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On June 16 2011 16:34 Officedrone wrote:
According to IdrA:
ZvP - "Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss", and "Against Protoss, you're always 1 click away from losing"
ZvZ - It's a coinflip no matter what you do
ZvT - As long as Terran doesn't "cheese" I win. With cheese meaning "doesn't do any pressure for 15-20 min"
hehe pretty much this unfortunately
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On June 17 2011 05:27 Allwars wrote:
So, seeing the results of today, does it mean that IdrA is out of NASL?
He's gone until season 2
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On June 17 2011 05:37 Lyrok wrote:Will there be a restream? Missed it 
This was the restream. So you'll have to get a VOD pass to watch.
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so they didnt pause it....
Now when JTV is back the games ended...
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On June 17 2011 05:51 Frankon wrote:
so they didnt pause it....
Now when JTV is back the games ended...
Nah, they did pause it. When JTV got back, the stream was frozen at the point it was at when JTV died for about 10 minutes and then it resumed where it had left off. No part of the game was skipped.
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In the wake of IdrA getting curbstomped by Zenio and out of any sort of contention for NASL S1, I'd like to call your attention to an interesting thing that happened last night.
Zenio beat IdrA in Game 1 - and for those of you who are familiar with IdrA, this will come as no surprise - IdrA leaves without a GG. At the beginning of Game 2, Zenio calls IdrA out on it, and we have this exchange:
Zenio: Where's the GG?
IdrA: earn it
Well, Mr. Fields, I think he certainly did. And as some parting wisdom, it's not wise to rile your opponents when you're down the first game in a BO3, because it certainly seems like Zenio had incentive to destroy you.
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Is idra finally out of the NASL ?
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On June 17 2011 06:00 null wrote:
In the wake of IdrA getting curbstomped by Zenio and out of any sort of contention for NASL S1, I'd like to call your attention to an interesting thing that happened last night.
Zenio beat IdrA in Game 1 - and for those of you who are familiar with IdrA, this will come as no surprise - IdrA leaves without a GG. At the beginning of Game 2, Zenio calls IdrA out on it, and we have this exchange:
Zenio: Where's the GG?
IdrA: earn it
Well, Mr. Fields, I think he certainly did. And as some parting wisdom, it's not wise to rile your opponents when you're down the first game in a BO3, because it certainly seems like Zenio had incentive to destroy you.
god I love Zenio
I wish Boxer had called Idra out on it. Glad Idra is out.
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On June 17 2011 06:20 TI83 wrote:
Is idra finally out of the NASL ?
Yes.
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i had the feeling he was gonna get crushed by zenio but didn't want to believe it lol...
lol at the "earn it" - at least he's consistent
btw i think he coulda beated zenio if he had better scouting info
the normal transition from ling/bling is mutas anyways (i'm not sure what happened game 2). i feel it's not just "mind-games" but idra's lack of good practice partners... as there are "mind-games" in ZvT and ZvP and he does very well in those matchups
maybe roach is too gas intensive for a tech switch (maybe some safety spore crawlers)
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On June 17 2011 06:30 imkp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 06:00 null wrote:
In the wake of IdrA getting curbstomped by Zenio and out of any sort of contention for NASL S1, I'd like to call your attention to an interesting thing that happened last night.
Zenio beat IdrA in Game 1 - and for those of you who are familiar with IdrA, this will come as no surprise - IdrA leaves without a GG. At the beginning of Game 2, Zenio calls IdrA out on it, and we have this exchange:
Zenio: Where's the GG?
IdrA: earn it
Well, Mr. Fields, I think he certainly did. And as some parting wisdom, it's not wise to rile your opponents when you're down the first game in a BO3, because it certainly seems like Zenio had incentive to destroy you. god I love Zenio I wish Boxer had called Idra out on it. Glad Idra is out.
Yea I wasn't a fan of Zenio before but the NASL changed my mind about him.
Boxer is too awesome to give IdrA's bad manner any attention. No need to make IdrA cry more than he allready does.
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On June 17 2011 06:30 imkp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 06:00 null wrote:
In the wake of IdrA getting curbstomped by Zenio and out of any sort of contention for NASL S1, I'd like to call your attention to an interesting thing that happened last night.
Zenio beat IdrA in Game 1 - and for those of you who are familiar with IdrA, this will come as no surprise - IdrA leaves without a GG. At the beginning of Game 2, Zenio calls IdrA out on it, and we have this exchange:
Zenio: Where's the GG?
IdrA: earn it
Well, Mr. Fields, I think he certainly did. And as some parting wisdom, it's not wise to rile your opponents when you're down the first game in a BO3, because it certainly seems like Zenio had incentive to destroy you. god I love Zenio I wish Boxer had called Idra out on it. Glad Idra is out.
Boxer is too nice and well mannered to call Idra out, he probably felt too sad to type cos he made Idra mad by proxying him.
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I was actually surprised at how well dde played, though he really lost the third game in the strangest way possible. I'm not sure how he didn't kill that hatch and it was pure blind luck (though avoidable) that his racks didn't land in time.
Also, the Mana X Idra second game really shouldn't be recommended. It really felt like Mana has no clue what he was doing the first 10 minutes of the game. He held on thanks to Idea messing up positioning and not having infestors with his banedrops.
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There's an interview with Zenio on nasl.tv now. He says "I don't hate Idra, I just think he needs to change his attitude."
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Zenio plaid and simply outplaid him in g2.
He had a decent roaches/lings/banelings army which would have hold off any Idra push before transitionning to muta.
Notice also that Zenio didn't take a third before having his muta.
It wasn't some kind of 3-4 muta queen kill sneaky play, na it was a solid transitionning, over 13 muta (more were being produced while harassing) which would have inflicted heavy damage no matter what.
Also infestors only counter mutas given that they had enough time to regen their mana, and that the opponent doesn't micro them properly.
Once Zerg players will figure out that they can split their mutalisk group once they have over 12 (this could be helpful in the TvZ MU as well), the mutalisk play could very well be the way to go in the late game.
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On June 16 2011 19:30 Azarkon wrote:
Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion.
This is not a good analysis. This sounds like a low level Zerg player doing theory crafting after the fact.
Zenio didn't coin flip. His entire build in g2 was designed to conserve gas and stop the roach/ling timing attack. He never had a failed ling/bane aggression. He built the bane nest because it nullified mass speedling aggression and is pivotal in later countering the roach/ling timing. You didn't see him running in and losing 5-6 banes to roaches did you? He never wasted any on aggression. Instead, he got ahead in drones.
He didn't end up with 1k gas by accidental coinflip either. That doesn't happen in ZvZ. He did it because regardless of what Idra chose to do, whether it was continue to mass roaches for a timing or go for greed macro 3-base roach/infestor play, Zenio would have beaten him. If Idra had gone for hydra, Zenio can go infestor and win with roach/infestor just like he did the other game where Idra was way ahead and then ended up getting rofl stomped by mass fungals.
At no point after the first 5 minutes were Idra and Zenio even. Zenio had way more drones during the timing attack and then afterwards while Idra caught up in drones, Zenio got wayyy ahead in gas bank, which is what made the muta switch actually possible. It wasn't a coin flip. You can't coin flip a strat that depends on you having a shit ton more gas than you're opponent.
Nor did Zenio make a simcity. You're misusing the term. He made two spines with nothing to block in front of them, he positioned them slightly behind the hatch so they didn't protect the right side which was a blunder, and he amassed several rounds of speedlings to counter the roaches. Then the banes kept Idra's speedlings away while the roaches died to slings. It was NOT sim city. Spines alone wouldn't have made Idra back off. It was spines AND banes, which is why Zenio never had a failed ling/bane aggression. He built the nest specifically knowing it was the counter to the roach/ling timing attack.
This match was VERY much about ZvZ and what build orders beat what. Zenio showed the perfect counter to the roach-sling timing attack which is very popular right now. Idra's weakness as a player is he doesn't keep up with the metagame and he's predictable and focuses too much on eco, not enough on responding to what the other player is doing.
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On June 16 2011 19:30 Azarkon wrote:
Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion.
QFT--with posibly a couple of changes, considering g2 looked like a set up muta switch by zenio.
and if you are going to attack this, please look at flash and other BW bonjwas where they have games where they do some coin flip builds after scouting stuff, I am of course not talking about idras 6pool again Jinro in GSL, or his 6pool again MC in DHi, which are very few and far in between.
Watch zero vs flash, the first game is a scouted valc-rine rush expecting a muta switch from zero.
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On June 17 2011 06:00 null wrote:
In the wake of IdrA getting curbstomped by Zenio and out of any sort of contention for NASL S1, I'd like to call your attention to an interesting thing that happened last night.
Zenio beat IdrA in Game 1 - and for those of you who are familiar with IdrA, this will come as no surprise - IdrA leaves without a GG. At the beginning of Game 2, Zenio calls IdrA out on it, and we have this exchange:
Zenio: Where's the GG?
IdrA: earn it
Well, Mr. Fields, I think he certainly did. And as some parting wisdom, it's not wise to rile your opponents when you're down the first game in a BO3, because it certainly seems like Zenio had incentive to destroy you.
-.- Well you may be unaware there is a certain amount of bad blood between IdrA and Zenio since the Zenio ceremony in the GSL
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Zenio is 6-0 against idra in broadcaster games, GSL/NASL.
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EPT
