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Obligatory public note for all large tournament threads:
The following is a list of behaviors that will get immediate bans:
1. Whining about stream
2. Bashing other games
3. Flaming other users
4. Bashing players
5. Complaining about imbalance.
It is in no way complete. Keep in mind that there's a difference between pointing out that the SC2 and CoD streams were switched and whining about it (same thing on pointing out/asking about stream lag and whining about it, etc.). Also, just because you post something and aren't immediately banned for it doesn't mean you won't get caught. We'll be going through this thread very carefully.
That being said, enjoy today's games!
Time stamp: page 12, 6:54. |
On August 27 2011 13:12 Alvalanker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:09 Maghetti wrote:
WTF was that!!! Idra refusing to make banes and lings. HORRIBLE UNIT COMP. Even at the very end he was making mutas. Watch the recent zvts in korea, when the muta timings happen terrans would push and the zerg would make mostly banes instead to hold the push. Idra gets pushed by similarish timings and he makes....mass muta. Worst decision making ever. Who is he playing against that this style works? I have been a idra fan for a long time but that was just bad play. That wasn't tilting or anything, just fucking awful decision making. MAKE BANES!! The only thing that explains it, is that he was experimenting with something that he has been practicing in the EG house. The only way to try something new is to try it on the battlefield. He might have just been trying new things, I don't know. I am so confused.
That wouldn't explain idra rallying all his new units directly into the marines, or all the energy on his queens, or his high resource count. That was horrid play. Even his mechanics were garbage. I have been a idra fan for so long but that was horrible. Watching newly spawned mutas(the last unit he should have been making) fly directly into the marine ball was the saddest thing I have seen in weeks.
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On August 27 2011 13:31 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:28 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:24 dcsoda wrote:On August 27 2011 13:20 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On August 27 2011 13:18 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:11 Obscenity wrote:
Anyone who thinks 50 mineral units should do that much damage is delusional. Idra played those games masterfully from start to finish, dominated the map, and lost to some scumbag who could build barracks and hit A. Scrumbag? Doesn't that further prove the fact that Idra just isn't that good these days. I've seen low masters players handle similar situations much much better. Like I said before; Idra is all marketing but hes not a top tier player anymore. Move on. True. Idra isn't that great. And to be honest, I don't think his training with korea will help that much. But I still think he's better than Sjow... Idra was a complete beast the last time he came back from Korea and we've seen what Huk has done why would he not improve this time? Sjow beat him why talk about who we think is "better" when we just saw the match. Sjow was better today. Urgh. No he wasnt a beast, he lost shitload of games left and right to mediocre players after coming back from Korea. I believe Day9 even called it the "Korean curse" or something like that. He won IPL season 1 which had a HORRIBLE lineup. That's it. Im beginning to see the power of brand marketing. Wait... Beating Kiwi is horrible? Isn't everyone talking about what a beast Kiwi is? Huh. OHHHH RIGHT!! He's terrible for only winning an MLG, like Jinro, being Code S forever, like Jinro, beating Sheth in the finals of a tournament for a free trip to Korea 3 weeks ago, and 2-0ing Haypro. Man, losing to Bomber, one of the best TvZ in the world, and Dig.Sjow, a player Bomber called CODE S CALIBER on his twitter, makes him terrible.
Remind me which MLG Kiwi won, please.
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On August 27 2011 13:29 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:20 doffe wrote:On August 27 2011 13:16 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 27 2011 13:10 Slakter wrote:On August 27 2011 13:08 FighterHayabusa wrote:
Mutas are really terrible, and they shouldn't be that bad for their cost. To those saying that he engaged badly...he didn't have anything left, and he had plenty of banes, but about 15 of them died at once to one siege tank shot. Marines just do way too much DPS for the cost. First of all you´re talking imba in a LR-thread which is against the rules. Secondly, you´re wrong. You cant judge how good mutas are by looking at straight up fights just like you cant judge reapers based on straight fights. No, I'm talking about utility for cost, and it isn't there with any zerg unit except the Infestor and Brood lord. Everything else is basically a glass cannon or worse. Some do decent damage, but have pitiful health. The best unit in this game is the marine as far as utility for the investment. With stim they are absurd, and eclipse every unit in the game. Ive seen you discuss this in other threads aswell and you are still as misguided I see. Had zerg been a costeffective race it would be ridicolously OP. And besides, mutalisks cost is well worth it considering what they bring to the table. I must ask, at what level do you play the game? Simple curiousity to where your opinions come from (no BM intended). I myself is far from a pro but can stand my ground against master Ts and probably win half. I'm decent, but my level of play means just as little as yours. It is an argument from authority. Lets try to stay away from logical fallacies in a discussion. Now, I agree that Zerg isn't cost efficient. So you must always be ahead in economy. The problem lies in the fact that zerg is also supply inefficient, and you cannot satisfy both of conditions for the whole game. You can't because you can't have both more drones and more units when you are both at 200 food. The argument is that as zerg you shouldn't allow them to get to 200 food, but this relies more on someone else making a mistake than on your skill.
Actually, your level of gameplay does matter. You are clearly a bad player. The zerg doesn't have to "stop" them from getting to 200/200 you scrub. They can easily trade, and even if the zerg loses the battle, his reinforcement ability compared to both P and T makes it so he can slaughter the remainder because he is magically at 200/200 against while his opponent is not even close.
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Idra is probably going to say something like "I have to get 35 mutas because if Terran goes ghost mech, I have to kill it straight away with my mutas. If I get less mutas, I lose to ghost mech." I mean, seriously, I just want Idra to win so much it pains me to see him losing like this. The games were pretty bad for both players. Idra didn't harass well with his mutas, he had no ground army, he had hundreds of energy on his queens. DRG has minerals and gas less than 100 when he isn't teching. Idra has over 2000 minerals and no gas, and doesn't have enough larvae to support 50 more zerglings. Yet, DRG easily does, because his Queens have less than 50 energy and probably no more than 30.
He needs to work on his mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if his ZvP was better than his ZvT atm and that is saying something.
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On August 27 2011 13:31 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:28 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:24 dcsoda wrote:On August 27 2011 13:20 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On August 27 2011 13:18 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:11 Obscenity wrote:
Anyone who thinks 50 mineral units should do that much damage is delusional. Idra played those games masterfully from start to finish, dominated the map, and lost to some scumbag who could build barracks and hit A. Scrumbag? Doesn't that further prove the fact that Idra just isn't that good these days. I've seen low masters players handle similar situations much much better. Like I said before; Idra is all marketing but hes not a top tier player anymore. Move on. True. Idra isn't that great. And to be honest, I don't think his training with korea will help that much. But I still think he's better than Sjow... Idra was a complete beast the last time he came back from Korea and we've seen what Huk has done why would he not improve this time? Sjow beat him why talk about who we think is "better" when we just saw the match. Sjow was better today. Urgh. No he wasnt a beast, he lost shitload of games left and right to mediocre players after coming back from Korea. I believe Day9 even called it the "Korean curse" or something like that. He won IPL season 1 which had a HORRIBLE lineup. That's it. Im beginning to see the power of brand marketing. This is so true. IdrA was hardly even a beast in Korea, and winning IPL was pretty much meaningless as it had very few top level foreign players in it. Frankly, he is the most overrated player in the world, because of Artosis and E.G. - the two greatest hype producers in foreign starcraft.
He was Code S when he left. That is beast by any definition you care to use. I'm not sure who qualifies for a beast in SC2 by your guys standards then. Everyone is going to drop games but not recognizing the skill that is there is kind of silly.
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On August 27 2011 13:31 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:28 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:24 dcsoda wrote:On August 27 2011 13:20 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On August 27 2011 13:18 WhiteraCares wrote:On August 27 2011 13:11 Obscenity wrote:
Anyone who thinks 50 mineral units should do that much damage is delusional. Idra played those games masterfully from start to finish, dominated the map, and lost to some scumbag who could build barracks and hit A. Scrumbag? Doesn't that further prove the fact that Idra just isn't that good these days. I've seen low masters players handle similar situations much much better. Like I said before; Idra is all marketing but hes not a top tier player anymore. Move on. True. Idra isn't that great. And to be honest, I don't think his training with korea will help that much. But I still think he's better than Sjow... Idra was a complete beast the last time he came back from Korea and we've seen what Huk has done why would he not improve this time? Sjow beat him why talk about who we think is "better" when we just saw the match. Sjow was better today. Urgh. No he wasnt a beast, he lost shitload of games left and right to mediocre players after coming back from Korea. I believe Day9 even called it the "Korean curse" or something like that. He won IPL season 1 which had a HORRIBLE lineup. That's it. Im beginning to see the power of brand marketing. This is so true. IdrA was hardly even a beast in Korea, and winning IPL was pretty much meaningless as it had very few top level foreign players in it. Frankly, he is the most overrated player in the world, because of Artosis and E.G. - the two greatest hype producers in foreign starcraft.
Wait... Beating Kiwi is horrible? Isn't everyone talking about what a beast Kiwi is? Huh. OHHHH RIGHT!! He's terrible for only winning an MLG, like Jinro, being Code S forever, like Jinro, beating Sheth in the finals of a tournament for a free trip to Korea 3 weeks ago, and 2-0ing Haypro.
Man, losing to Bomber, one of the best TvZ in the world, and Dig.Sjow, a player Bomber called CODE S CALIBER on his twitter, makes him terrible.
See my previous post please. Stop the mindless anti-EG nonsense. Kiwi Top 8'd repeated MLGs, IdrA won MLG. I was referring to IdrA accomplishments with my post. Obviously. Kiwi ahs never been to Korea...
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On August 27 2011 13:29 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:20 doffe wrote:On August 27 2011 13:16 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 27 2011 13:10 Slakter wrote:On August 27 2011 13:08 FighterHayabusa wrote:
Mutas are really terrible, and they shouldn't be that bad for their cost. To those saying that he engaged badly...he didn't have anything left, and he had plenty of banes, but about 15 of them died at once to one siege tank shot. Marines just do way too much DPS for the cost. First of all you´re talking imba in a LR-thread which is against the rules. Secondly, you´re wrong. You cant judge how good mutas are by looking at straight up fights just like you cant judge reapers based on straight fights. No, I'm talking about utility for cost, and it isn't there with any zerg unit except the Infestor and Brood lord. Everything else is basically a glass cannon or worse. Some do decent damage, but have pitiful health. The best unit in this game is the marine as far as utility for the investment. With stim they are absurd, and eclipse every unit in the game. Ive seen you discuss this in other threads aswell and you are still as misguided I see. Had zerg been a costeffective race it would be ridicolously OP. And besides, mutalisks cost is well worth it considering what they bring to the table. I must ask, at what level do you play the game? Simple curiousity to where your opinions come from (no BM intended). I myself is far from a pro but can stand my ground against master Ts and probably win half. I'm decent, but my level of play means just as little as yours. It is an argument from authority. Lets try to stay away from logical fallacies in a discussion. Now, I agree that Zerg isn't cost efficient. So you must always be ahead in economy. The problem lies in the fact that zerg is also supply inefficient, and you cannot satisfy both of conditions for the whole game. You can't because you can't have both more drones and more units when you are both at 200 food. The argument is that as zerg you shouldn't allow them to get to 200 food, but this relies more on someone else making a mistake than on your skill.
Take it to the designated balance discussion thread. Your arguments are inane as shit and based on a series of assumptions that you never feel the need to actually back up.
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On August 27 2011 13:29 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:20 doffe wrote:On August 27 2011 13:16 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 27 2011 13:10 Slakter wrote:On August 27 2011 13:08 FighterHayabusa wrote:
Mutas are really terrible, and they shouldn't be that bad for their cost. To those saying that he engaged badly...he didn't have anything left, and he had plenty of banes, but about 15 of them died at once to one siege tank shot. Marines just do way too much DPS for the cost. First of all you´re talking imba in a LR-thread which is against the rules. Secondly, you´re wrong. You cant judge how good mutas are by looking at straight up fights just like you cant judge reapers based on straight fights. No, I'm talking about utility for cost, and it isn't there with any zerg unit except the Infestor and Brood lord. Everything else is basically a glass cannon or worse. Some do decent damage, but have pitiful health. The best unit in this game is the marine as far as utility for the investment. With stim they are absurd, and eclipse every unit in the game. Ive seen you discuss this in other threads aswell and you are still as misguided I see. Had zerg been a costeffective race it would be ridicolously OP. And besides, mutalisks cost is well worth it considering what they bring to the table. I must ask, at what level do you play the game? Simple curiousity to where your opinions come from (no BM intended). I myself is far from a pro but can stand my ground against master Ts and probably win half. I'm decent, but my level of play means just as little as yours. It is an argument from authority. Lets try to stay away from logical fallacies in a discussion. Now, I agree that Zerg isn't cost efficient. So you must always be ahead in economy. The problem lies in the fact that zerg is also supply inefficient, and you cannot satisfy both of conditions for the whole game. You can't because you can't have both more drones and more units when you are both at 200 food. The argument is that as zerg you shouldn't allow them to get to 200 food, but this relies more on someone else making a mistake than on your skill.
Lol, was there a concievable way to win? Did that way neccesiate the Zerg player completely exceeding the Terran player in skill? The answer to both of those is no. I don't know how you can possibly site this as a statement on balance, Idra just fucked up. It's equally as fragile for a Terran who loses his entire army if he doesn't stim on time, or siege on time, or marine spread perfectly on time.
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On August 27 2011 13:33 dcsoda wrote:
He was Code S when he left. That is beast by any definition you care to use. I'm not sure who qualifies for a beast in SC2 by your guys standards then. Everyone is going to drop games but not recognizing the skill that is there is kind of silly.
For sure, I was understating it a little, but everyone has to accept that being Code S in January is world's different to being Code S now. Almost all of the terrible people have been relegated to Code B, and all of the Code B gosus of back in that day have emerged and are pushing into Code S (Bomber, Puzzle, MMA, DRG in the future hopefully, and so on). Either way, his games today were terrible, and any objective observer can identify his mistakes starting with larvae management and injections, and then maybe unit composition too. Whether he should be considered on the same level as Sen, Ret, Nerchio, Stephano, Ret, Sheth as a top level foreign zerg, I don't think so.
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On August 27 2011 13:26 Tokadub wrote:
He quits games in major tournaments faster then I would quit games on pointless custom games or even in ladder. What is his deal? There is no reason to quit games so fast. You need to try to be able to win from behind if you ever want to be a truly great player.
This. If you never play dicey games out, you will never win from behind or from a risky position, so not only do you not get the confidence to do so, that comes from actually GETTING those wins, you don't cultivate the actual skill, knowledge and experience of how to take advantage of another player's mistakes to climb back into a game that looks lost.
Not only does this deprive you of some wins that you might otherwise have, if you are supposedly a professional competitor, you are depriving your fans of seeing you try your best, you are depriving your body of work of some of the most memorable games of your career, or that your game or sport might produce (like Nestea deciding game over scFou in GSL semis), and you are potentially depriving yourself of championships, since you might need to win one or two scrappy games you should have lost on your way to a title (again Nestea/scFou).
Now maybe you can win a title where you are just much more skilled than the field, like the IPL/IGN that Idra won, but against a worthy field where you are among equals or maybe others are even better than you, you can't hope to win a tournament without scrapping out one or more games.
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On August 27 2011 13:29 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:20 doffe wrote:On August 27 2011 13:16 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 27 2011 13:10 Slakter wrote:On August 27 2011 13:08 FighterHayabusa wrote:
Mutas are really terrible, and they shouldn't be that bad for their cost. To those saying that he engaged badly...he didn't have anything left, and he had plenty of banes, but about 15 of them died at once to one siege tank shot. Marines just do way too much DPS for the cost. First of all you´re talking imba in a LR-thread which is against the rules. Secondly, you´re wrong. You cant judge how good mutas are by looking at straight up fights just like you cant judge reapers based on straight fights. No, I'm talking about utility for cost, and it isn't there with any zerg unit except the Infestor and Brood lord. Everything else is basically a glass cannon or worse. Some do decent damage, but have pitiful health. The best unit in this game is the marine as far as utility for the investment. With stim they are absurd, and eclipse every unit in the game. Ive seen you discuss this in other threads aswell and you are still as misguided I see. Had zerg been a costeffective race it would be ridicolously OP. And besides, mutalisks cost is well worth it considering what they bring to the table. I must ask, at what level do you play the game? Simple curiousity to where your opinions come from (no BM intended). I myself is far from a pro but can stand my ground against master Ts and probably win half. I'm decent, but my level of play means just as little as yours. It is an argument from authority. Lets try to stay away from logical fallacies in a discussion. Now, I agree that Zerg isn't cost efficient. So you must always be ahead in economy. The problem lies in the fact that zerg is also supply inefficient, and you cannot satisfy both of conditions for the whole game. You can't because you can't have both more drones and more units when you are both at 200 food. The argument is that as zerg you shouldn't allow them to get to 200 food, but this relies more on someone else making a mistake than on your skill.
Zerg is hardly supply inefficient. Roaches are, but zerg in general cant really be consider such. And letting a terran getting to 200 is not and issue really, its about how fas you can reinforce and where you engage the terran. Once you as a zerg is maxed you can trade very costinefficient and still get the better end of the deal, thats pretty unique for zergs.
And yes, what level you play at does matter, If your on a lower level your point of view in these situations are extremly misguided due to most likely neither macroing nor microing properly. Id say Id take a GMs opinion over a plat every day of the week due to this.
It seems like your watching SC2 from a purely mathetmatical point of view. This is not a working way of doing it unless you can find working variables for micro / macro / Maps / where you engage / scouting etc etc. Its about SO much more then simple dps/cost or hp/cost. Marines have the potential to be cost effective against banes but banes also has the potential to be extremly cost effecive against marines, no match can prova a balance here, only actual gameplay will show where the balance lies and as of now ZvT seems to be a pretty damn even MU.
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WOOO NANI! huk going downhill since going to eg
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EG not having a good MLG.
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LOL naniwa won just like huk past (mlg? I think it was?)
naniwa so boss :3 ^^
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On August 27 2011 13:41 IMBAkorean wrote:
WOOO NANI! huk going downhill since going to eg
>_> Really? We're going to play that card?
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On August 27 2011 13:28 xXFireandIceXx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 13:27 Alvalanker wrote:
I can't wait to see the next interview IdrA does. Lol, at least he GGed. Both games too.
Hilarious observation  I wondered why didn't he simply rage quit out of the game after losing in the same way TWICE.
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On August 27 2011 13:41 Stanlot wrote:
EG not having a good MLG.
How is Puma doing?
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EPT
