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[NASL] Playoffs Day 1 - Page 69

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
June 16 2011 20:02 GMT
#1361
Silly question but on 3 bases and with so many roaches, what if Idra goes for a base trade with his roaches ? Couldn't he hope to do a lot of damage/ destroy zenio while building queens and spore crawlers on the base the mutas are not attacking and then win by the skin of his teeth ? Not saying it's realistic (dunno much about zerg unit damage and cost) but isn't it worth trying ?
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
Asha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom38256 Posts
June 16 2011 20:02 GMT
#1362
Zenio 6-0 vs Idra =)

Happy to see him make it to the finals, poor guy never seems to get much real success or attention.
ciazo
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden7 Posts
June 16 2011 20:02 GMT
#1363
He had Infestors 10 seconds too late mate, He couldave hold it if the infestors were a little bit earlier with a decent fungal (Had a chance to survive it atleast). And with mutas being dealt with he had a just as big chance of winning that game! Mutas at that stage are something you really need to do dmg with.. (with that tech switch)
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
June 16 2011 20:03 GMT
#1364
On June 17 2011 04:56 Mailing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 04:55 nepeta wrote:
lmao, Zenio earned a gg here I think :p


How so if I may ask


Because he won. Every single one of your posts defends idras ass no matter how well or poorly he played. Why are you bringing up the same argument from yesterday?
The Notorious Winkles
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 16 2011 20:04 GMT
#1365
I think it was still a premature gg from IdrA, but I suppose he's the pro and not me.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 16 2011 20:05 GMT
#1366
On June 17 2011 05:02 Eurekastreet wrote:
Silly question but on 3 bases and with so many roaches, what if Idra goes for a base trade with his roaches ? Couldn't he hope to do a lot of damage/ destroy zenio while building queens and spore crawlers on the base the mutas are not attacking and then win by the skin of his teeth ? Not saying it's realistic (dunno much about zerg unit damage and cost) but isn't it worth trying ?



This is exactly what I do if I see surprise mutas. Run to the natural asap, kill army, kill drones at natural, run up the ramp, kill tech and lair, pray infestors/hydras and spores pop in time before I lose too much dmg while remaking the army. Its a coinflip.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Rammstorm
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1434 Posts
June 16 2011 20:06 GMT
#1367
On June 17 2011 04:56 Mailing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 04:55 nepeta wrote:
lmao, Zenio earned a gg here I think :p


How so if I may ask


By winning over Idra with good builds/Unit-control/decision-making and + Show Spoiler +
ATTITUDE
? All of this, in spite of playing with lag and at 4 am.

GG WP Zenio.

"MC" -> Master of Ceremonies xD
PeZuY
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
935 Posts
June 16 2011 20:06 GMT
#1368
Since both idrA and Zenio are both very high level players, both should know there could be some "non-standard" openings, especially Zenio when he has opened 9 pools against fellow Zerg players in the group stage already. I do not know if idrA did any kind of research of Zenios current games in NASL/overall, but I think it is why he lost it.

I agree that idrA got very, very unlucky in the game one and that is even bigger factor than the research he could've done in Zenio, but dunno how the game 1 end would be if idrA would've done his homework about Zenios ZvZ openings.

Well game two, I personally just feel that idrA could've countered it by getting 1 or 2 ovies when his lair got up and should've really scouted Zenios base.

Best of luck to Zenio against Sen tho, he is gonna need it! :D
Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
June 16 2011 20:07 GMT
#1369
On June 17 2011 05:04 Probe1 wrote:
I think it was still a premature gg from IdrA, but I suppose he's the pro and not me.

Can I attempt a "that's what she said" ?
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 16 2011 20:10 GMT
#1370
Permission ggranted.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
NASL.tv
Profile Joined April 2011
699 Posts
June 16 2011 20:10 GMT
#1371
Thank you for your patience today. We really appreciate it.

For EU audiences, our EU-friendly site (nasl.tv/eu) allows you to tune in to the stream with no spoilers. This is something to bookmark for the next stream if you often find yourself tuning in, in the rebroadcast.

Also, you can access the VOD page directly by using nasl.tv/Videos. This page also offers some cool options such as telling you which VOD's we recommend you to watch, and you can search for specific match ups, players, and race match ups (ZvZ, for example).

Hope everyone has a great day.
Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
June 16 2011 20:11 GMT
#1372
On June 17 2011 05:10 Probe1 wrote:
Permission ggranted.


Thanks. Damn I'm gonna miss Steve Carrell next season.
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 16 2011 20:12 GMT
#1373
Thanks for helping get that fixed up NASL guy.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
June 16 2011 20:15 GMT
#1374
Any comment from NASL on the 480p stream no longer being free? Is it intentional?
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-16 20:21:24
June 16 2011 20:20 GMT
#1375
lol so many posts discussing only idra? Other people played today... DDE vs Zenio was surprisingly close, great games.
Dodge arrows
SixPackAbs
Profile Joined September 2010
United States160 Posts
June 16 2011 20:21 GMT
#1376
@sitromit

they figured out most people watch at that quality even with HD due to shitty internet, and want to make more money :p
Allwars
Profile Joined May 2011
164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-16 20:32:20
June 16 2011 20:27 GMT
#1377
So, seeing the results of today, does it mean that IdrA is out of NASL?
diverzee
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden992 Posts
June 16 2011 20:35 GMT
#1378
I really think Diggity is a great caster, I sure wouldn't complain if he's featured more often on NASL or other interesting events. Good voice and good undertanding of the game.
Parting
freeloader625
Profile Joined May 2010
United States180 Posts
June 16 2011 20:37 GMT
#1379
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 16 2011 19:30 Azarkon wrote:
Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.

Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.

First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.

Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.

There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.

It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.

Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."

Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.

Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.

That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.

I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion.


Dude great analysis. I felt the same with way while watching Idra play (since the beginning of sc2) but could never put it in words. I would like to point out that however, he is changing ever so slightly and slowly. He has begun to play much more aggressively vs protoss (probably because he thinks he can't win late game) on stream and in tourney play.
Lyrok
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany85 Posts
June 16 2011 20:37 GMT
#1380
Will there be a restream? Missed it
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