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Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing;
-Imbalance/race whine;
-LoL vs the world arguments;
-'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments;
-any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.] |
On August 22 2011 03:20 powerdawg96 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:19 mortalisx wrote:
This whine is so ridiculous. What do you guys expect? Remove Marines/Tanks and Banshees? It's just a good BO to punish a Toss who early expands.
yea man and i really like the way it also punishes protoss who don't fast expand. true siege up so that tank can shoot toss' future expansion, and setup a contain
But in a way, it kinda punishes Protoss for even thinking of coming down his ramp and expanding. Who the hell do they think they are?
More seriously, 1/1/1 seems to get closer to being held each time, so maybe it's fine. The problem though is that for now Protoss is blind countering the 1/1/1 (stargate phoenix off one base and risky 1gate FE) and it doesn't work that well. What will happen when Terran starts mixing in well disguised earlier all ins like 2-3 raxes and 1/1/1 expands? They could even try to proxy the starport to mess up timings (which seem so thin right now). That's what scares me when playing for the longer game against Terran: there is no really way to exactly predict what he's doing, because he could do some suboptimal build that is still very effective (like show a 2 rax reactor, cancel the second rax, add a second gas and 1-1-1)
I guess that it's the same for terran who tries to play a longer game against an all-innish protoss, except that atm, almost every single one of our said all ins are in fact not scary at all and are easily defended by standard T macro builds.
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On August 22 2011 03:28 eviltomahawk wrote:
The key to restoring the Protoss might and honor is to kidnap Flash during his 30-40 off after wrist surgery, then use his brilliant mind to brainstorm the strategies needed to counter all existing and future strategies. To keep him in line, inject a poison into his bloodstream that can only be temporarily mitigated by specially-marked bottles of Pocari Sweat.
He is going to need his ruler. Don't forget the ruler of death.
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On August 22 2011 03:28 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:23 Jayrod wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament? The general reason it *may* be imba: Because the only way to stop it (sometimes) is to do a very specific unit composition with a specific tech path that leaves you very behind against all other terran openers. Its strength and how difficult it is to scout leaves protoss players with the choice of blind preparing for it (which doesnt always work even if they build it) or blindly NOT preparing for it and hoping the terran player doesn't plan to all-in. Central to ALL of this is the fact that terrans can expand in their base, behind a wall, and still benefit from the extra MULES even if its not safe to fly their CC down. Zerg and toss expansions are out in the open for all to see and very vulnerable. The problem with 1-1-1 is actually that even when perfectly scouted and countered with the best possible build, it most likely results in an easy win for terran. At the highest level there's no build which can consistently beat 1-1-1. It's different in that from all other 1 base cheese builds, in that once scouted, they're usually easy to defend. Scout DT rush = win Scout 4 gate = win Scout VR cheese = win Scout 1-1-1 = Still lose
LoL.. good point.. I still won't be bad mouthing the balance of the game
MC had a chance to win game 1 against the puma 1/1/1. Hopefully Protoss will figure the 1/1/1 sooner than later.
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On August 22 2011 03:30 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:25 Whiteman103 wrote:On August 22 2011 03:24 Buff Terrans wrote:nerfing the MULE imo The eco is fine in SC2! Toss can chronoboost Probes like crazy and Zerg can produce like 15Drones at once. Also terrans needs his SCVs to Build, while Probes can mine while a building is warping in. this the mules even it out cuzz of all the minning time u lose making buildings It also means that any push from Terran is much stronger because even if they bring half their scvs they are equal on income as Protoss, allowing them to reinforce an "all in"
Mules are not magic man, if a Terran loses half of his SCVs he is definitively behind.
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On August 22 2011 03:28 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:21 chatuka wrote:
I feel that Puma is actually declining in popularity after this match, which is justice.
MC is actually increasing in popularity after this finals.
but MC needs to win the up and downs. cmon nerd baller you can do it. He really needs to win some matches to keep up with his popularity. People don't like Nestea that much when he beat MKP, but now, he is like the most popular player. Without better win ratio, popularity from personality will fade.
Huh? I thought this was one of the main reasons people liked nestea. He managed to overcome some bullshit strategy with pure skill. In my eyes at least, MKP getting to the finals in season 2 was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen. However, over time he eventually proved himself to be a solid player so he eventually won me over. And nestea remains, rightfully, the more successful player
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On August 22 2011 03:28 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:26 SafeAsCheese wrote:On August 22 2011 03:25 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote:On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote:
how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky.
MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL
I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents.
Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed. good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC> MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion? wow, you don't even know SC2 history? how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation. MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game.. this is so easy,and you can't even understand my I can make up stuff as well. MC kicks babies. this isn't made up.. read the Puma goes to EG threads. PUma totally BMd TSL..
I read once that MC kicks babies.
Source: TL thread
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I'm a terran player and also think the 111 is broken as fck LOL. MC played better his micro was better and his macro was better...... totally underserved win for puma..... david kim better fix that shyt,
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 22 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:28 eviltomahawk wrote:
The key to restoring the Protoss might and honor is to kidnap Flash during his 30-40 off after wrist surgery, then use his brilliant mind to brainstorm the strategies needed to counter all existing and future strategies. To keep him in line, inject a poison into his bloodstream that can only be temporarily mitigated by specially-marked bottles of Pocari Sweat. Pffft Flash would solve this in 10 minutes
No Bisu would have already solve this.....he would play 1base camp to Double Carrier and hit&run everything Terran has....or some other weird tactic xD
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On August 22 2011 03:30 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:10 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Increase forcefield range IMO -- allow us to contain 1-1-1-ers That would break the game incredibly badly, ZvP ? Just take away free PDD it is too powerful spell against early game protoss. There are no other early game uses for the spell anyway.
But the standard push without a raven is also very very strong, it won't solve the problem. Puma also got cloak which didn't pay for itself but it didn't matter really, because MC wasn't teching so the time wasted in cloack didn't matter.
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On August 22 2011 03:25 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote:On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote:
how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky.
MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL
I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents.
Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed. good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC> MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion? wow, you don't even know SC2 history? how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation. MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game.. this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points. MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
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On August 22 2011 03:30 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:10 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Increase forcefield range IMO -- allow us to contain 1-1-1-ers That would break the game incredibly badly, ZvP ? Just take away free PDD it is too powerful spell against early game protoss. There are no other early game uses for the spell anyway.
Hey, maybe we should just remove all spells, shit remove all units. Remove all the races and just leave marines for everyone!! Maybe then you will be happy!!!
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On August 22 2011 03:27 Micket wrote:
Game 3:
I thought Puma didn't play this game well at all, I saw 4 marines queued at a barracks when he was on 1 base, I mean wtf this ain't goody. But I think MC was too flustered from the last 2 games which he felt he should have won and so played even weirder. MC could have blink sniped the raven and dt pwned the army and that would have been game but he probably couldn't think straight. The game would have been even more one sided had Puma decided to expand instead of attack.
Your whole post seems very biased and only focused on MC faults but it's the quoted part that's the worst. Here's a breakdown:
Assumptions about MC's state of mind
Suggesting a blink snipe on a full energy Raven that's flying on top of a huge tank+marine-ball.
What really happened:
MC tried a very weird build because he was anticipating 1-1-1. 1-1-1 requires stupidly risky and weird play to even have a real shot at winning. MC tried but couldn't snipe the Raven without losing his whole stalker army to the marines+tanks and if Puma played it right he could easily PDD for 0 losses. Puma won.
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On August 22 2011 03:31 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:26 karpo wrote:On August 22 2011 03:24 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 03:16 Spicy Pepper wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 03:03 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 02:58 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 02:52 koolaid1990 wrote:On August 22 2011 02:50 MrDudeMan wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Not to be a douche, but your pointing out mistakes from a TWO time GSL winner? I'm sure MC knows what he's doing and has the control. Let's not take anything away from Puma here, he's just really good. And MC is really good as well. A lot of the people in this thread are commenting as if MC played perfectly and still lost. They are quick to forget about things like bad engagements, playing an econ style when you know your opponent is going to all in, losing a warp prism full of hts, getting a whole squad of ht's emp'd, separating a huge group of stalkers from the rest of your army. Ironically, whenever someone all-ins idra in a game, its usually people going on and on about how idra shouldn't drone/engage at that time. The thing is, he played much better than puma. At one point he was 170 to 130 supply. He stopped 3 drops like nothing. He took down 2 barracks losing little units He took down a command center turning into orbital. He was 2-2 vs 3-2 at the end. MC played better, its simply because amulet got taken away, if you mismicro even once, your fucked. MC mismicroed his prism, costing him the game, which is absolutely ridiculous cuz he was so far ahead. Look, he got 2-2 within the last minute or so of the game. For the important engagement he was behind on upgrades. Puma stopped upgrading because +1 armour against a protoss with half your supply is pointless. Puma killed his expo, Puma had marvellous reactions to storms (sitting for no more than 40% of a duration except when he knew he was talking out HTs) and he sniped MC's warp prism mid combat. He also engaged at fantastic angles, coming through on both sides of the watch tower, and he also had like 12 medivacs which MC did absolutely nothing abpout. MC got outplayed in game 2. Has nothing to do with balance. Take the same armies, the same ghosts, equalize the upgrades (not hard to do, MC learned this lesson against Thorzain) and shove them at any choke and I'll show you a dead terran bioball. 1/1/1 is clearly a different matter, but I hate all ins anyway. No, it wasn't. Last minute of the game was 3-3 upgrades. It's really not hard to move away from storms anyway. Compared to most high-level PvT, Puma let MC get away with wayyy too many feedbacks and storms. He didn't utilize snipe. Didn't utilize cloak. Missed several EMPs. Puma just simplied hotkeyed all his ghosts into 1 group. Failed in his drops. Didn't do any much harassing damage throughout the game while MC managed to blink into his base and control 2 sets of army at the same time. It's marvellous to think that I can watch a game and then someone can watch the same game and see something completely fictional. Game 2, MC had Puma on the ropes, pulled macro, macroed up, but didn't upgrade fast enough. Lost first engagement after that. Puma missed one or two EMPs, and then he got one off that hit his ENTIRE HT FORCE (which, btw, where all clumped together) as well as sniping the obvious Warp Prism HT drop. If someone killed my entire ghost force with a colossus I'd expect to lose the engagement. MC made a big mistake. It wasn't a small mistake. It was a big one. He let his HTs get caught by EMP before getting storms off. He engaged into a maurader heavy bioball with zealots up a ramp and then tried to charge the other side with stalkers. Neither was playing perfectly. Puma lost a drop or two. The engagement was bad for MC, and I knew the moment it was announced he was putting forges up as Puma was hitting 2-2 that it was going to end that way, just like it did with Thorzain. This balance whine deserves to be thrown at 1/1/1 but I don't know how the hell you expect terrans to deal with infestor play or even HTs if you gut EMP. Do you play the game? I play zerg, and I know a colossus can't take out a ghost. It takes 4 shots. I'm saying its a goddamn mistake. Whats wrong with you people, assuming that I don't play the game because they want to make a general statement. The point is, if I fuck up and lost my ghosts, chances are I'm gonna lose. It happens as quickly to terrans getting caught in bad storms (and they do bloody happen) as it does to protoss getting caught in bad EMPs. Even down to bronze/silver level you rely on ghosts to deal with protoss. Nerf ghosts as hard as half of the whining protoss in this thread are suggesting and you're going to end up reducing terran to being utterly incapable of dealing with deathballs again. MC lost his 3 or 4 HT's in a WP. Puma lost two dropships and all the units in them with 0 damage done. He also lost 2 production buildings early with MC losing nothing, yet he came back easily. Feels kinda weird to me. mc lost b/c of horrible unit composition. you really expect to beat higher upgraded mmm (10 full energy medivacs) + ghost, with less upgraded gateway units, zealots, stalkers, 2 sentries, hts (no archons or colossus)? mc had an advantage when he sniped 2 rax, and decided to make a shit ton of units, and had a big supply lead because he didn't tech as much. however, he didn't press on that issue, and let puma come back to even supply.
I think MC was going to try to out-macro Puma at that point in game two. MC was teching up himself. You are right. MC should have pressed the issue further when he sniped those two barracks. He was way ahead at that point
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On August 22 2011 03:28 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:21 chatuka wrote:
I feel that Puma is actually declining in popularity after this match, which is justice.
MC is actually increasing in popularity after this finals.
but MC needs to win the up and downs. cmon nerd baller you can do it. He really needs to win some matches to keep up with his popularity. People don't like Nestea that much when he beat MKP, but now, he is like the most popular player. Without better win ratio, popularity from personality will fade.
He has only lost to 1-1-1 type play and pvp for quite a while now.
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My analysis:
The reason mc lost is because:
1. He didn't calculate the base trade well.
One factor has to due with Mc suicide prism. After that Puma simply walked over him and
won. One game 2 Puma had better upgrades at better timings. He was uping viking air ups which
is very imporant for dealing with collosi. I dont think the Korean reactions are pretty ridiculous and its
fucking stupid to make all these judgements. Only progamers can play at a high level to call anything
imbalanced.....
see what i did thar?
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On August 22 2011 02:51 morningbreeze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:40 WickedBit wrote:On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote:wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon  Always look for the silver lining. Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans . I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub? The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
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MC lost his 3 or 4 HT's in a WP. Puma lost two dropships and all the units in them with 0 damage done. He also lost 2 production buildings early with MC losing nothing, yet he came back easily. Feels kinda weird to me.
Marines/marauder drops are cheap (500 minerals 100 gas for your typical drop) and there's a difference between losing a dropship attacking some distant base and watching the toss spawn 4 zealots and a HT to deal with it, and losing 4-7 HTs as a terran bioball is ramming concussive grenades down your stalkers throats.
Hell, watch the response of most toss to an expo they think they can kill. They'll happily throw away 4-5 zealots and most zerg will toss 400-500 minerals on a speculative failed attack that gets defended while doing little damage. It's not exactly a crippling thing unless it happens constantly. 8 marines and a medivac are not gonna be a difference maker unless you're throwing them away literally medivac after medivac.
He also didn't come back "easily". He just outplayed him after that point. MC was sitting on a 50 supply lead and sat back and expanded against a terran that was powering upgrades, didn't have to build any vikings at all and in the major engagement, lost his key units. It happens.
It's not indicative of balance when players make mistakes and one mistake happens to be worse than the others. games 1 and 3 are, but game 2 was a classic PvT.
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no point to say whats imba what not, it was obvious MC will go down to Puma, his recent results against terran say it all, its his worst matchup. the only protoss able to beat Puma @ IEM was MaNa.
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On August 22 2011 02:57 KainiT wrote:
To all those people here that say 1/1/1 (why nobody calls it the "destiny cloud fist build" ? :D) is not op: Please show us a game where a protoss player has won against a well executed 1/1/1 push, so we can learn how to beat it... And in the first game puma didnt win with his first attack cause he had no banshees, second push was with banshees and resulted in an instant win despite mc having more supply
The only times I seen it get beaten is when the Terran makes a mistake. Either unsieged tanks or engaging with half the army or something like that. Flanking is probably the best way to beat it but that won't work if they siege your natural.
There was one time though on Crossfire where MC delayed the push so much that he got like 6 Immortals and won.
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On August 22 2011 03:30 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:28 eviltomahawk wrote:
The key to restoring the Protoss might and honor is to kidnap Flash during his 30-40 off after wrist surgery, then use his brilliant mind to brainstorm the strategies needed to counter all existing and future strategies. To keep him in line, inject a poison into his bloodstream that can only be temporarily mitigated by specially-marked bottles of Pocari Sweat. Flash would be smart enough to play terran in SC2.
Hence the poison.
Stepping anywhere near Terran or BW means the vital Pocari Sweat becomes harder to attain. He must aid Protoss, for his own survival.
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EPT
