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Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing;
-Imbalance/race whine;
-LoL vs the world arguments;
-'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments;
-any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.] |
On August 22 2011 03:25 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote:On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote:
how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky.
MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL
I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents.
Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed. good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC> MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion? wow, you don't even know SC2 history? how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation. MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game.. this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points. MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
classier?
REally?
puma was not getting paid clear and point...
if your not getting paid to work would you quit your job?
tahts why he left he joined an organization, which even though he felt distressed it did it
in the best interest of himself..
mc has won several championships so he has loads of money to *maintain* his so called * more class*
mc is awesome though ^^
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Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be.
Is Terran favored or is Flash favored  .
100%
I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required.
Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
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On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game.
the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong.
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I was there today. Such a nice event but some idiots (like that guy at xmg) that just took the mini frigde and went out of there. But b2T im so sad that i missed SC2 because LoL took ages but thats nothing negative just sad because SC2 finals where like the only reason i went there...
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I just got back home from it and what an amazing event. What an amazing time. So many games, so many booths, the SC2 was amazing, and despite being a really tall guy I was so shy when talking to the progamers/casters it was nerve wrecking, but they are the nicest people. The entire visiting crowd was so disgustingly nice it makes you want to live there and never leave.
Thank you Take and Mr. Bitter especially for being so extremely nice and doing so much for this event and this community. Despite getting in a giant traffic jam back home that took an hour, that was an amazing event. I felt like a small child meeting sport celebrities - what a time. The only thing that saddened me a bit was the finals, but the excitement of it all was enough to please. God, please let there be an MLG Europe near Cologne some time in the future! I can't wait for another event like this!
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On August 22 2011 05:29 Shrimpy949 wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be. Is Terran favored or is Flash favored . 100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required. Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
1-1-1 was used once in a blue moon in even the earliest GSLs. This is nothing new. The timing just is faster and more refined.
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On August 22 2011 05:29 Shrimpy949 wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be. Is Terran favored or is Flash favored . 100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required. Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
its been around for ages. protoss just forgot how to stop it and would rather rant on forums than work out a solution it seems.
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On August 22 2011 05:29 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game. the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong.
Nope. It used to be vulnerable to voidray and 4 gates. Both of those have been nerfed and it can be easily held. Also due to the warpgate nerfs protoss are even weaker in the early game, and without taking a 1 gate fe, you'll almost certainly die to 1/1/1, but 1 gate fe is also insanely risky and you ccan flat out die. The build is also different than it was before, more refined and more powerful.
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On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless.
I think people are complaining because no one wants a one base-all build to force another player to 1 base all in. Especially one where the second push can be just as scary as the first one. It wouldn't matter which of the two races were matched up.
Also, protoss can know this push is coming, from the start and be unable to hold it off. In the third game, MC got a full scout off with a probe and knew exactly what as coming. He still couldn't hold it off.
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On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless.
Thank you. All the whining about the 1-1-1 is ridiculous because he didn't lose to the 1-1-1.
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lol I swear, people who play this game really love to bitch about things and make excuses. Mana 2-0ed Puma in embarrassing games. MC loses 0-3 to Puma and now "Protoss is weak"? lol also for the people who said MC never lost 0-3 he actually lost 0-4 to oGs.Top before. It was MCs decision making which lost him those games, not the "balance" of the game, so shut up about it because it's irritating that 1 year after the games release people are still whining. As for the Protoss players, instead of copying MCs strats, create your own and come up with your own counters instead of trying to copy him every chance you get. No wonder he is countered so easily, people abuse his builds to no end, so Terran players will automatically know how to counter them because they play them so often. Seriously, stop crying.
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On August 22 2011 05:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. I think people are complaining because no one wants a one base-all build to force another player to 1 base all in. Especially one where the second push can be just as scary as the first one. It wouldn't matter which of the two races were matched up. Also, protoss can know this push is coming, from the start and be unable to hold it off. In the third game, MC got a full scout off with a probe and knew exactly what as coming. He still couldn't hold it off.
mc held off the 1/1/1 in game 1 and didnt attempt to hold it off in game 3. mcs decision making in those games cost him the game, not the power of the 1/1/1. mc didnt even use the ideal counter in game 1, and let the tanks seige, and still crushed it by simply being patient. watch and zerg or terran facing a tank push and ull see the same thing.
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On August 22 2011 05:32 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:29 Shrimpy949 wrote:Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be. Is Terran favored or is Flash favored . 100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required. Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago? its been around for ages. protoss just forgot how to stop it and would rather rant on forums than work out a solution it seems.
if there was an easy solution, toss would stop losing to it. its just to beat the build, the terran usually has to make a mistake...which usually shouldnt be the case.
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On August 22 2011 05:33 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:29 j0ker wrote:On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game. the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong. Nope. It used to be vulnerable to voidray and 4 gates. Both of those have been nerfed and it can be easily held. Also due to the warpgate nerfs protoss are even weaker in the early game, and without taking a 1 gate fe, you'll almost certainly die to 1/1/1, but 1 gate fe is also insanely risky and you ccan flat out die. The build is also different than it was before, more refined and more powerful.
it was never vulnerable to a 4 gate if the terran had any map awareness and void ray builds have hardly been nerfed. warpgate rush builds are nearly identical with 1 more CB used, and saying void ray beats 1/1/1 isnt really true either, its more of a micro war than anything. the terran should win though with proper bunker repairing and viking kiting.
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On August 22 2011 05:29 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game. the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong.
The Warp tech nerf means noticeably less rounds of units. Not only that, but it also means that early aggression is very unlikely from Protoss, significantly opening up the metagame for Terran.
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On August 22 2011 05:29 Shrimpy949 wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly, I always think BW is more imbalanced than SC2. In BW, it usually takes 1 or 2 year to solve a build. And terrans are certainly favored in BW all the time. The difference is that SC2 has much easier control mechanics which magnify the minor imbalance. I believe the solution will definitely come. The more blizzard patch, the more balance whining there will be. Is Terran favored or is Flash favored . 100% I'm sure we will look back on somethings and be like "wow that was bullshit" but that's hindsight. I am sure most things will work themselves out and the remainder will some how be adjusted in a small way by a patch if required. Out of curiosity when did 1-1-1 start becoming extremely popular? I started seeing it a monthish ago?
The build has been around since the beta. Jinro even used it in the earliest GSLs. I think the current meta-game favors it since we're seeing it more at a high level. It was better before the stim-nerf.
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On August 22 2011 05:40 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:33 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:29 j0ker wrote:On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game. the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong. Nope. It used to be vulnerable to voidray and 4 gates. Both of those have been nerfed and it can be easily held. Also due to the warpgate nerfs protoss are even weaker in the early game, and without taking a 1 gate fe, you'll almost certainly die to 1/1/1, but 1 gate fe is also insanely risky and you ccan flat out die. The build is also different than it was before, more refined and more powerful. it was never vulnerable to a 4 gate if the terran had any map awareness and void ray builds have hardly been nerfed. warpgate rush builds are nearly identical with 1 more CB used, and saying void ray beats 1/1/1 isnt really true either, its more of a micro war than anything. the terran should win though with proper bunker repairing and viking kiting.
It so true. I love the that peoples answer for 1-1-1 is to blind all in. It not like you do a lot of scouting with a 4 gate or proxy void ray. Plus, these two are easy to stop if they are scouted, unlike 1-1-1.
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On August 22 2011 05:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:29 j0ker wrote:On August 22 2011 05:26 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 05:23 j0ker wrote:
my god the whining in this thread is ridiculous
if the 1/1/1 all-in was overpowered terrans never would have went away from it in the first place and it would have been nerfed MONTHS ago. its resurgence is simply a function of the metagame. protoss used super aggressive builds for a long time, leading to terrans favoring relatively conservative bio expansion builds. this in turn lead to very greedy protoss expansion builds that they realized they could defend with enough sentries and proper forcefields. well, 1/1/1 counters those(sort of) and now it seems the entire protoss race has forgotten how to stop it. ill grant that it is a very, very strong 1 base attack and is probably tough to stop on some maps with certain spawns, but the notion that a build that has been used since beta, and hasn't really been buffed since, is just now broken is absurd. koreans work out builds 10 hours a day and this would have been the only tvp gsl build around by january of this year.
as for the series
game 1 mc had in the bag and got greedy. he stopped the all in cold and was ahead about 30 supply. at this point he chose to instantly expand again when puma was almost certainly going to re-all in here. teching to colossus before expansion would have been an easy win. he also engaged the 2nd push very poorly and right before charge finished.
game 2 was unfortunate for mc as he was outplaying puma most of the game, but had a pretty awful late game overall. the big battle he lost was the stand out moment, but the things leading into it and directly after played a big role as well. for one, mc maxed out almost purely on gateway. puma had an upgrade advantage and double digit medivacs, it should be no shock that he beat an army that was primarily zealot stalker. while not as extreme, supply count can be deceiving in this case just as it would if a zerg maxed roach against terran. they wouldnt expect to win the battle and a toss maxing stalker zealot with a sprinkle of hts shouldnt either. mc was around 2k/1k for a good amount of time before the big engagement. colossus at that stage of the game shouldnt be considered a sneaky switch but simply standard. terrans can handle colossus decently when given time, but it becomes an extremely difficult task when they are trying to pump out vikings to deal with 2 robo colossi. not sure why there is whining about bio beating gateway. bio thrashes gateway and always has. to compensate, protoss has 2 lethal forms of aoe. being on 5 base and using only 1 of them is a mistake. as for the battle itself, mc derped away his templarprism and clumped the ones that didnt get a plane ticket. 2 emps negated all but a few storms. puma was fairly sloppy with his clumping as well, but simply had too much bio and 2 many medivacs and won handily. mc then ran zealots 1 at a time up a ramp into pumas concave of bio and made the gg timing a good bit faster. considering his bank before hand, mc actually would have been able to afford losing that battle if he had added more production and chose the safer and better 4th location, but he didnt and lost quickly.
game 3 was too odd to give much analysis other than mc could have won with a blink raven snipe early or a blink barracks snipe late, and inexplicably forgot to get a probe out before puma attacked his southern base. was a pretty fun game regardless. It resurged because protoss was nerfed. They are no longer capable of dealing with it in an offensive manner or a defensive one. The different variations and nerfs to protoss obviously had an effect. Saying it would be nerfed if it was overpowered months ago is silly because it's a different game. the gateway nerf was minor and didnt affect this at all. 1/1/1 hits way after warpgate. amulet nerf isnt relevant. there hasnt been a balance change to this build at all in months and saying its powerful because toss got nerfed is flat out wrong. The Warp tech nerf means noticeably less rounds of units. Not only that, but it also means that early aggression is very unlikely from Protoss, significantly opening up the metagame for Terran.
Reverting the warpgate nerf wouldn't help at all versus the 1-1-1 all-in, and the extra 20 seconds doesn't delay your early game aggressive capabilities very much either...
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Are the VODs for the finals out?
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On August 22 2011 05:37 BlazeFury01 wrote:
lol I swear, people who play this game really love to bitch about things and make excuses. Mana 2-0ed Puma in embarrassing games.
In both games Puma did not 1-1-1 as the maps were more macro oriented ( terminus-Talderim ).
Puma did not 1-1-1 on Terminus vs MC either.
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EPT
