EPTOn July 29 2011 10:26 Yew wrote:
Yeah, and...? He said "They are the zergs single good unit late game" and I said broodlords are good too. Is this wrong?
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On July 29 2011 09:58 Mayor wrote:
He never said anything about infestor tech time, he just said using a late game unit that's expensive and takes a long time to get, which you have to survive long enough to get that is good with an expensive, slow spellcaster unit makes sense.
On July 29 2011 09:49 Yew wrote:
Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base.
On July 29 2011 09:40 Loki57 wrote:
So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous!
On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:
Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat.
On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:
KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base.
See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam.
Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade.
If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game.
On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:
idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff:
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On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat.
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat.
idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff:
Show nested quote +
/B]On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:
Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive).
San vs Nestea.
Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>).
+ Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG.
44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs.
Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch.
He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25).
The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game.
Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game).
Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact.
Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen).
Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]).
As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player.
Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet.
Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out.
On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Hongun won't blink as well as MC
NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed.
He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras
Hongun won't blink as well as MC
On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:
The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son.
On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less.
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less.
The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son.
NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed.
He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras
Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive).
San vs Nestea.
Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>).
+ Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG.
44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs.
Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch.
He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25).
The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game.
Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game).
Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact.
Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen).
Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]).
As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player.
Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet.
Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out.
I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base.
See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam.
Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade.
If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game.
Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat.
So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous!
Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base.
He never said anything about infestor tech time, he just said using a late game unit that's expensive and takes a long time to get, which you have to survive long enough to get that is good with an expensive, slow spellcaster unit makes sense.
Yeah, and...? He said "They are the zergs single good unit late game" and I said broodlords are good too. Is this wrong?
So you dont regard broodlords as a late game unit then I take it? I would say you are wrong.
