On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
But if you can't even beat the person you're tied with, why are you considered better than him?
because you did better overall? The whole point of groups is to see how people do vs a variety of people, if you want h2h, why not make it a bracket from the get go.
Generally it is personal preference, both systems have their merit, however I am pretty sure you end up with more games being meaningless in h2h systems meaning it increases chance for collusion and throwing games.
On August 28 2011 14:20 holynorth wrote: Cultural differences are pretty weird. To me, head to head is an obvious first pick for tiebreaker. Apparently, other countries disagree.
I just feel as if two people are tied, yet one beat the other, that person should get the lead.
In the assembly example, there is a 3 way tie and in such cases even mlg goes to map score differential, because you can't determine h2h b/w 3 players.
In your dreamhack example. Idra and Grubby are both 3-2, but Idra won h2h so the point is moot because Idra would advance in either case.
Kas beat Naama and finished below him in the group btw. So my point isn't moot.
On August 28 2011 14:20 holynorth wrote: Cultural differences are pretty weird. To me, head to head is an obvious first pick for tiebreaker. Apparently, other countries disagree.
I just feel as if two people are tied, yet one beat the other, that person should get the lead.
In the assembly example, there is a 3 way tie and in such cases even mlg goes to map score differential, because you can't determine h2h b/w 3 players.
In your dreamhack example. Idra and Grubby are both 3-2, but Idra won h2h so the point is moot because Idra would advance in either case.
Assembly i did not watch so i cant comment on but i am pretty sure dreamhack used H2H to determine placement over win percentage. Would grubby not of advanced over idra because he had better win percentage then idra if that was the case.
Hmm I guess you're right in that case. I was looking at it Idra had 7 wins to grubby's 6 wins. In any case euros believe in map score because soccer does that. However I looked at the soccer leagues and they can't even agree what system to use.
UEFA Champions League group stage: 1. Head to head points, 2. Head to head goal difference, 3. Away goals between tied teams, 4. Goal difference, 5. Goals scored, 6. UEFA co-effecient points
Italy Serie A: 1. Head to head records, 2. Goal difference
World Cup group stage: 1. Goal difference, 2. Goals scored, 3. Head to head points, 4. Head to head goal difference, 5. Drawing of lots
English Premier League: 1. Goal difference, 2. Goals scored, 3. Playoff at neutral venue (if for title, relegation or Euro qualification, otherwise: teams share position)
Where are the champions league and italian fans at to back me up?!
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
But if you can't even beat the person you're tied with, why are you considered better than him?
Because I have won more games, overall. This is the point of Pool Play. To see who is the best player, overall. In the Brackets, the point is to see who is the best player, in thar specific match.
With the head-to-head as 1st tie-breaker, is possible to have a situation when a player with a 4-1 (9-6) record, will be ahead of a player with a 4-1 (9-2) record.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
But if you can't even beat the person you're tied with, why are you considered better than him?
Because I have won more games, overall. This is the point of Pool Play. To see who is the best player, overall. In the Brackets, the point is to see who is the best player, in thar specific match.
With the head-to-head as 1st tie-breaker, is possible to have a situation when a player with a 4-1 (9-6) record, will be ahead of a player with a 4-1 (9-2) record.
But in your case you haven't won more games overall because you both won 9 games.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
But if you can't even beat the person you're tied with, why are you considered better than him?
Because I have won more games, overall. This is the point of Pool Play. To see who is the best player, overall. In the Brackets, the point is to see who is the best player, in thar specific match.
With the head-to-head as 1st tie-breaker, is possible to have a situation when a player with a 4-1 (9-6) record, will be ahead of a player with a 4-1 (9-2) record.
But in your case you haven't won more games overall because you both won 9 games.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
But if you can't even beat the person you're tied with, why are you considered better than him?
Because I have won more games, overall. This is the point of Pool Play. To see who is the best player, overall. In the Brackets, the point is to see who is the best player, in thar specific match.
With the head-to-head as 1st tie-breaker, is possible to have a situation when a player with a 4-1 (9-6) record, will be ahead of a player with a 4-1 (9-2) record.
And it's a group. Not 1v1. So you have to be the best overall in the group. Not just over a particular opponent. If you've got the better record, you've done better in the group overall. Even if you lost to the player you are tied with.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
Both Tiebrakers systems are fine, as long as everyone know beforehand what it is gonna be. Both are used simultaneously anyway, just sometimes it is 1) h2h 2) differential and sometimes it is the other way around.
The argument that only series wins matter and match scores don't is pretty flawed though, at least within MLG. As soon as you have to play an extended series, you probably would wish to be down 1-2 and not 0-2. In this regard, MLG keeps every series meaningful to some extend.
And I don't think you have to play out all 3 maps in a differential system. A 2-0 is simply better than a 2-1, I don't see the need for every player to have played the same maps (to be a bit polemic, in soccer, where goal differentials matter in many european leagues, not all teams have scored the same amount of goals)
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
Yeah... The dude is going off on a tangent on this.
I wasn't able to watch the games today (work), but I want to watch the VODs. I have an MLG membership.
What I want to know is, is there any way I can find out what games were played on what stream and in order, without spoilers. E.g. something like yesterday's red/blue stream thread (today's is different! ) I need this so I can go through the VODs in the order in which they happened. If MLG's site is anything like last time there will be no way to tell.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
Yeah... The dude is going off on a tangent on this.
Its not a tangent at all. My point is That individual games aren't really important because its series wins that matter. Drg had a series win over select. Select had one less individual loss than drg.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
I can't believe that you're still arguing this.
The maps aren't constant and the race matchups aren't constant so using map results is a poorer tiebreaker than a winner take all head-to-head system which lets the better player earn it.
If they took map results you would have Select win the group because he 2-0'd Slush and DRG would get second because he 2-1'd Slush but he beat Select h2h. Mirror matchups are more volatile and unpredictable. Especially ZvZ. Losing 1 more game in a mirror matchup which has more volatility does not lessen beating the other guy head to head. This example perfectly shows why h2h is the 1st tiebreaker and map result is the 2nd. Move on already.
This isn't hockey or soccer where everyone plays on the same field and everyone is the same race.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
I can't believe that you're still arguing this.
The maps aren't constant and the race matchups aren't constant so using map results is a poorer tiebreaker than a winner take all head-to-head system which lets the better player earn it.
If they took map results you would have Select win the group because he 2-0'd Slush and DRG would get second because he 2-1'd Slush but he beat Select h2h. Mirror matchups are more volatile and unpredictable. Especially ZvZ. Losing 1 more game in a mirror matchup which has more volatility does not lessen beating the other guy head to head. This example perfectly shows why h2h is the 1st tiebreaker and map result is the 2nd. Move on already.
I already said that this discussion is pointless. But I really can't understand how a player with a worse win ratio is the better one.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
I can't believe that you're still arguing this.
The maps aren't constant and the race matchups aren't constant so using map results is a poorer tiebreaker than a winner take all head-to-head system which lets the better player earn it.
If they took map results you would have Select win the group because he 2-0'd Slush and DRG would get second because he 2-1'd Slush but he beat Select h2h. Mirror matchups are more volatile and unpredictable. Especially ZvZ. Losing 1 more game in a mirror matchup which has more volatility does not lessen beating the other guy head to head. This example perfectly shows why h2h is the 1st tiebreaker and map result is the 2nd. Move on already.
I already said that this discussion is pointless. But I really can't understand how a player with a worse win ratio is the better one.
Just like I can't understand how a person that can't even beat the person he's tied with can be considered better and more worthy to advance.
On August 28 2011 13:58 lorkac wrote: But I digress, it's okay that MLG doesn't care. I just wanted to clarify.
Nobody likes an ass.
We're trying to figure out which of two players is better. Both players have defeated the same number of opponents. Thus, the better player is more likely the one who won when playing the other. In other words, if we assume that Select is better than DRG, then it would make sense that Select would have defeated DRG. He did not, so we have to assume that DRG is more likely the better player.
You might say, "Oh, Select defeated blah 4 as well as 1 through 3, so he must be the better player!" However, blah 4 did not manage to get top two in his group, now did he? The blah 4 kill does not matter as much as DRG's kill.
All of this is FAR stronger than "Oh, I happened to have lost one fewer match than you while I was killing these other players, and killing you"
On August 28 2011 14:59 Kamikazess wrote: There's no need to play all 3 games. This is why it's a Best of 3 series. If you need more games to win the Bo3 than another player, this other player did better than you and should be ahead. Simple.
But, it's obviously a cultural thing, this preference for head-to-head or win/loss ratio.
And if you beat that player 2-0 (or even 2-1) you did better than him. Say a player goes 5-0 but wins all his series 2-1 so he goes 10-5. The next guy goes 4-1, but his only losses are to the first guy so he goes 9-2. 9-2 is a better record than 10-5, which guy is advancing? The guy that went 5-0 because individual games don't matter. Series matter. Select lost the series to drg, drg dropped a game to someone else that select beat 2-0. Drg deserves the higher seed.
And yeah dreamhack used h2h because I remember the confusion on who was advancing between him and grubby since idra won the h2h but grubby had a better record
As I have already said, of course the 1st tie-breaker should be the series record. But the 2nd, in my vision, should be the games record. The situation you proposed is different from what I'm talking about.
I can't believe that you're still arguing this.
The maps aren't constant and the race matchups aren't constant so using map results is a poorer tiebreaker than a winner take all head-to-head system which lets the better player earn it.
If they took map results you would have Select win the group because he 2-0'd Slush and DRG would get second because he 2-1'd Slush but he beat Select h2h. Mirror matchups are more volatile and unpredictable. Especially ZvZ. Losing 1 more game in a mirror matchup which has more volatility does not lessen beating the other guy head to head. This example perfectly shows why h2h is the 1st tiebreaker and map result is the 2nd. Move on already.
I already said that this discussion is pointless. But I really can't understand how a player with a worse win ratio is the better one.
Because he played the other guy and beat him. That's usually how they determine who is better in competitive play.
EPT
) I need this so I can go through the VODs in the order in which they happened. If MLG's site is anything like last time there will be no way to tell.
