EPTDestiny v Korea - Showmatch Series - Page 40
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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Ryzu
United States369 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:02 Argolis wrote: He mad Of course he is. He's mad because more than half the people that are allowed to post on TL do nothing more than make ridiculous balance statements and constantly belittle player ability to the point where every thread, be it LR or Strategy turn into rotting cess-pools of useless, baseless dribble. Hell, he's not even in my top 10 favorite players, but the guy has got some serious points here, and all anyone can do is take a massive shit on them with no repercussions, simply because the internet affords them the ability to be retarded at will. | ||
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FireFish
Denmark228 Posts
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On July 29 2011 05:08 wei2coolman wrote: So before he won it, he was complete shit? It just meant he wasn't as proven. If someone is as good as the fanboys claim then the fanboys will be vindicated with tournament results soon enough. At any rate, Destiny actually reminds me of what Wolf once said about certain players during the GSL; they do the same style all the time, but because they do it all the time, they're so good at it and it's so refined that even though you know it's coming, you just can't stop it. Destiny seems to have refined the mass infestor build to a point that he can probably do it better than anyone else. It's sort of like Jinro playing as a macro terran but it just didn't work out that well at FIRST, but suddenly when he made it work because he figured out the timings and ways to smooth out the weaknesses through constant experimentation, it was incredibly strong. Of course, take what I said with a grain of salt and skepticism since I'm speculating. | ||
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
On July 29 2011 07:58 Destiny wrote: TL:DR: If you want to hate on me, that's fine, but if you're too fucking stupid to understand the basic tenants of strategy, don't talk about strategy. I agree but at the same time you can't stop people from talking about strategy for a strategy game on a public forum. Although it would be neat to experiment with a PRO or verified only forum I would think that would probably alienate and divide the community on TL. | ||
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iNSiPiD1
United States140 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:20 mindspike wrote: I agree but at the same time you can't stop people from talking about strategy for a strategy game on a public forum. Although it would be neat to experiment with a PRO or verified only forum I would think that would probably alienate and divide the community on TL. People blindly hating on Destiny and making excuses for why his opponent lost or Destiny won isn't talking about "strategy". Ever since I started following Destiny and watching his stream I've learned a lot of shit I didn't know before. Thanks to him I started to use Infestors a lot more, and guess what, if I suck with my micro I get obliterated. It's not an insta-win unit like everyone makes it out to be. What you guys need is a Terran or Protoss version of Destiny. Someone that's not going marines/tanks every freaking game against Blords and Infestors and wondering why they're losing. I swear to god a game can go 85 minutes and you'll never see a Terran make anything but marines and tanks. Why not explore a little bit? That's what Destiny did. Bottom line is that blindly hating a player is dumb, and there's a lot of blind hate directed toward Destiny because he was the first to produce results by refining an unconventional strategy and making it more mainstream. I versed a Protoss player who I BEAT and he told me that I should get lessons from Destiny because I sucked and I only won because Infestors are OP. I mean this sort of thing is pathetic. I can guarantee you that guy will go around hating Destiny because he produced players like me who can now efficiently counter the Protoss deathball that ran rampant for how long? I'm just saying... | ||
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hiyo_bye
United States737 Posts
On July 29 2011 07:58 Destiny wrote: I understand the h8rs, but srsly, here's how things seem to go - "lol destiny vs rain plz? rain rape him ez" "oh wow destiny win vs rain? rofl probably server lag" "oh wow both on NA? rain playing like shit probably" "oh rain played well? infester OP!" When I lose 3-0 or 3-1 to a player like Socke, you guys say it's "because he figured out his abusive strategy and raped it EZ PZ LOL!" You don't think I could have just played the same strategy, but maybe better? Maybe secure bases better, deny his better, keep up on injections/spread creep better? Very true; people need to stop trying to justify/rationalize Destiny's wins and start attributing them to good play. I'm personally impressed! | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:20 mindspike wrote: I agree but at the same time you can't stop people from talking about strategy for a strategy game on a public forum. Although it would be neat to experiment with a PRO or verified only forum I would think that would probably alienate and divide the community on TL. I understand, but it gives the strategy forum a bad name when people with 1k+ posts are making absolutely absurd statements. FOR EXAMPLE - On July 28 2011 07:48 Itsmedudeman wrote: instead of a showmatch there should be a funday where destiny can't go infestors and he goes up against mid master players same build every game 1118 posts. How many different ways does Idra play ZvT? Or ZvZ? Why don't you make fun of Z's that do muta/ling/bling vs T? Or hydra/roach/corrupter vs P? On July 28 2011 08:21 ondik wrote: this is so funny style. too bad it won't work out against top tier terrans because of ghost usage. 2088 posts. Bomber/Dragon/DDE/Major = scrub tier, I guess? On July 28 2011 08:25 Asha` wrote: Yes, infestors are the best unit in the game, have to stop as many as possible. I guess Rain figured with cloak energy maybe he could outright kill a bunch . Destiny's style is pretty boring for the hype, just turtling on infestors till the nigh unbeatable deathball. Rain needs better scouting on greater spire timing and faster ghosts, not sure why someone on his team wouldn't have mentioned it. 6452 posts. Infestors are the best unit in the game? How can you make such a loaded statement and not back it up? Seems more like a snide remark than anything else. If they're so good, why don't other Z use them, like, ever? And my style is "boring"? Compared to what? On July 28 2011 08:50 Asha` wrote: So bad from Rain, infestors are hilarious though. Same guy as before, who the fuck is this guy? What's his problem with infestors? On July 28 2011 09:06 Bagi wrote: Because ghosts are actually a big investment, and are also units that are very fragile. One mistake and it's a ton of minerals/gas down the drain that could've been more vikings and marines instead. Ghosts just haven't proven to be worth it when you can get equally good or better results by making more vikings and spreading them out. If your marines/vikings get caught by fungal, its less of an issue since they are pretty cheap and you have the tech for them anyway. Ghosts are just an alternative "counter" that sometimes pays off but usually doesn't. If you're gonna admit ghosts aren't the key to countering that unit comp, then you really shouldn't be rambling here about them either, at least not in that tone. 1824 posts. LOL. I don't even know how to respond. Ghosts are a big investment? Fragile? They can CLOAK and have almost twice as much emp as an infestor, are very small, move faster, and cast cast ALL of their spells while cloaked. They're also cheaper than infestors. I don't understand how this guy can post with a straight face. ---- Sorry, I could go on and on, and it sounds like I'm getting defensive in these threads, but I'm really not. I've said it a million times, I understand that being popular/whatever comes with a degree of haters, and I'm fine with that. I have no problem dealing with people who make rude/nasty remarks about me on the internet, because it's just the internet. What I'm worried about are high post count forum members making borderline-retarded statements concerning strategy. The whole idea behind earning "blue post" on teamliquid is a bit of a joke, it's like saying, "Hey, we understand the majority of the people who post about strategy are total idiots, so we put people who we know aren't morons in blue!" People just need to think about their statements a little more before they post in regards to strategy, I think. Especially people who post frequently. Having a high post count on a site like teamliquid should mean something. | ||
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Cyclone999
Canada331 Posts
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On the other hand I'm tired of seeing this thread on the top of all the tournaments page 2 days later, give it a rest. | ||
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:45 Destiny wrote: What I'm worried about are high post count forum members making borderline-retarded statements concerning strategy. The whole idea behind earning "blue post" on teamliquid is a bit of a joke, it's like saying, "Hey, we understand the majority of the people who post about strategy are total idiots, so we put people who we know aren't morons in blue!" People just need to think about their statements a little more before they post in regards to strategy, I think. Especially people who post frequently. Having a high post count on a site like teamliquid should mean something. Haha. Funny that you should mention high post count. Reminds me of the orange line on this graph (you've probably seen it since you are active on reddit): http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/9512/sc2ym.png | ||
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Yew
United States940 Posts
Destiny is a great player, but look just a few months ago from the ROOTDestiny showmatch series. He went 8-14, vs. mid level NA/SEA pros. Now he's beating code S level koreans in bo3/bo5 matches. I know he practices super hard and has gotten better, but seeing someone get this exponentially better in a short time is a super rare occurrence. There is no doubt he is a better player than he was before, but the infestor buff HAS helped him. Not only him, but Zergs in general. Take a look at this blog post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=248694 It shows the dreamhack and MLG columbus win rates for TvZ. Zergs have won 56% of games at Dreamhack and MLG Columbus!!! I don't know the ZvP stats, but I'm willing to bet they are Zerg favored as well. Look in GSL July. The top 8 had 50% Zergs. The ro4 had 50% zergs as well. It might have looked even more lopsided since Coca was taken out in a ZvZ. The finals are ZvZ as well. Here are some stats from the NASL: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NASL/Statistics PvZ stats were as followed: 52 wins for protoss 65 wins for Zerg. That's a 56% win ratio for Zergs in ZvP. ZvT was even more lopsided, 59 wins for terran 76 wins for Zerg That's a 57% win ratio for Zergs. Half (8/16, but Morrow played Terran vs. July) of the players were zerg in the NASL finals. Again, like the GSL, 50% of the players in the ro8 and ro4 were zerg. The 4 zergs in the ro8 had to play ZvZ vs. each other, so there could have been potentially 4 zergs in the ro4. After the infestor buff, Zergs have been doing so much better vs. Terran and Toss. Those are facts. The race many say was underpowered, is now winning 55%-60% of their match ups. Idk if Infestors are imbalanced, but Protosses and Terrans have definitely been struggling vs. them for the last few months. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13295 Posts
It's like saying Jaedong is boring because he always uses defilers. | ||
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Vehemus
United States586 Posts
You may not be able to see it because they're talking about you here, but think about it in these terms: I don't know how much you watch sports, but I'm a pretty big fan of football. Seeing as this is an international forum, I'm going to point out that I'm talking about American football here, but it doesn't really matter because it could be any two teams in any sport. You see it all the time. "My team is going to destroy your team for X reason" "X player is terrible, X team is terrible, they're going to get streamrolled" Whatever the case may be. However, once their team plays on Sunday and gets destroyed, they rationalize the loss by finding a bunch of reasons. "If we had made this play it would have been a lot different" "X player was playing like shit, you're lucky" "Game was rigged, the referees were paid off" Whatever it is. Rarely do you see die-hard fans actually saying something like "Wow, I guess the Bears really are the better team." You see it from the players, and they acknowledge their defeat when they're outplayed... but the spectators? Rarely. You're smart enough to understand this. People want to believe they're right and people want to believe that their team or their player is the best... or the worst, because they've made an emotional investment in that player. There's a lot of people who simply don't want to acknowledge that you're a great player that continues to improve and are going to find irrational or baseless reasons no matter what happens. Aaron Rodgers came in and replaced Brett Favre for the Green Bay Packers after a decade and a half... and nobody wanted to believe he was going to be any good. Despite putting up great numbers, people were saying his first year 'Yeah well Brett Favre took this same team to the playoffs last year... Aaron Rodgers can't do it." And the next year, Aaron Rodgers took the Packers to the playoffs but they lost in the first round. The same people who were hating on Aaron Rodgers were calling him a choker, saying he couldn't perform under pressure, etcetera. And the next year, Aaron Rodgers won the Super Bowl. Now, people for the most part have shut up, but you can see what kind of results are needed to make people admit their errors in judgment. And of course there are still people who say he's a product of his receivers or that the defense bailed him out or what have you. Those people will probably never be convinced and those people are extremely vocal in their opinion. All you can do is make doubters shut up by posting results. There's a lot of people who support Destiny but they're not usually going out of their way to shove their opinion down everyone else's throats. | ||
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
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Qaz
84 Posts
On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote: Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. Destiny is a great player, but look just a few months ago from the ROOTDestiny showmatch series. He went 8-14, vs. mid level NA/SEA pros. Now he's beating code S level koreans in bo3/bo5 matches. I know he practices super hard and has gotten better, but seeing someone get this exponentially better in a short time is a super rare occurrence. There is no doubt he is a better player than he was before, but the infestor buff HAS helped him. Not only him, but Zergs in general. Take a look at this blog post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=248694 It shows the dreamhack and MLG columbus win rates for TvZ. Zergs have won 56% of games at Dreamhack and MLG Columbus!!! I don't know the ZvP stats, but I'm willing to bet they are Zerg favored as well. Look in GSL July. The top 8 had 50% Zergs. The ro4 had 50% zergs as well. It might have looked even more lopsided since Coca was taken out in a ZvZ. The finals are ZvZ as well. Here are some stats from the NASL: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NASL/Statistics PvZ stats were as followed: 52 wins for protoss 65 wins for Zerg. That's a 56% win ratio for Zergs in ZvP. ZvT was even more lopsided, 59 wins for terran 76 wins for Zerg That's a 57% win ratio for Zergs. Half (8/16, but Morrow played Terran vs. July) of the players were zerg in the NASL finals. Again, like the GSL, 50% of the players in the ro8 and ro4 were zerg. The 4 zergs in the ro8 had to play ZvZ vs. each other, so there could have been potentially 4 zergs in the ro4. After the infestor buff, Zergs have been doing so much better vs. Terran and Toss. Those are facts. The race many say was underpowered, is now winning 55%-60% of their match ups. Idk if Infestors are imbalanced, but Protosses and Terrans have definitely been struggling vs. them for the last few months. Your SanZenith example is a bit of an exaggeration. San is still no pushovers, and is an important member of Hoseo. It's not as if he's complete crap now that his strategy is no longer valid. Simply putting Destiny's progress up to Infestor OPness is a bit ridiculous. While he does seem to use them every game i've seen (only saw a couple series), they're a pretty high tech unit. That means that he has gotten good enough at defending a variety of early aggression/rushes from high level pros. Personally, I've really been enjoying watching these games. They're seem much more dynamic than the standard. | ||
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Yew
United States940 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:45 Destiny wrote: I understand, but it gives the strategy forum a bad name when people with 1k+ posts are making absolutely absurd statements. FOR EXAMPLE - 1118 posts. How many different ways does Idra play ZvT? Or ZvZ? Why don't you make fun of Z's that do muta/ling/bling vs T? Or hydra/roach/corrupter vs P? 2088 posts. Bomber/Dragon/DDE/Major = scrub tier, I guess? 6452 posts. Infestors are the best unit in the game? How can you make such a loaded statement and not back it up? Seems more like a snide remark than anything else. If they're so good, why don't other Z use them, like, ever? And my style is "boring"? Compared to what? Same guy as before, who the fuck is this guy? What's his problem with infestors? 1824 posts. LOL. I don't even know how to respond. Ghosts are a big investment? Fragile? They can CLOAK and have almost twice as much emp as an infestor, are very small, move faster, and cast cast ALL of their spells while cloaked. They're also cheaper than infestors. I don't understand how this guy can post with a straight face. ---- Sorry, I could go on and on, and it sounds like I'm getting defensive in these threads, but I'm really not. I've said it a million times, I understand that being popular/whatever comes with a degree of haters, and I'm fine with that. I have no problem dealing with people who make rude/nasty remarks about me on the internet, because it's just the internet. What I'm worried about are high post count forum members making borderline-retarded statements concerning strategy. The whole idea behind earning "blue post" on teamliquid is a bit of a joke, it's like saying, "Hey, we understand the majority of the people who post about strategy are total idiots, so we put people who we know aren't morons in blue!" People just need to think about their statements a little more before they post in regards to strategy, I think. Especially people who post frequently. Having a high post count on a site like teamliquid should mean something. Infestors are currently the best unit in the game, Idk how you can deny that. Check out my last post where I go through the stats. | ||
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote: Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: /B]On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote: Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler + A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly. I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again. He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot). He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior). He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet. At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback. At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple). 39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain. 40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks). Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless. 42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. | ||
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Yew
United States940 Posts
On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote: idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. | ||
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