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On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC  On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
Ah my bad then, sorry for jumping the gun there.
But you can't deny that he didn't rode on the KA templars as much as your original post suggested. PLUS, in the GSL WC, he played without the KA upgrade and did reasonably well by taking out White-Ra, Dimaga, and a game off IMMVP and a really close game IMMVP almost lost though MVP still beat him 3-1.
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On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base.
See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam.
Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade.
If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game.
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On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game.
To me he just seems to come off as a Terran player (who happens to be a fan of a lot of other Terran players) expressing his frustration at Infestors in the ZvT matchup by attacking Destiny's credibility (as the representative of all things Infestor)
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On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game.
Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat.
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On July 29 2011 08:45 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:06 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:58 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 08:56 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:52 akalarry wrote:
watching this game is like watching colossus/stalker/sentry vs roach/hydra
pros should know how to adapt and learn. it's not rocket science or anything. does he REALLY think vikings can counter infestor/brood lord and can get ghosts 25 min into the game. You've been talking alot about these ghosts, how about sharing some replays/VODs where ghosts dominate? Whenever I see terrans get ghosts, they end up largely ineffective or not worth the cost. Might as well spam vikings/marines at their army and hope it breaks instead. Some terran pros I've heard say ghosts aren't really that effective of an counter, since they get easily sniped by fungals and BL fire. Also tbh I would be interested in learning ghost use. Currently I can't pull it off at all. even if terran gets ghosts, i still think zerg is way stronger. but how can you NOT get ghosts in that situation?????????? that's my point. not that ghosts would be op against that composition just think about it. Because ghosts are actually a big investment, and are also units that are very fragile. One mistake and it's a ton of minerals/gas down the drain that could've been more vikings and marines instead. Ghosts just haven't proven to be worth it when you can get equally good or better results by making more vikings and spreading them out. If your marines/vikings get caught by fungal, its less of an issue since they are pretty cheap and you have the tech for them anyway. Ghosts are just an alternative "counter" that sometimes pays off but usually doesn't. If you're gonna admit ghosts aren't the key to countering that unit comp, then you really shouldn't be rambling here about them either, at least not in that tone. 1824 posts. LOL. I don't even know how to respond. Ghosts are a big investment? Fragile? They can CLOAK and have almost twice as much emp as an infestor, are very small, move faster, and cast cast ALL of their spells while cloaked. They're also cheaper than infestors. I don't understand how this guy can post with a straight face.
I was gonna leave this thread alone, but since you insist...
The post you are quoting is simply a part of a bigger discussion taken out of context. My original point was merely to point out that ghosts are a hefty investment that does not always have the payoff people think. My original posts were asking for the people who were telling "just build ghosts" to post replays. The point I was making was of course that there are very few such replays: proper ghost usage has hardly been figured out, thus even top pros rely more on spread out mass marines and vikings instead. Isn't that a bit theorycrafty, to call for a unit you hardly even see?
Did I deny that ghosts are powerful units, ones with alot of potential? No. I did however post an excellent summary by Beastyqt, which sums up how many EU terrans feel about the situation. You probably didn't read it.
Even though I would love for my ghosts to have have enough energy for cloak, EMP and then snipe the enemy zerg tier 3 (6 snipes per BL and 14 per ultralisk, are they really supposed to counter zerg tier 3?), I find it pretty unlikely. All this requires the zerg to neglect his detection so the cloak is even worth a damn. The fragility comes from the fact that I don't have a cloud of BL's protecting my ghosts, and so on. I could go on but I'd just be repeating things that have been said a million times.
The bottom line was that ghosts right now aren't the ultimate counter to BL/infestor. There are multiple ways to counter any unit composition in this game, I've even seen some seeker missile play from Satiini against this unit composition, with good results. Maybe ghosts will become the standard, that is still up in the air. But saying "that pro is so dumb for not making ghosts, deserves to lose" is absolutely retarded.
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On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game. Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat.
So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous!
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On July 29 2011 09:40 Loki57 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game. Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat. So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous!
Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base.
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On July 29 2011 09:49 Yew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:40 Loki57 wrote:On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game. Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat. So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous! Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base.
He never said anything about infestor tech time, he just said using a late game unit that's expensive and takes a long time to get, which you have to survive long enough to get that is good with an expensive, slow spellcaster unit makes sense.
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On July 29 2011 09:58 Mayor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:49 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:40 Loki57 wrote:On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game. Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat. So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous! Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base. He never said anything about infestor tech time, he just said using a late game unit that's expensive and takes a long time to get, which you have to survive long enough to get that is good with an expensive, slow spellcaster unit makes sense.
Yeah, and...? He said "They are the zergs single good unit late game" and I said broodlords are good too. Is this wrong?
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There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed.
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On July 29 2011 10:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:
There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed.
Is that imba you cry? How about people aren't used to this strategy yet?
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On July 29 2011 10:41 Eschaton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:
There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed. Is that imba you cry? How about people aren't used to this strategy yet?
I play zerg, I always use infestors ALOT. Is that all you got?
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On July 29 2011 10:42 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:41 Eschaton wrote:On July 29 2011 10:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:
There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed. Is that imba you cry? How about people aren't used to this strategy yet? I play zerg, I always use infestors ALOT. Is that all you got?
He asked, are people not used to the strategy, not are people not used to using the strateegy.
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On July 29 2011 10:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:
There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed.
It might do you some good to look up the difference between tactics and strategy. If anything you should be claiming that he's using almost the same strategy each game.
In any case your argument is totally irrelevant. A Protoss army can and often does revolve around a bunch of HT and a Terran army can and often does not revolve around Ghosts. But people don't complain about that? There's nothing wrong with using a spellcaster as a universal part of your army. In fact, it's probably the only Zerg unit that has utility in all situations, whereas there are multiple units on the Terran and Protoss where that's true, but we can't have one? Wtf is that about?
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hey ipp i think youre doing great ^^
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On July 29 2011 14:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:
There doesn't seem to be much strategy in those games. Tech to infestors, then rely on tactics to win. When does he not go infestors? Or is infestors pretty much a universal part of any 2nd tier to late game composition?
Destiny is fun to watch, but if you can just go always pick the same 2nd tier unit irregardless of the opponents' strat, then imo the unit hasn't been well designed. It might do you some good to look up the difference between tactics and strategy. If anything you should be claiming that he's using almost the same strategy each game. In any case your argument is totally irrelevant. A Protoss army can and often does revolve around a bunch of HT and a Terran army can and often does not revolve around Ghosts. But people don't complain about that? There's nothing wrong with using a spellcaster as a universal part of your army. In fact, it's probably the only Zerg unit that has utility in all situations, whereas there are multiple units on the Terran and Protoss where that's true, but we can't have one? Wtf is that about?
I'm not very happy with the games where I stay on the same tech path all game long, but I do so when I feel like my opponent isn't responding well to my strategy. I've said that numerous times, especially in ZvP. If the opponent is simply going to hurr durr with VR/Coll, I will continue to mass infestor/ling (and ultra later) all game long, because VR/Coll will ALWAYS lose. It's not my fault my opponents are boring.
In my games vs HuK, you will see NUMEROUS tech switches as he responds appropriately by getting archon/templar, which forces me to switch back and forth between ling/infestor to broodlord/infestor/roach to hydra/roach/ling etc...etc...
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On July 29 2011 08:45 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 08:20 mindspike wrote:On July 29 2011 07:58 Destiny wrote:
TL:DR: If you want to hate on me, that's fine, but if you're too fucking stupid to understand the basic tenants of strategy, don't talk about strategy. I agree but at the same time you can't stop people from talking about strategy for a strategy game on a public forum. Although it would be neat to experiment with a PRO or verified only forum I would think that would probably alienate and divide the community on TL. I understand, but it gives the strategy forum a bad name when people with 1k+ posts are making absolutely absurd statements. FOR EXAMPLE - Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 07:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:
instead of a showmatch there should be a funday where destiny can't go infestors and he goes up against mid master players
same build
every game 1118 posts. How many different ways does Idra play ZvT? Or ZvZ? Why don't you make fun of Z's that do muta/ling/bling vs T? Or hydra/roach/corrupter vs P? Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 08:21 ondik wrote:
this is so funny style. too bad it won't work out against top tier terrans because of ghost usage. 2088 posts. Bomber/Dragon/DDE/Major = scrub tier, I guess? Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 08:25 Asha` wrote:On July 28 2011 08:23 travis wrote:
lmao, infested terrans are so ridiculous. i think rain really needed to get emps off on those infestors? Yes, infestors are the best unit in the game, have to stop as many as possible. I guess Rain figured with cloak energy maybe he could outright kill a bunch . Destiny's style is pretty boring for the hype, just turtling on infestors till the nigh unbeatable deathball. Rain needs better scouting on greater spire timing and faster ghosts, not sure why someone on his team wouldn't have mentioned it. 6452 posts. Infestors are the best unit in the game? How can you make such a loaded statement and not back it up? Seems more like a snide remark than anything else. If they're so good, why don't other Z use them, like, ever? And my style is "boring"? Compared to what? Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 08:50 Asha` wrote:
So bad from Rain, infestors are hilarious though. Same guy as before, who the fuck is this guy? What's his problem with infestors? Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:06 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:58 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 08:56 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:52 akalarry wrote:
watching this game is like watching colossus/stalker/sentry vs roach/hydra
pros should know how to adapt and learn. it's not rocket science or anything. does he REALLY think vikings can counter infestor/brood lord and can get ghosts 25 min into the game. You've been talking alot about these ghosts, how about sharing some replays/VODs where ghosts dominate? Whenever I see terrans get ghosts, they end up largely ineffective or not worth the cost. Might as well spam vikings/marines at their army and hope it breaks instead. Some terran pros I've heard say ghosts aren't really that effective of an counter, since they get easily sniped by fungals and BL fire. Also tbh I would be interested in learning ghost use. Currently I can't pull it off at all. even if terran gets ghosts, i still think zerg is way stronger. but how can you NOT get ghosts in that situation?????????? that's my point. not that ghosts would be op against that composition just think about it. Because ghosts are actually a big investment, and are also units that are very fragile. One mistake and it's a ton of minerals/gas down the drain that could've been more vikings and marines instead. Ghosts just haven't proven to be worth it when you can get equally good or better results by making more vikings and spreading them out. If your marines/vikings get caught by fungal, its less of an issue since they are pretty cheap and you have the tech for them anyway. Ghosts are just an alternative "counter" that sometimes pays off but usually doesn't. If you're gonna admit ghosts aren't the key to countering that unit comp, then you really shouldn't be rambling here about them either, at least not in that tone. 1824 posts. LOL. I don't even know how to respond. Ghosts are a big investment? Fragile? They can CLOAK and have almost twice as much emp as an infestor, are very small, move faster, and cast cast ALL of their spells while cloaked. They're also cheaper than infestors. I don't understand how this guy can post with a straight face. ---- Sorry, I could go on and on, and it sounds like I'm getting defensive in these threads, but I'm really not. I've said it a million times, I understand that being popular/whatever comes with a degree of haters, and I'm fine with that. I have no problem dealing with people who make rude/nasty remarks about me on the internet, because it's just the internet. What I'm worried about are high post count forum members making borderline-retarded statements concerning strategy. The whole idea behind earning "blue post" on teamliquid is a bit of a joke, it's like saying, "Hey, we understand the majority of the people who post about strategy are total idiots, so we put people who we know aren't morons in blue!" People just need to think about their statements a little more before they post in regards to strategy, I think. Especially people who post frequently. Having a high post count on a site like teamliquid should mean something.
Im so out of the loop, but why are you calling people by their post count?
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At least Steven admitted infestors were OP in the post interview lol
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On July 29 2011 09:33 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. Ah my bad then, sorry for jumping the gun there. But you can't deny that he didn't rode on the KA templars as much as your original post suggested. PLUS, in the GSL WC, he played without the KA upgrade and did reasonably well by taking out White-Ra, Dimaga, and a game off IMMVP and a really close game IMMVP almost lost though MVP still beat him 3-1.
Agreed. I posted this before but here it is again Click. If you don't want to read, no worries but basically the tl;dr is that he didn't really abuse KA Templar in his game vs Nestea and that's arguably his best game (he used Blink stalkers to defend muta harass every single time, not KA Amulet). My post mentions the times he used Warp In storm or Warp in anything. My post also acknowledges that Nestea underestimated San (which is why Nestea nearly lost 10 minutes within the game) but it still shows that San is good with his mechanics and good in a macro game.
He used archons more often than KA Storm in that game actually.
Also here's San's ladder last season (40th GM on Korean) Click. Not good but not bad either.
San also helped Nestea practice according to Nestea's interview. Doesn't really say much but it at least it shows that San is good enough to be a practice partner with Nestea (though how many games? Was he effective? Yes I acknowledge we do not know that either).
As for those who say "Well San is in Code B Now?" - While he did drop to Code B, the skill gap between Code B and S is still blurry (team leagues for example show case this).
Besides someone like Nestea (or anyone really consistent), a lot of Code S players aren't doing super good against Code A or Code B. So overall San isn't a bad player but I do acknowledge he isn't doing as good lately :\.
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On July 29 2011 10:26 Yew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:58 Mayor wrote:On July 29 2011 09:49 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:40 Loki57 wrote:On July 29 2011 09:36 Yew wrote:On July 29 2011 09:34 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 29 2011 09:27 Yew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 09:20 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 09:00 Yew wrote:
Do you guys remember SanZenith in GSL(March I think)? He was using Templars with KA every single game, and he got away with it. After the KA nerf, where is he now? Code B. He just rode the KA templars every single game and got to the ro4 in GSL. That's what I see when I watch destiny play. He uses a strategy which: 1. Players aren't used to 2. Is extremely hard to beat with standard play. So either terrans will have to find a way to counter it, or it might get nerfed. Blizzard has already said that they are taking a look at BL/Infestor, because it's such a hard composition to beat. idk why but people have been bashing San a bit and I saw this brilliant post that I saved and told myself I would share should I see more San abusive player stuff: Show nested quote +/B] On July 26 2011 09:24 Goldfish wrote:On July 25 2011 12:39 SafeAsCheese wrote:Hongun won't blink as well as MC On July 25 2011 12:32 Ezze wrote:On July 25 2011 12:24 gustavohmp wrote:[
HAD IT BEEN Nestea vs Byun and HongUn vs Losira, I would be 100% SURE the finals would be Nestea vs Losira
HongUn abusive style CAN and probably WILL take out Nestea. It wouldnt even flinch Losira but Nestea is shaky vs abusive Protoss, I say this because of his match against San is that GSL that I forgot what month happened. Its old, and its only one game, but its the only time I remember Nestea losing to Protoss, so thats that.
Losira has AWFUL ZvT and, well, I dont know how Byuns TvZ is, but if he is any good at late game management, Losira is bound to fall. To me, Losira greatest strenght is deflecting bullshit. Looking back to his games vs MMA in MLG, I fear Losira wont advance today.
I expect great and memorable games tonight. I believe all of them (well maybe not HungUn) deserve a spot in the finals and Ill be cheering for the best even though I think it is time to a ZvZ finals, with both players from the same team, no less. The San game you're referring to was one of the LEAST ABUSIVE protoss games I've ever seen. San basically was massing expansions and destroyed Nestea with unit control and positioning. So I have no clue what you're talking about son. NesTea went muta, but was not able to harass with them at all because every time he went into Sans base, a HT warped in and stormed. He WOULD have lost without amulet, it's not even questionable. That series made me rage even harder than IdrA vs Cruncher on old Shakuras Okay what's with all the San bashing lately (in the team league, now here too?). Yes San is not doing well now (slump?) but his games were decent (arguably though his Ro16, Ro8, and Ro4 games weren't too impressive in GSL march but that game vs Nestea was impressive). San vs Nestea. Here's a basically summary of the entire events of the game (I was going to rewatch that game sometime anyway >.>). + Show Spoiler +
A major thing to note is that he did a [b]timing attack with a lot of stalkers and sentries at around 10 minutes and prevented his third hatch from going. This probably determined the outcome of the game greatly.
I rewatch that game and San used Blink stalkers to defend mutalisks. He didn't even get amulet until 20-21 minute mark (game timer). Even once he got amulet, he used Blink stalkers to defend the harass at 23 minute mark. It wasn't until 25 minutes until amulet may have been taken advantaged of (though take note there were 4 templars out ever since the 20 minute mark which meant they probably had max energy already). Finally the muta harass at the 28 minute mark was repelled by Stalkers again.
He started DT harass at 21 minutes and continued the rest of the game (this helped a lot).
He used a lot of Archons (didn't rely much on warp in storms. Again he only used storm at 25 minutes but take note those were from old templars which were warped in 5 minutes prior).
He only "really" abused and taken advantage of Amulet at 30-31 minute mark (when the Mothership first appears) so far. Take note the Archon toilet was used to kill 6 Brood Lords but San had a lot of stalkers coming in so he probably could have easily taken out those BL even without archon toilet.
At 36 minutes, he uses warp in templars to..... feedback overseers >.>. Even without Amulet, templars have enough energy to warp in feedback.
At 37 minute mark (one minute later), he uses warp in amulet templar to storm a mineral line of about 7 drones (gets a couple).
39 minute repeats another amulet storm (gets around 4 drones). So here he abuses amulet again but not for much gain.
40-41 minute - He feedbacks overseers and lands just "four" storms (one storm missed, two were against ultralisks).
Vortex but no archon toilet (banelings were in it). However there was another vortex against the 9 or so corruptors which was archon toileted. However he still had a ton of archons and stalkers leftover so he probably would have dealt with that easily regardless.
42 minute 20 second mark - Nestea 90 supply while San at 140. Basically GG. 44 minutes and around 20 seconds - Nestea GGs. Honestly he probably been able to win the game even with the current patch. He used archons a lot which would have been better now with the +1 range. Of course Infestor would have been buffed with the new Fungal (but slowed, after Infestor patch move speed was reduced by 0.25). The only major factor is that I agree that Nestea probably underestimated him however San played a great game and was microing, macroing, harassing, basically everything well throughout the entire game. Point is he defeat Nestea fairly (even though Nestea underestimated him). No he didn't win "solely" because of Amulet or the Archon toilet. He didn't even abuse amulet or the archon toilet that much (again rewatch the game). Maybe you can say if Nestea knew there was no amulet, he would have been more aggressive (though Nestea was already aggressive and denied by Blink stalkers several times) or San would have played differently. There's too much variables to debate on that fact. Of course again I agree Nestea played too passive early on and underestimated San but the point is San did not really abuse any gameplay imbalances in that game to win. Game needs to be watched and one needs to take note of the time he uses warp in storms or so (I listed all occurrences which I've seen). Anyway I'm just tired of the San bashing which is why I'm made this post. San is not a super good player but at the same time he's not a bad player that relied on amulet (he still did good in WC and did decently against MVP, near winning the 4th set[you can rewatch since WC is free]). As for the question of "would a good player be in Code B"? Well currently, Code B players can easily defeat Code S players (see team league). San doing bad in a few matches in a row does not mean he's a bad player (lots of players hit slumps or have periods where they play several bad games in a row). He's shown he's capable of being a decent to good player. Finally I do agree Nestea is currently a better player than San but the discussion was whether San is a bad player and I'd say he's not a bad player and he did not get as far as he did solely because of amulet. Ok this is the real finally >.> - While San did not use amulet much in the Nestea game (again a basic summary and play by play of the game is listed above) I do know he used them extensively in other games like vs sCfOu. Though an important thing to note is if there was no amulet, San would have played the game differently and we do not know how well San would have played then (against sC). We know he's decent without it (see San vs IMMVP. In the one macro game, he did well. Though he lost 2 games due to failed attempts at all ins/cheese >.<).. So that's another thing I'd like to point out. I know San is a good player, I never said he was bad. But you can't deny that without the KA templars, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. KA was overpowered because high templars could be reinforced ANYWHERE ON THE MAP wit ha storm. This meant counter attacks, muta attacks, split forces were all 10x weaker because a protoss didn't ever need to defend their base. See 30 muta flying to your mineral line? Warp 2 templars, storm storm morph archon, bam. Infestors have map travel time, so do ghosts, that's why they get an energy upgrade. If you are seriously saying infestors are OP, jesus christ. They are the zergs single good unit late game. Broodlords are good too. And using them together is insanely hard to beat. So you're saying using an extremely expensive, slow T3 unit that takes at LEAST 15 minutes to tech to is good in conjunction with ANOTHER very expensive, slow unit? Ludicrous! Wtf does tech time have to do with anything? Destiny got to infestors in almost every game! And that's with like 40-50 drones on 3 base. He never said anything about infestor tech time, he just said using a late game unit that's expensive and takes a long time to get, which you have to survive long enough to get that is good with an expensive, slow spellcaster unit makes sense. Yeah, and...? He said "They are the zergs single good unit late game" and I said broodlords are good too. Is this wrong?
I never said that it was wrong, but I was merely saying that using infestors in your argument about broodlords being useful, is silly to say the least.
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