Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing; -Imbalance/race whine; -LoL vs the world arguments; -'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments; -any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.]
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
Is Terran favored or is Flash favored .
100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required.
Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
its been around for ages. protoss just forgot how to stop it and would rather rant on forums than work out a solution it seems.
Right. It's as simple as looking at old replays and just copying that. The top Protoss players are that dumb. Saying that they are not trying to work out a solution is just disingenous. They've tried to finding solutions for 4-gate PvP all through the start of the beta, had the most nerfs and yet are still the least likely to start QQ.
The fact is there are several Protoss builds before that punishes a 1-1-1 opening. If you invest in all 3 tech trees, it was easily punishable. But Blizzard decides that they want the game to move away from that. For example, they made it much easier for Zerg to defend their 2nd hatchery by nerfing the build times of races and made it ramps not blockable by 2 pylons. Everything they did was to facilitate a strategy that would encourage more bases. The end result was that there was no longer any Protoss aggression that would punish that 1-1-1 opening. Nobody wants the game to devolve into 1 base play again.
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
Is Terran favored or is Flash favored .
100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required.
Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
its been around for ages. protoss just forgot how to stop it and would rather rant on forums than work out a solution it seems.
Yeah makes perfect sense, Protoss players have weak memory, that explains everything!
Are people just woefully ignorant, or wilfully stupid when it comes to the 1/1/1 resurgence?
Warpgate nerf made it harder to hold, even with well-spent chronos you'll be behind in army supply compared to where you'd have been before. The build has been refined a bit as well so those two combine to make it very tough to hold. This is not some 'metagame shift' and is not a build that has returned solely to punish greedy tosses, it's a build that has grown in strength due to various balance patches. I respect the ingenuity behind it and it's a well-thought out build.
I was actually pretty hopefully that a solid response that wasn't a pure blind counter would have been found by now Still there's time yet, but at what stage do we have to agree that a build is broken?
WP Puma though, guy shouldn't be getting hate for using something that is within the game's rules.
In addition, the balance whining, misogyny, caster-bashing and player hating in this thread is fucking disgusting. I find it laughable that TL members can actually look down their noses at the Bnet forums if this thread and most recent tournament threads are anything to go by. Wise the fuck up.
On August 22 2011 04:51 Shrimpy949 wrote: I'm sure the majority of pro players (not all of them though) are not whining and are working on a solution. People should just be happy for one second. Things like this happen all the time. A player figures out a build that no one knows how to beat and all the other players of that race start using it and everyone complains until someone steps up and finds a counter.
Happened in Brood War all the time. Bisu (who was a no one) devastates Savior (who was a god among men) 3-0 using a new strategy and then protoss goes on to beat zerg left and right until zerg figured out a solution. Zerg starts using 2-hatch muta and no terran can survive. Now 2-hatch muta is nothing.
Things get nerfed and buff for good reasons and though people like to hate on blizzard they tend to make mostly good decisions. Don't just whine at what ever the flavor of the month is.
Just be positive for once...
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
I could understand why it would be possible to take a long time to counter 2-base, 3-base strategy with varied transitions. But taking a year to solve a 1-base rush with no variations in transition is just ludicrous.
But it won't take a year. I don't think people who's jobs depend on this game allow that (referring to pro-players). I think the fact that this 1-base strategy has no variations may indicate that the exact timing for it has been figured out and it has become nearly as strong as it can be. With Starcraft and with any sport (soccer and hockey for example you coach new players to attack before you can teach defense) really attack timings and tactics are developed first and the defensive timings follow based on those attack timings.
If it turns out the 1/1/1 is complete crap then there will be a small tweak but I don't know if we are there yet. I am not a pro and do not want to comment on overall game balance.
I was at gamescom today to watch IEM. pretty amazing to say the least, loved the atmosphere and I bet the koreans did too so hopefully they will keep on coming to these ''foreign'' tourneys )) Didn't expect puma to win 3-0 but props to him, totally deserved. ah ye shouldnt forget to point this out, although i bet IEM has heard it 90871402314897 times before :D MOAR CHAIRS PLEASE! ^^
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
Is Terran favored or is Flash favored .
100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required.
Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
1-1-1 was used once in a blue moon in even the earliest GSLs. This is nothing new. The timing just is faster and more refined.
On August 22 2011 04:51 Shrimpy949 wrote: I'm sure the majority of pro players (not all of them though) are not whining and are working on a solution. People should just be happy for one second. Things like this happen all the time. A player figures out a build that no one knows how to beat and all the other players of that race start using it and everyone complains until someone steps up and finds a counter.
Happened in Brood War all the time. Bisu (who was a no one) devastates Savior (who was a god among men) 3-0 using a new strategy and then protoss goes on to beat zerg left and right until zerg figured out a solution. Zerg starts using 2-hatch muta and no terran can survive. Now 2-hatch muta is nothing.
Things get nerfed and buff for good reasons and though people like to hate on blizzard they tend to make mostly good decisions. Don't just whine at what ever the flavor of the month is.
Just be positive for once...
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
The difference is that BW cycled through more maps and the fanbase was more determined and full of problem solvers. I recognize some of the complaining from playing WoW for so long, but I don't know where all of it comes from. Anyways, it sucks.
When sAviOr was getting ready to play Bisu before WCG (after having been stomped in MSL and PL stuff) the threads on TL were all about theorycrafting how sAviOr/zerg could win vs Bisu. The only outright balance complaining I remember was PvZ in 2006 and even then, people were quick to point out the map situation.
On August 22 2011 05:53 skrotcyk wrote: Fun thing; if it was Jinro beating MC, nobody would complain about balance at all and everyone would cheering jinro.
The bias on this site is really fucking sickening.
Sickening maybe. But at least there is 200+ pages of people talking about Starcraft. Even if a lot of it is complaining lol.
On August 22 2011 05:17 Mereel wrote: ''game one was just silly. why would you not immidiatly lose the game when an attack that you also invest half your workers in fails horribly? why in the FUCK would you be able to just, you know, do it again a few minutes later and then win?''
true words....it doenst make any sense and everyone knows it who isnt dumb!
yeah, the mechanic of mules is retarded...doing an ALL IN means that if it dies you should LOSE.
Wow the person you quoted put it perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised, if MC had held the 2nd all-in, that PuMa was still able to do a 3rd all-in that was threatening.
What race can all in 3 times in a game? Try sending half your drones with your baneling bust. Or try sending half your probes along with your 4 gate. There is no second chance unless your race is Terran.
On August 22 2011 02:13 shabby wrote: I wonder how long it will take before protoss does two things.
1. Use more hotkeys and individually split every single high templar. They did it in BW to avoid siege tanks, it's been done, it can be done and should be done.
2. Use another 3 hotkeys for zealots and turn off autocharge, then manually charge key targets for instakills and sick surface area.
There are only so many hotkeys. There are like what, 10 numbers? They have to hotkey Nexus, stargate, robo, stalkers, obs, sentries, collosus, and army. Even then its difficult
You can learn to switch around/remap hotkeys throughout the game, and with the tab function it's even easier to have a ridiculous amount of stuff on hotkeys and still spare a ton for army.
On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote: how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky. MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents. Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed.
good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
About MC, he insulted thorzain before their match in TSL. Here is the interview where the reference is made:
At 4:50
He uses the entertainer excuse a lot, so he can get away with his really disrespectful bad manners.
Funny thing is idra doesn't get allowed to use the same excuse.
Puma didn't tell the coach immediately, because he had a GSTL match, but told right after the match, in consideration that it might affect the team. Its like not telling your son you have cancer before he does a very important exam, i would do the same as puma. I respect puma a lot for this exact reason.
it's all over now man regarding Puma.. I do need know what MC did to a Thorzain at that match., but I will find out by myself. I am starting to get cognitive dissonance with this stuff regarding MC. If it's true that MC is alot worse that people think, I'll have to re-examine MC alot close.
played with Jinro's account and made smily faces to Thorzain? that's what i heard.
I'm not going to change my opinion because of NightEnd's word. This is the same guy who showed a complete lack of poise when he was rejected from NASL season 1, unlike Demuslim.
Regarding that video, I have no clue what MC did that was supposedly bad. He played against Thorzain on Jinro's account and made smilies? Someone off camera says something I can't understand (not sure if it's Thorzain or camera guy) "without the ...." (5:20) Other than that, I have no clue at all what was really bad manner--just that NightEnd claims it. The fact that this video was made on April 28th and there wasn't already a TL drama thread seems suspect in itself (that's not a real argument to discredit it, but just sayin').
On August 22 2011 04:51 Shrimpy949 wrote: I'm sure the majority of pro players (not all of them though) are not whining and are working on a solution. People should just be happy for one second. Things like this happen all the time. A player figures out a build that no one knows how to beat and all the other players of that race start using it and everyone complains until someone steps up and finds a counter.
Happened in Brood War all the time. Bisu (who was a no one) devastates Savior (who was a god among men) 3-0 using a new strategy and then protoss goes on to beat zerg left and right until zerg figured out a solution. Zerg starts using 2-hatch muta and no terran can survive. Now 2-hatch muta is nothing.
Things get nerfed and buff for good reasons and though people like to hate on blizzard they tend to make mostly good decisions. Don't just whine at what ever the flavor of the month is.
Just be positive for once...
Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
The difference is that BW cycled through more maps and the fanbase was more determined and full of problem solvers. I recognize some of the complaining from playing WoW for so long, but I don't know where all of it comes from. Anyways, it sucks.
When sAviOr was getting ready to play Bisu before WCG (after having been stomped in MSL and PL stuff) the threads on TL were all about theorycrafting how sAviOr/zerg could win vs Bisu. The only outright balance complaining I remember was PvZ in 2006 and even then, people were quick to point out the map situation.
I agree with the point about the fanbase being better problem solvers. We are in a time period when people tend to want things how they want them and they want them NOW! Thus why patches are demanded so frequently. It would be amazing if people would bring back that BW mentality: solutions not excuses.
I do still think most people are the type to problem solve and try to figure things out. Unfortunatly to do so on this forum you have to endure a lot of crap and also sift through a fair amount of shady data.
Watching Bisu vs sAviOr was actually my first pro BW match I ever watched so I didn't really understand until later what it meant and maps and such.
On August 22 2011 05:17 Mereel wrote: ''game one was just silly. why would you not immidiatly lose the game when an attack that you also invest half your workers in fails horribly? why in the FUCK would you be able to just, you know, do it again a few minutes later and then win?''
true words....it doenst make any sense and everyone knows it who isnt dumb!
yeah, the mechanic of mules is retarded...doing an ALL IN means that if it dies you should LOSE.
Wow the person you quoted put it perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised, if MC had held the 2nd all-in, that PuMa was still able to do a 3rd all-in that was threatening.
What race can all in 3 times in a game? Try sending half your drones with your baneling bust. Or try sending half your probes along with your 4 gate. There is no second chance unless your race is Terran.
Then I'm afraid we have to stop calling it an all-in. SC2 Terran and Zerg have both always had a capacity to lose an army and keep playing which Protoss lack, because Terran and Zerg can construct a meaningful army out of low-cost units and Protoss cannot. It is not an 'all-in' for Terran/Zerg to trade cheap units, workers included, for the expensive units of Protoss. It is Protoss's responsibility to find a way to preserve their high-cost units in these exchanges.
On August 22 2011 02:38 Loddigesia wrote: Congratulations Puma.
As a protoss player I am sad that MC that played really well, lost in a pretty severe fashion.
However, I can recognise some mistakes he made (in his army control for example) and as he has room for a better play, I think we cannot whine about it.
This post makes me happy, and I wish more people agreed with it. Puma did not play a perfect series and neither did MC and in fact, besides NASL Grand Finals, MC has not been in top form through most of July.
The fact of the matter is that while the score was lopsided, the outcome of each game was decided on a razor's edge, and that's exactly what everyone should hope for. Trying to calculate the quantity of mistakes each player made, as if every mistake is equal, is a fruitless endeavor and completely misses the point of competition. If MC had played better, he could've won that series 3-0. We don't know what the outcome would've been if both MC and Puma had corrected all of their mistakes, but the point is that people should be focusing on self improvement, and not exterior excuses to distract attention away from failures.
Moderating this thread was a lengthy process and a disappointing mess. I understand what it's like to be a fan(atic) and I dearly wanted MC to crush Puma, but sometimes you need to give second thought before pressing the post button and so many people failed to do it today. It's especially disappointing because things were looking up after Day 3-4's threads. Anyways, I hope some of you come away from this realizing that you don't need to broadcast your gut reaction to everything immediately. Sometimes there's more going on and sometimes you need to admit that the current state of knowledge is far from absolute, and there's a lot more work to be done by all the players and races.
EDIT: And of course, congrats Puma. I enjoyed watching your play.
On August 22 2011 05:43 Plansix wrote: It so true. I love the that peoples answer for 1-1-1 is to blind all in. It not like you do a lot of scouting with a 4 gate or proxy void ray. Plus, these two are easy to stop if they are scouted, unlike 1-1-1.
Well, to safely go for a tech-based build like 1-1-1 you need to be able to defend any all-in from Protoss. The Warp Gate nerf means that with 4gate vs a standard 1-1-1 build it goes from being several Stalkers and a Zealot vs just a few Marines in Bunkers with a tank on the way to being several Stalkers and a Zealot vs more Marines in Bunkers with a tank already on the field (can be repaired) with another on the way.
Ironically enough after the whining about 4gate in all matchups, with the old Warp Gate timing this wouldn't be much of a problem.
Congratulations anyway, Puma. Even if one race is better than the others, that isn't your fault and I can't blame you at all for trying to win. I haven't seen much of your play before, I hope we get to see a lot more soon.
On August 22 2011 05:17 Mereel wrote: ''game one was just silly. why would you not immidiatly lose the game when an attack that you also invest half your workers in fails horribly? why in the FUCK would you be able to just, you know, do it again a few minutes later and then win?''
true words....it doenst make any sense and everyone knows it who isnt dumb!
yeah, the mechanic of mules is retarded...doing an ALL IN means that if it dies you should LOSE.
Wow the person you quoted put it perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised, if MC had held the 2nd all-in, that PuMa was still able to do a 3rd all-in that was threatening.
What race can all in 3 times in a game? Try sending half your drones with your baneling bust. Or try sending half your probes along with your 4 gate. There is no second chance unless your race is Terran.
Then I'm afraid we have to stop calling it an all-in. SC2 Terran and Zerg have both always had a capacity to lose an army and keep playing which Protoss lack, because Terran and Zerg can construct a meaningful army out of low-cost units and Protoss cannot. It is not an 'all-in' for Terran/Zerg to trade cheap units, workers included, for the expensive units of Protoss. It is Protoss's responsibility to find a way to preserve their high-cost units in these exchanges.
At the same time, both Zerg and Protoss have the ability to quickly rebuild a near-maxed army while Terran doesn't, and has extremely vulnerable production.
The races all have difference advantages in that capacity, and MC didn't take advantage of it when he could. In G2, even though he was behind on upgrades, he had the huge supply lead and was floating minerals/gas. Any engagement with Puma would've been inefficient, sure, but efficiency wasn't his main concern then, as reproduction was his advantage. If he wanted to do a tech switch into colossi after that, it would've been an option. He was also woefully low on sentries the entire time, and FF would've aided his storms tremendously (not to mention guardian shield being amazing vs. T.)
EPT
. 
Still there's time yet, but at what stage do we have to agree that a build is broken? 
)) Didn't expect puma to win 3-0 but props to him, totally deserved. ah ye shouldnt forget to point this out, although i bet IEM has heard it 90871402314897 times before :D MOAR CHAIRS PLEASE! ^^
