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Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing;
-Imbalance/race whine;
-LoL vs the world arguments;
-'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments;
-any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.] |
On August 22 2011 03:21 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:18 mordk wrote:On August 22 2011 03:16 Buff Terrans wrote:On August 22 2011 03:14 aut0mati0n wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 hyptonic wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament? Look at this season's GSL. Toss has yet beat 1-1-1 more than once. Most Protoss's are already eliminated P can't stop 1-1-1. So is it that Terran is currently OP or does Toss need a buff? This whine is so ridiculous. What do you guys expect? Remove Marines/Tanks and Banshees? It's just a good BO to punish a Toss who early expands. That is actually the biggest problem right now. 1-1-1 is definitely imbalanced, but the units themselves are not, which means fixing it would make terran a joke race. And no, it doesn't punish only early expands, it punishes every protoss build. Actually 1 base protoss is worse off against 1-1-1 than any FE. marine hp decreased to 40hp, combat shields now give +15 hp~ just sayin
Have fun against Zerg in the early game... its not that easy. :o
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The best thing to fix all the problem probably is nerfing the MULE imo. That thing just lead to so many all-in possible and there's no way you can stop 30 SCVs from mining in early game like MC but still doesn't hurt the economy at all. I mean there's no way you can hurt Terran econ while their army cost minerals more than gas, so you just need MULE anyway.
Other than that a lil help on ghost vs HTs battle would be nice. HTs can only fb one ghost and cost 50 energies while ghost could EMP 15 HTs with just one EMP. That's not fair at all.
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On August 22 2011 03:12 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:03 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 02:58 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 02:52 koolaid1990 wrote:On August 22 2011 02:50 MrDudeMan wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Not to be a douche, but your pointing out mistakes from a TWO time GSL winner? I'm sure MC knows what he's doing and has the control. Let's not take anything away from Puma here, he's just really good. And MC is really good as well. A lot of the people in this thread are commenting as if MC played perfectly and still lost. They are quick to forget about things like bad engagements, playing an econ style when you know your opponent is going to all in, losing a warp prism full of hts, getting a whole squad of ht's emp'd, separating a huge group of stalkers from the rest of your army. Ironically, whenever someone all-ins idra in a game, its usually people going on and on about how idra shouldn't drone/engage at that time. The thing is, he played much better than puma. At one point he was 170 to 130 supply. He stopped 3 drops like nothing. He took down 2 barracks losing little units He took down a command center turning into orbital. He was 2-2 vs 3-2 at the end. MC played better, its simply because amulet got taken away, if you mismicro even once, your fucked. MC mismicroed his prism, costing him the game, which is absolutely ridiculous cuz he was so far ahead. Look, he got 2-2 within the last minute or so of the game. For the important engagement he was behind on upgrades. Puma stopped upgrading because +1 armour against a protoss with half your supply is pointless. Puma killed his expo, Puma had marvellous reactions to storms (sitting for no more than 40% of a duration except when he knew he was talking out HTs) and he sniped MC's warp prism mid combat. He also engaged at fantastic angles, coming through on both sides of the watch tower, and he also had like 12 medivacs which MC did absolutely nothing abpout. MC got outplayed in game 2. Has nothing to do with balance. Take the same armies, the same ghosts, equalize the upgrades (not hard to do, MC learned this lesson against Thorzain) and shove them at any choke and I'll show you a dead terran bioball. 1/1/1 is clearly a different matter, but I hate all ins anyway. No, it wasn't. Last minute of the game was 3-3 upgrades. It's really not hard to move away from storms anyway. Compared to most high-level PvT, Puma let MC get away with wayyy too many feedbacks and storms. He didn't utilize snipe. Didn't utilize cloak. Missed several EMPs. Puma just simplied hotkeyed all his ghosts into 1 group. Failed in his drops. Didn't do any much harassing damage throughout the game while MC managed to blink into his base and control 2 sets of army at the same time. It's marvellous to think that I can watch a game and then someone can watch the same game and see something completely fictional. Game 2, MC had Puma on the ropes, pulled macro, macroed up, but didn't upgrade fast enough. Lost first engagement after that. Puma missed one or two EMPs, and then he got one off that hit his ENTIRE HT FORCE (which, btw, where all clumped together) as well as sniping the obvious Warp Prism HT drop. If someone killed my entire ghost force with a colossus I'd expect to lose the engagement. MC made a big mistake. It wasn't a small mistake. It was a big one. He let his HTs get caught by EMP before getting storms off. He engaged into a maurader heavy bioball with zealots up a ramp and then tried to charge the other side with stalkers. Neither was playing perfectly. Puma lost a drop or two. The engagement was bad for MC, and I knew the moment it was announced he was putting forges up as Puma was hitting 2-2 that it was going to end that way, just like it did with Thorzain. This balance whine deserves to be thrown at 1/1/1 but I don't know how the hell you expect terrans to deal with infestor play or even HTs if you gut EMP.
I believe MC was already down 40 supply when his HTs were EMP'ed. Didn't matter at all, since PUMA was going to finish him.
MC made some mistakes, like taking 5th base and engaging poorly. He should've exchanged armies and transitioned to Colossi.
though Puma didn't play really well except final battle, he was a little lucky.
Can't say much about that game, but usually protoss comes ahead in macro game, so props to Puma for winning that game.
But overall, I'm feeling less interested at watching SC2 now. Every damn tournament is won by random korean terran (Yes I call the likes of Puma, MMA, Polt, Bomber random) They don't show anything spectacular other than solid play or all-in. Thats not good for SC2 as esposrts.
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On August 22 2011 03:10 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament?
The general reason it *may* be imba: Because the only way to stop it (sometimes) is to do a very specific unit composition with a specific tech path that leaves you very behind against all other terran openers. Its strength and how difficult it is to scout leaves protoss players with the choice of blind preparing for it (which doesnt always work even if they build it) or blindly NOT preparing for it and hoping the terran player doesn't plan to all-in. Central to ALL of this is the fact that terrans can expand in their base, behind a wall, and still benefit from the extra MULES even if its not safe to fly their CC down. Zerg and toss expansions are out in the open for all to see and very vulnerable.
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Problem is as Dustin browder said many times. Terran was the only fully designed race in wings of liberty. Zerg and Protoss were kind of after thoughts and not as well designed. Terran has more units than any other races. Which means the other races have to be more skilled in order to beat them because they have to prepare for more possibilities than against a zerg or protoss players. More possibilities means more difficulty in reacting and more reactions. The more reactions increases the probability that the reactions need to be vastly different meaning if you make a single bad read your more likely to lose.
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On August 22 2011 03:21 morningbreeze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:07 xbankx wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 tdt wrote:On August 22 2011 02:51 morningbreeze wrote:On August 22 2011 02:40 WickedBit wrote:On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote:wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon  Always look for the silver lining. Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans . I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub? The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches. Give us some examples? I think just the opposite. Players say things are figured out but truth is Blizzard figured it out for players after months of failure to find an answer.. Zerg never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. Zerg never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Still having problems with banshees? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored. And so on. Perhaps you can list a few seemingly imba strats solved by players on thier own please? 2 base mutaling versus toss was solved by 6 gate timing. that was the only thing that is in my mind atm. Roach-ling all in zvp had its time. As did the collossus/voidray death ball. Both were solved without patches. Now I know that those two builds don't seem as powerful as the current 1/1/1 (and I agree they're not quite on the same level), but I think they're fair to cite. Moreover, my point is that the only thing more upsetting than imbalance in your favorite game is the community's general shift in attitude away from problem-solving and towards problem-identifying. You may very well be right about the 1/1/1, and my issue isn't really with you or with the build. Personally, I find it much more agreeable to take a grin-and-bear-it attitude, as the alternative (instant despair in the absence of immediate answers handed down by the almighty internet) is too depressing.
Wrong. Colo/Void ray ball was solved with the infestor buff.
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On August 22 2011 03:21 morningbreeze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:07 xbankx wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 tdt wrote:On August 22 2011 02:51 morningbreeze wrote:On August 22 2011 02:40 WickedBit wrote:On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote:wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining. Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans . I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub? The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches. Give us some examples? I think just the opposite. Players say things are figured out but truth is Blizzard figured it out for players after months of failure to find an answer.. Zerg never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. Zerg never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Still having problems with banshees? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored. And so on. Perhaps you can list a few seemingly imba strats solved by players on thier own please? 2 base mutaling versus toss was solved by 6 gate timing. that was the only thing that is in my mind atm. Roach-ling all in zvp had its time. As did the collossus/voidray death ball. Both were solved without patches. Now I know that those two builds don't seem as powerful as the current 1/1/1 (and I agree they're not quite on the same level), but I think they're fair to cite. Moreover, my point is that the only thing more upsetting than imbalance in your favorite game is the community's general shift in attitude away from problem-solving and towards problem-identifying. You may very well be right about the 1/1/1, and my issue isn't really with you or with the build. Personally, I find it much more agreeable to take a grin-and-bear-it attitude, as the alternative (instant despair in the absence of immediate answers handed down by the almighty internet) is too depressing.
Fungal + spore crawler buff + warpgate nerf solved the collossus/voidray deathball. Turtle Protoss now loses to Zerg due to lack of agression in the early game.
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nerfing the MULE imo
The eco is fine in SC2! Toss can chronoboost Probes like crazy and Zerg can produce like 15Drones at once. Also terrans needs his SCVs to Build, while Probes can mine while a building is warping in.
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On August 22 2011 03:23 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:10 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament? The general reason it *may* be imba: Because the only way to stop it (sometimes) is to do a very specific unit composition with a specific tech path that leaves you very behind against all other terran openers. Its strength and how difficult it is to scout leaves protoss players with the choice of blind preparing for it (which doesnt always work even if they build it) or blindly NOT preparing for it and hoping the terran player doesn't plan to all-in. Central to ALL of this is the fact that terrans can expand in their base, behind a wall, and still benefit from the extra MULES even if its not safe to fly their CC down. Zerg and toss expansions are out in the open for all to see and very vulnerable.
This and the fact that it isn't just these games. The last month of GSL has been a shitload of 1-1-1. It's not something new, it's been like this for a while now.
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To wrap it up, 111 is definitely problematic, don't tell me 111 is balanced, but no one know how to fix it without breaking Terran either...
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On August 22 2011 03:16 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:12 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 03:03 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 02:58 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 02:52 koolaid1990 wrote:On August 22 2011 02:50 MrDudeMan wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Not to be a douche, but your pointing out mistakes from a TWO time GSL winner? I'm sure MC knows what he's doing and has the control. Let's not take anything away from Puma here, he's just really good. And MC is really good as well. A lot of the people in this thread are commenting as if MC played perfectly and still lost. They are quick to forget about things like bad engagements, playing an econ style when you know your opponent is going to all in, losing a warp prism full of hts, getting a whole squad of ht's emp'd, separating a huge group of stalkers from the rest of your army. Ironically, whenever someone all-ins idra in a game, its usually people going on and on about how idra shouldn't drone/engage at that time. The thing is, he played much better than puma. At one point he was 170 to 130 supply. He stopped 3 drops like nothing. He took down 2 barracks losing little units He took down a command center turning into orbital. He was 2-2 vs 3-2 at the end. MC played better, its simply because amulet got taken away, if you mismicro even once, your fucked. MC mismicroed his prism, costing him the game, which is absolutely ridiculous cuz he was so far ahead. Look, he got 2-2 within the last minute or so of the game. For the important engagement he was behind on upgrades. Puma stopped upgrading because +1 armour against a protoss with half your supply is pointless. Puma killed his expo, Puma had marvellous reactions to storms (sitting for no more than 40% of a duration except when he knew he was talking out HTs) and he sniped MC's warp prism mid combat. He also engaged at fantastic angles, coming through on both sides of the watch tower, and he also had like 12 medivacs which MC did absolutely nothing abpout. MC got outplayed in game 2. Has nothing to do with balance. Take the same armies, the same ghosts, equalize the upgrades (not hard to do, MC learned this lesson against Thorzain) and shove them at any choke and I'll show you a dead terran bioball. 1/1/1 is clearly a different matter, but I hate all ins anyway. No, it wasn't. Last minute of the game was 3-3 upgrades. It's really not hard to move away from storms anyway. Compared to most high-level PvT, Puma let MC get away with wayyy too many feedbacks and storms. He didn't utilize snipe. Didn't utilize cloak. Missed several EMPs. Puma just simplied hotkeyed all his ghosts into 1 group. Failed in his drops. Didn't do any much harassing damage throughout the game while MC managed to blink into his base and control 2 sets of army at the same time. It's marvellous to think that I can watch a game and then someone can watch the same game and see something completely fictional. Game 2, MC had Puma on the ropes, pulled macro, macroed up, but didn't upgrade fast enough. Lost first engagement after that. Puma missed one or two EMPs, and then he got one off that hit his ENTIRE HT FORCE (which, btw, where all clumped together) as well as sniping the obvious Warp Prism HT drop. If someone killed my entire ghost force with a colossus I'd expect to lose the engagement. MC made a big mistake. It wasn't a small mistake. It was a big one. He let his HTs get caught by EMP before getting storms off. He engaged into a maurader heavy bioball with zealots up a ramp and then tried to charge the other side with stalkers. Neither was playing perfectly. Puma lost a drop or two. The engagement was bad for MC, and I knew the moment it was announced he was putting forges up as Puma was hitting 2-2 that it was going to end that way, just like it did with Thorzain. This balance whine deserves to be thrown at 1/1/1 but I don't know how the hell you expect terrans to deal with infestor play or even HTs if you gut EMP. Do you play the game? I play zerg, and I know a colossus can't take out a ghost. It takes 4 shots.
I'm saying its a goddamn mistake. Whats wrong with you people, assuming that I don't play the game because they want to make a general statement.
The point is, if I fuck up and lost my ghosts, chances are I'm gonna lose. It happens as quickly to terrans getting caught in bad storms (and they do bloody happen) as it does to protoss getting caught in bad EMPs. Even down to bronze/silver level you rely on ghosts to deal with protoss. Nerf ghosts as hard as half of the whining protoss in this thread are suggesting and you're going to end up reducing terran to being utterly incapable of dealing with deathballs again.
What they want is easy wins. Dealing with the cheesy all ins is far more important and clearly 111 all in is a problem.
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On August 22 2011 03:18 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:16 Buff Terrans wrote:On August 22 2011 03:14 aut0mati0n wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 hyptonic wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 aut0mati0n wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament? Look at this season's GSL. Toss has yet beat 1-1-1 more than once. Most Protoss's are already eliminated P can't stop 1-1-1. So is it that Terran is currently OP or does Toss need a buff? This whine is so ridiculous. What do you guys expect? Remove Marines/Tanks and Banshees? It's just a good BO to punish a Toss who early expands. That is actually the biggest problem right now. 1-1-1 is definitely imbalanced, but the units themselves are not, which means fixing it would make terran a joke race. And no, it doesn't punish only early expands, it punishes every protoss build. Actually 1 base protoss is worse off against 1-1-1 than any FE.
You could easily make stalkers more effective against banshees somehow without 'making terran a joke race'. Banshees are hardly ever used in late game TvP or TvZ anyway. Such a highly mobile, high DPS, cloakable unit probably shouldn't take so many hits to kill anyway.
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On August 22 2011 03:23 RedDragon571 wrote:
Problem is as Dustin browder said many times. Terran was the only fully designed race in wings of liberty. Zerg and Protoss were kind of after thoughts and not as well designed. Terran has more units than any other races. Which means the other races have to be more skilled in order to beat them because they have to prepare for more possibilities than against a zerg or protoss players. More possibilities means more difficulty in reacting and more reactions. The more reactions increases the probability that the reactions need to be vastly different meaning if you make a single bad read your more likely to lose.
he never said that
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On August 22 2011 03:22 tuho12345 wrote:
The best thing to fix all the problem probably is nerfing the MULE imo. That thing just lead to so many all-in possible and there's no way you can stop 30 SCVs from mining in early game like MC but still doesn't hurt the economy at all. I mean there's no way you can hurt Terran econ while their army cost minerals more than gas, so you just need MULE anyway.
Other than that a lil help on ghost vs HTs battle would be nice. HTs can only fb one ghost and cost 50 energies while ghost could EMP 15 HTs with just one EMP. That's not fair at all.
very nice and clever sentences.
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On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote:On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote:
how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky.
MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL
I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents.
Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed. good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC> MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee.
Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't.
which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
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On August 22 2011 03:12 Tuk wrote:
I dont understand why this series can be used to discuss balance at all.
Game 1 MC actually defended this "horribly broken 1-1-1" attack but some poor decision making (imo) meant the second push got through him.
Game 2 was just a game changing micro mistake and puma had some better positioning/upgrades (also mc could of had more gateways to resupply his army i believe)
Game 3 was stupid.
What i dont understand however is why toss players are so keen on expanding early even when the terran is doing some sort of blatant one base surely the terran will win on a build order level automatically, if the toss one based more then this wouldnt be such a problem?
it just seems "oh wow my fast expo build lost to a all in with workers etc must be overpowered"
One gate robo expand into 3 gate then later 5 gate immortal is thought to be one of the few ways to counter the 1-1-1. Protoss can't beat this on one base.
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On August 22 2011 03:24 Buff Terrans wrote:The eco is fine in SC2! Toss can chronoboost Probes like crazy and Zerg can produce like 15Drones at once. Also terrans needs his SCVs to Build, while Probes can mine while a building is warping in.
this the mules even it out cuzz of all the minning time u lose making buildings
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On August 22 2011 03:25 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote:On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote:
how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky.
MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL
I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents.
Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed. good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC> MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion? wow, you don't even know SC2 history? how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation. MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game.. this is so easy,and you can't even understand my
I can make up stuff as well.
MC kicks babies.
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On August 22 2011 03:24 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:16 Spicy Pepper wrote:On August 22 2011 03:12 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 03:03 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 02:58 Evangelist wrote:On August 22 2011 02:52 koolaid1990 wrote:On August 22 2011 02:50 MrDudeMan wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Not to be a douche, but your pointing out mistakes from a TWO time GSL winner? I'm sure MC knows what he's doing and has the control. Let's not take anything away from Puma here, he's just really good. And MC is really good as well. A lot of the people in this thread are commenting as if MC played perfectly and still lost. They are quick to forget about things like bad engagements, playing an econ style when you know your opponent is going to all in, losing a warp prism full of hts, getting a whole squad of ht's emp'd, separating a huge group of stalkers from the rest of your army. Ironically, whenever someone all-ins idra in a game, its usually people going on and on about how idra shouldn't drone/engage at that time. The thing is, he played much better than puma. At one point he was 170 to 130 supply. He stopped 3 drops like nothing. He took down 2 barracks losing little units He took down a command center turning into orbital. He was 2-2 vs 3-2 at the end. MC played better, its simply because amulet got taken away, if you mismicro even once, your fucked. MC mismicroed his prism, costing him the game, which is absolutely ridiculous cuz he was so far ahead. Look, he got 2-2 within the last minute or so of the game. For the important engagement he was behind on upgrades. Puma stopped upgrading because +1 armour against a protoss with half your supply is pointless. Puma killed his expo, Puma had marvellous reactions to storms (sitting for no more than 40% of a duration except when he knew he was talking out HTs) and he sniped MC's warp prism mid combat. He also engaged at fantastic angles, coming through on both sides of the watch tower, and he also had like 12 medivacs which MC did absolutely nothing abpout. MC got outplayed in game 2. Has nothing to do with balance. Take the same armies, the same ghosts, equalize the upgrades (not hard to do, MC learned this lesson against Thorzain) and shove them at any choke and I'll show you a dead terran bioball. 1/1/1 is clearly a different matter, but I hate all ins anyway. No, it wasn't. Last minute of the game was 3-3 upgrades. It's really not hard to move away from storms anyway. Compared to most high-level PvT, Puma let MC get away with wayyy too many feedbacks and storms. He didn't utilize snipe. Didn't utilize cloak. Missed several EMPs. Puma just simplied hotkeyed all his ghosts into 1 group. Failed in his drops. Didn't do any much harassing damage throughout the game while MC managed to blink into his base and control 2 sets of army at the same time. It's marvellous to think that I can watch a game and then someone can watch the same game and see something completely fictional. Game 2, MC had Puma on the ropes, pulled macro, macroed up, but didn't upgrade fast enough. Lost first engagement after that. Puma missed one or two EMPs, and then he got one off that hit his ENTIRE HT FORCE (which, btw, where all clumped together) as well as sniping the obvious Warp Prism HT drop. If someone killed my entire ghost force with a colossus I'd expect to lose the engagement. MC made a big mistake. It wasn't a small mistake. It was a big one. He let his HTs get caught by EMP before getting storms off. He engaged into a maurader heavy bioball with zealots up a ramp and then tried to charge the other side with stalkers. Neither was playing perfectly. Puma lost a drop or two. The engagement was bad for MC, and I knew the moment it was announced he was putting forges up as Puma was hitting 2-2 that it was going to end that way, just like it did with Thorzain. This balance whine deserves to be thrown at 1/1/1 but I don't know how the hell you expect terrans to deal with infestor play or even HTs if you gut EMP. Do you play the game? I play zerg, and I know a colossus can't take out a ghost. It takes 4 shots. I'm saying its a goddamn mistake. Whats wrong with you people, assuming that I don't play the game because they want to make a general statement. The point is, if I fuck up and lost my ghosts, chances are I'm gonna lose. It happens as quickly to terrans getting caught in bad storms (and they do bloody happen) as it does to protoss getting caught in bad EMPs. Even down to bronze/silver level you rely on ghosts to deal with protoss. Nerf ghosts as hard as half of the whining protoss in this thread are suggesting and you're going to end up reducing terran to being utterly incapable of dealing with deathballs again.
MC lost his 3 or 4 HT's in a WP. Puma lost two dropships and all the units in them with 0 damage done. He also lost 2 production buildings early with MC losing nothing, yet he came back easily. Feels kinda weird to me.
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On August 22 2011 03:25 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:23 RedDragon571 wrote:
Problem is as Dustin browder said many times. Terran was the only fully designed race in wings of liberty. Zerg and Protoss were kind of after thoughts and not as well designed. Terran has more units than any other races. Which means the other races have to be more skilled in order to beat them because they have to prepare for more possibilities than against a zerg or protoss players. More possibilities means more difficulty in reacting and more reactions. The more reactions increases the probability that the reactions need to be vastly different meaning if you make a single bad read your more likely to lose. he never said that
Right! In fact they sad that other Races like Toss and Zerg wont suffer under these circumstances but that was just a big LIE!
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EPT
