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Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
- p4NDemik |
On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 09:43 freewareplayer wrote:
A tier 2 unit countering a tier 3 unit is ok, but a tier 2 unit countering the complete tier 3 of a race is not right no matter how you look at it It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
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On October 23 2011 10:16 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked. it might have something to do with having 14k minerals banked and being nuked in three seperate locations at once?
That and the mental instability he fell in, imagine being nuked and dropped constantly while not being able to attack in fear of losing all your army and trade nothing.
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On October 23 2011 10:16 Medrea wrote:
The tournament as a whole was curiously run very very poor. Poor decisions on what matches to cast. Bad decisions to include close spawn maps. Everything else was stellar. GSL finals were outstanding and I hope blizzard learns how to run a tournament now that every GSL staff member was there to show them how it is done.
You can't think of it solely as a tournament. It's a convention first, showcasing all the new and exciting things, tournament second.
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On October 23 2011 10:15 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:14 Medrea wrote:On October 23 2011 10:12 SpiZe wrote:
I'm sure if I understand correctly... Nestea got booed ? No david kim did. he was accompanying nestea. Why did they boo DK?
Obviously, in starcraft 2 there is a race that is pretty good, kk I m out.
User was warned for this post
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On October 23 2011 10:15 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:14 Medrea wrote:On October 23 2011 10:12 SpiZe wrote:
I'm sure if I understand correctly... Nestea got booed ? No david kim did. he was accompanying nestea. Why did they boo DK?
Various reasons. Lategame ghost play is one of the few holes the dev team has yet to fill in as far as other races options, and we watched about 10 minutes of IMMVP using just ghosts pretty much.
Then David Kim comes out tooling a terran T-Shirt.
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On October 23 2011 10:14 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:09 dan1mal wrote:
its pathetic that everyone is complaining about the game being set etc. Why the fuck would nestea throw the game? And is it really that wierd for even a pro to leave a couple of units in some overlords after playing for like 10 hours?
and how the fuck are you going to deal with 20 full mana ghosts, siege tanks, and whole bunch of marines? MVP's army size was 50 food larger because he had mules.. and having 27 broodlords =
108 supply.. Ofcourse hes not gonna have 40 roaches supporting it, because thats mathematically impossible...
People honestly always seem to want to find the evil in everything, why cant everyone just shut up and enjoy a good game? Because it wasnt a good game, it was an awful game? A game isnt good because it has lots of units. This game was bad and people trying to figure out how this can happen. Because both players but especially nestea are just better then this.
they might well be better than this, but are they better than this after 10 hours of playing intense matches? and how was it such an awefull game? Anyone who actually looks at the game beyond just going "herp derp, idiot 27 broods derp" would see that MVP did like 9 million small drops all over the place to harras the zerg. It was an insane war of multitasking and mvp won.
What no-body realizes is that the decisions might look easy to make from an obs point of view. But are infact super hard to make in an ingame point of view ESPECIALLY after 40 mins of intense back and forth pressure.
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On October 23 2011 10:13 Larias wrote:
Crowd seemed to love it, but Nestea gave the game to MVP. The last game was nothing more than a showmatch. Undoubtedly why MVP ran off the stage after winning.
Undoubtedly?
If it was a showmatch, that's a weird fucking thing to do.
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On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked.
Do you really think nestea would need another base while he has 13k resources banked?
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NesTea didn't play well in the extreme late game with a extremely immobile composition against the best Terran in the world who was pressuring with drops + nukes and maxing on nukes.
THE FIX IS EEEEEEN!
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On October 23 2011 10:15 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:12 Krehlmar wrote:
He most definatly was not playing his normal NesTea level of gameplay and I think anyone with any basic knowledge of Starcraft II can admit that: A 3 time GSL champion does not build 27 broodlords and attack the most heavily fortified terran position on the whole map without any support, whilst not flanking nor (re)taking any expansions.
Goodnight folks. it was a smart decision but poorly executed. it's very easy to be the monday morning quarterback but in retrospect you have to consider that nestea had several infestors that with one fungal on the ghosts potentially ends the game.
Also he did have 4 overseers (but they were shot down).
Another thing to note is people make mistake sometimes (sometimes when you're under pressure and about to lose/win the final set, you start to act sloppier).
It was vikings + ghosts vs BL + Infestor + Overseers.
Can't believe people think the game is rigged especially considering it's the Blizzcon finals.
MVP has also consistently defeated Nestea in the past so it's not like he had no chance.
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On October 23 2011 10:17 tranmillitary wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked. He did, are u dumb?? watch the game again. MVP kept dropping constantly at the bottom expos. What was NEstea supposed to do against that defense?? keep sending non stop units to die then die???
MVP didn't drop the entire game until about the time the broodlords started coming out. Aside from hellion harass, Nestea went into the late game unscathed. Did YOU watch the game?
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On October 23 2011 10:16 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked. it might have something to do with having 14k minerals banked and being nuked in three seperate locations at once?
He should have done it for larvae alone. And there is no reason to have all drones long distant mining when you can make more bases. even if you have a large bank, you want to throw t3 waves at your enemy as zerg, make good trades and finally break them. you need that money sooner or later.
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On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 09:43 freewareplayer wrote:
A tier 2 unit countering a tier 3 unit is ok, but a tier 2 unit countering the complete tier 3 of a race is not right no matter how you look at it It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas. Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you:
The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
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On October 23 2011 10:17 PaeZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:16 Terranist wrote:On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked. it might have something to do with having 14k minerals banked and being nuked in three seperate locations at once? That and the mental instability he fell in, imagine being nuked and dropped constantly while not being able to attack in fear of losing all your army and trade nothing.
most definitely true. with 14k minerals and a split map situation with no end to the game in sight, mining more minerals is not that high of a priority when you're busy defending multiple drops, multiple nukes etc.
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On October 23 2011 10:18 gogonow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:13 Larias wrote:
Crowd seemed to love it, but Nestea gave the game to MVP. The last game was nothing more than a showmatch. Undoubtedly why MVP ran off the stage after winning. Undoubtedly? If it was a showmatch, that's a weird fucking thing to do.
He knew Nestea gifted it to him. He wanted to win it legitimately. Any other suggestions as to why he did that? He sure as hell wasn't smiling.
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On October 23 2011 10:18 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:15 Zane wrote:On October 23 2011 10:14 Medrea wrote:On October 23 2011 10:12 SpiZe wrote:
I'm sure if I understand correctly... Nestea got booed ? No david kim did. he was accompanying nestea. Why did they boo DK? Various reasons. Lategame ghost play is one of the few holes the dev team has yet to fill in as far as other races options, and we watched about 10 minutes of IMMVP using just ghosts pretty much. Then David Kim comes out tooling a terran T-Shirt.
Ok then, nerf Ghosts so that Terran has no late-game and is a cheese/all-in only race, good idea.
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Dear Blizz,
Thanks for running a big tourney with some huge names and excellent casters, all for free. Can't wait to see it again next year.
love
Weird
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 23 2011 10:18 Skiro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:15 Xadar wrote:On October 23 2011 10:09 Ilintar wrote:
Okay, I seriously don't see how people are claiming this game was a) bad, b) fixed. You have a game where the top pros are basically executing a dance of strategies and counters for 40 minutes and you claim the game was rigged because one of them came up on top?
To address the most common points:
1) Why didn't Nestea just make spines everywhere?
He did, MVP just picked them out one by one. You're so focused on Nestea "donating" Brood Lords, you're seemingly forgetting about the dozen or so drops MVP threw away before he actually started chipping into the zerg empire.
2) Why did Nestea just attack with mass Brood Lords?
He was probably actually counting on overpowering the ghost army - if he managed to kill those, he could basically demolish MVP's entire ground defense since remaking the ghosts would take such a huge amount of time. It might've worked, too, if not for the 15 or so vikings. There are only so many snipes the ghosts have energy for.
3) Why the doomdrop?
A lot of people are contradicting themselves here. First you say Nestea was stupid for not trading armies, then you criticize the doomdrop - for Nestea, this was probably the perceived most cost-efficient way of trading armies. He probably didn't take into consideration how quickly his overlords would get sniped.
4) Why not just make a ton of lings and throw them at the ghosts?
Because MVP had sensor towers and the ghosts were behind a nice line of PFs and siege tanks. Reportedly, mass lings don't do too well vs. either.
5) Why not just wait, bank minerals, save larvas and prepare for the terran attack?
That's exactly what Nestea tried to do. For quite a long time, he succeeded - he repelled all the drops and managed to defend the bottom expo. The problem is, once he let some drops do damage, his entire defense began to unravel due to the multitasking demands.
But you cant explain why he didnt rebuild his bases after losing them to drops despite having more than enough minerals banked. Do you really think nestea would need another base while he has 13k resources banked?
How would he spend his 13k if he doesn't have any hatch to produce units?
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On October 23 2011 10:12 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 09:43 freewareplayer wrote:
A tier 2 unit countering a tier 3 unit is ok, but a tier 2 unit countering the complete tier 3 of a race is not right no matter how you look at it It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. Troll. Without detection Banshee's also rape hydralisks and stalkers, ghosts own thors and battlecruisers and infestors beat everyone with patience.
you my friend are really a troll lol, banshees do not do extra damage to anything, ever seen banshees snipe and kite marines? yes all the time, the point isnt you make ghosts to kill lings but if lings happen to run near ghosts. Just cloak and attack move the lings. they will run away since they would just die since they have no detection and suffer extra damage from the ghosts light bonus. Point is, lings are not hard counters to ghosts, since they have psi armor type and only suffer bonus damage from archons. You just send your lings to swarm the ghost IF you can see it.
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On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 09:43 freewareplayer wrote:
A tier 2 unit countering a tier 3 unit is ok, but a tier 2 unit countering the complete tier 3 of a race is not right no matter how you look at it It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas. Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled. I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
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830
475
17
EPT
