost one series to a PvP sniper (check Seiplo's winrates in TLPD) in... PvP, probably the most coinflippy matchup in the game. Genius is currently in Code B. All Koreans made it to the Ro16, and no Koreans were eliminated by foreigners. This is exactly the flawed argumentation that bothers me. Seiplo's wins don't count because it's PvP, what? All of Seiplo's wins were actually very clean and he outplayed both Genius and HuK straight up (HuK is a Code S player btw, why doesn't he count?). Nani lost to DRG in games where if you watched both of them play recently, you would consider Nani to be the actual favourite - so that in itself is a bit of an upset given their proficiency in PvZ and ZvP respectively. Nani stomped him just a week ago at MLG. Puma and HerO reached the finals mostly on the back of playing their favourite match-ups (that they might very well be the best in the world at). There are a number of Korean players that got eliminated in the first group stage as well. They may not be highly ranked GSL players, but then again, neither are Puma and HerO if that's the criteria you're going for. TL;DR - Watch games, not numbers. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:20 Talin wrote: No, when you watch the game you will see what's going on in a game which is the whole point of spectating a game like Starcraft in the first place. Statistics are worthless - they might not lie, but that's only because they don't say anything in the first place. Oh dear god... you know the thread is not long for this world when you read the words "statistics are worthless". Please, stop it. Let's just abandon the Korea vs the World debate and talk about Dreamhack itself. If it means that much to you, let's just say that Koreans aren't dominating and leave it at that. | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
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Actraiser
United States47 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
I hope you're not talking about the player level, because Dreamhack's was way below MLG's. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:30 Talin wrote: No, when you watch the game you will see what's going on in a game which is the whole point of spectating a game like Starcraft in the first place. Statistics are worthless - they might not lie, but that's only because they don't say anything in the first place. This is exactly the flawed argumentation that bothers me. Seiplo's wins don't count because it's PvP, what? All of Seiplo's wins were actually very clean and he outplayed both Genius and HuK straight up (HuK is a Code S player btw, why doesn't he count?). Nani lost to DRG in games where if you watched both of them play recently, you would consider Nani to be the actual favourite - so that in itself is a bit of an upset given their proficiency in PvZ and ZvP respectively. Nani stomped him just a week ago at MLG. Puma and HerO reached the finals mostly on the back of playing their favourite match-ups (that they might very well be the best in the world at). There are a number of Korean players that got eliminated in the first group stage as well. They may not be highly ranked GSL players, but then again, neither are Puma and HerO if that's the criteria you're going for. TL;DR - Watch games, not numbers. TL;DR another flawed and biased argument worth not even replying to. if you want to count out hero's win for this dream hack i might as well say huk isn't great at all for most of his major victories since A. huk "reached the finals mostly on the back of playing his favorite matchup" in his last mlg title B. huk's dream hack win was complete bs cause he played probably one of the worst sc2 players who doesn't even focus on sc2, moon. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:16 SeaSwift wrote: In a tournament with 64 players there, there were 4 Koreans (DRG, Hero, Puma and Genius). The only one to lose a series to a non-Korean was Genius, who lost one series to a PvP sniper (check Seiplo's winrates in TLPD) in... PvP, probably the most coinflippy matchup in the game. Genius is currently in Code B. All Koreans made it to the Ro16, and no Koreans were eliminated by foreigners. I think it's safe to say that Koreans are still far ahead of the rest of the world. Not as far as before, with heroes like Stephano, Huk, Idra and Naniwa consistently taking games of Koreans, and Gatored somehow slaughtering nearly ever Korean he comes across, but as a whole Koreans > the rest of the world. And with the BW players making a move towards SC2, I doubt this will change dramatically unless the rest of the world steps up its game massively. totally agree with this. anyone else who can't has been living under a rock. most of you make flawed arguments when you fail to realize sc2's skill gap was completely lessened, meaning anyone with a good strat in sc2 can be the better man than the other player any given day. if you were to bring back pure mechanics in this game like broodwar foreigners would still be dead last. show me a foreigner who can give flash a run for his money and maybe then we can talk. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
First, about KR vs Foreigners I really don't understand why is it so hard for people to recognize Korea is where the true competition is at, and as such, Koreans are just better. This is only proven harder by the fact that aside from Stephano, all the foreigners who have any chance at all against Koreans in a regular basis, have Korean training or are playing there right now. This has been discussed so many times it's kinda derpy we're still at it, but it only takes looking at results and reality. It's also pretty obvious the difference between them has been narrowing in time, but not enough to consider them even remotely close, particularly if you consider the previously stated facts about Korean training. In DH's case, if we only consider "notable" koreans, only Genius lost a match to a foreigner, Koreans managed to get top 2 and only eliminated each other. If it weren't for brackets, it could easily have been top 4 all KR. I'd say Koreans dominated DHW 2011. Second, about the comparisons between DH and MLG. I'd say people need to separate what is production from games themselves. In the production department, DH has consistently raised the bar every tournament. This time, I'd say the points that were above are the tournament format, the final 16, and the final 4 on the DreamArena, the couch was just amazing, and DH always surprises fans with this sort of thing. MLG has always gathered the better players, which means as a whole, they have the better games, but, aside from the absolute MARVELOUS thing that is quad-view, their production is below DH, and their tournament format is goddamn terrible. MC vs Huk was the worst finals I have EVER seen, and it's not because it was PvP, it was because of the huge advantage Huk had. Extended series gives too much of an advantage, it makes finals boring. Plain Bo7 is a lot better. Bracket finals being Bo3 as well? Bad choice, Bo5 semifinals is just a lot better. I hope these issues are solved next year in MLG. | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
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zanga
659 Posts
On November 28 2011 01:17 bonedriven wrote: VODs on DH are unwatchable for me. I mean lag as hell (seems like a 10kb/s buffering). I can watch MLG vods HD without a problem. Am I alone? Just watch - and then to the right you have the games (in the playlist - "DreamHack Winter 2011 - Grand Finals Game 1") | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
This DH had a lot of quantity also, but imo it's a push between MLG and DH, both did many awesome things and both had some problems. Although I did like the quake game play from DH. | ||
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chocolatebunny
301 Posts
On November 27 2011 23:21 Aodh wrote: I give it a week before Puma leaves EG to join the newly created team Solid, and renaming himself villain Imagine the rivalrly between LiquidHerO and SolidVillian.. god..... i see what you did there. hats off to you  | ||
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