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Enough with the racism discussions, this is a LR Thread. Cut it out. -- updated 7:55 KST
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
Idra crushed himself more than anyone else could have.
That's the beginning of the end for him and cheesing MC repeatedly didn't help.
On June 06 2011 12:43 Nyor wrote: Let's compare the StarCraft 2 scene with the Marathon running scene. Marathon running scene? Why am I bringing this up here? Let's have a look at a typical sight you will see at most Marathon races around the world. Obviously, this is the front pack:
Just like in StarCraft 2, the best Marathon runners come from one geographical region. In this case, this would be Western Africa, Kenya and Ethiopia in particular. Why is this the case? Kenyans and Ethiopians train extremely hard. Marathon running is one way for them to get out of poverty. If they are part of the international elite, they can live from the price money they get at the Marathon races, and support their families as well. Consequently, the elite runners from Kenya and Ethiopia are extremely motivated, and thus work very hard to achieve success. The environment they live also helps them to improve and do better.
Now, let's look at the Europe, or Northern America... Is Marathon running a viable career choice there? No.... The price money one may earn at races in most cases not enough to cover living expenses. The few elite Western Marathon runners highly depend on sponsorship deals in order to keep training; since becoming an elite Marathon runner requires a lot of effort. For all other marathon runners, it's a hobby, not a professions.
While Marathon running and StarCraft 2 are completely different, one may notice a few similarities here and there. The dominating nation in the case of StarCraft 2 is Korea, becoming a pro-gamer is socially accepted in Korea; being a pro-gamer might also be financially rewarding from their point of view. In the "West" however, e-sports isn't really a viable career choice, it is not socially accepted, and financial-wise very risky. It's a hobby, but nothing more. Let's face it, e-sports, will probably never (never say never) achieve the same level of influence that e-sports such have in Korea.
Can/Should you blame the Ethiopians/Kenyans for doing well at Marathons? Absolutely not. Likewise, can/should you blame the the Koreans for playing well in SC2? Absolutely not, either. As long as you see tournaments with reasonably high price moneys, pro-gamers in Korea will continue to exist, and coonsequently do well in tournaments in the West.
Some people say "OMG, but Koreans winning all the time will hurt e-sports growth in the West". I don't think so. First of all, Koreans pro-gamers aren't unbeatable. Secondly, people who get discouraged by these results aren't really into e-sports anyways. Thirdly, Koreans pro's draw in bigger audiences to the tournaments. The success of the Koreans should be a motivation to play better/train harder, not a discouragement. Bigger Audiences -> More Sponsorship Money -> Higher Price Moneys -> More Competition. I think I can safely say that one reason that the MLG drew in such a big audience (both at Columbus and on the internet streams) is because of MC, Moon, MMA, July or Losira. People were excited to see those matches, and were curious to see whether "foreigners" could beat them. Again, bigger audiences were a result of their presence. Fourthly... eSports is not only about the select few winning the big tournaments; it's also about the majority, the "normal skilled" players. This big chunk of players will not simply go awayjust because a few Koreans did well at a big tournament. Have people in the West completely stopped running marathons just because a few Kenians won some big marathons?
great point... starcraft 2 needs an english gomtv to jumpstart e-sports
On the one hand I want to see the best sc2 pro gamers duke it out and bask in the high level play but on the other hand, I am more emotionally invested in non-Koreans then Koreans and thus want them to succeed. The reasons are:
1) I can understand and relate to them better (English language) 2) I watch their streams and I get to hear them interact with other pro gamers and us the fans (also via podcasts such as sotg and onemoregame shows) 3) I follow the drama in the scene better then the drama in the GSL (language barrier once again).
On June 06 2011 12:43 Nyor wrote: Let's compare the StarCraft 2 scene with the Marathon running scene. Marathon running scene? Why am I bringing this up here? Let's have a look at a typical sight you will see at most Marathon races around the world. Obviously, this is the front pack:
Just like in StarCraft 2, the best Marathon runners come from one geographical region. In this case, this would be Western Africa, Kenya and Ethiopia in particular. Why is this the case? Kenyans and Ethiopians train extremely hard. Marathon running is one way for them to get out of poverty. If they are part of the international elite, they can live from the price money they get at the Marathon races, and support their families as well. Consequently, the elite runners from Kenya and Ethiopia are extremely motivated, and thus work very hard to achieve success. The environment they live also helps them to improve and do better.
Now, let's look at the Europe, or Northern America... Is Marathon running a viable career choice there? No.... The price money one may earn at races in most cases not enough to cover living expenses. The few elite Western Marathon runners highly depend on sponsorship deals in order to keep training; since becoming an elite Marathon runner requires a lot of effort. For all other marathon runners, it's a hobby, not a professions.
While Marathon running and StarCraft 2 are completely different, one may notice a few similarities here and there. The dominating nation in the case of StarCraft 2 is Korea, becoming a pro-gamer is socially accepted in Korea; being a pro-gamer might also be financially rewarding from their point of view. In the "West" however, e-sports isn't really a viable career choice, it is not socially accepted, and financial-wise very risky. It's a hobby, but nothing more. Let's face it, e-sports, will probably never (never say never) achieve the same level of influence that e-sports such have in Korea.
Can/Should you blame the Ethiopians/Kenyans for doing well at Marathons? Absolutely not. Likewise, can/should you blame the the Koreans for playing well in SC2? Absolutely not, either. As long as you see tournaments with reasonably high price moneys, pro-gamers in Korea will continue to exist, and coonsequently do well in tournaments in the West.
Some people say "OMG, but Koreans winning all the time will hurt e-sports growth in the West". I don't think so. First of all, Koreans pro-gamers aren't unbeatable. Secondly, people who get discouraged by these results aren't really into e-sports anyways. Thirdly, Koreans pro's draw in bigger audiences to the tournaments. The success of the Koreans should be a motivation to play better/train harder, not a discouragement. Bigger Audiences -> More Sponsorship Money -> Higher Price Moneys -> More Competition. I think I can safely say that one reason that the MLG drew in such a big audience (both at Columbus and on the internet streams) is because of MC, Moon, MMA, July or Losira. People were excited to see those matches, and were curious to see whether "foreigners" could beat them. Again, bigger audiences were a result of their presence. Fourthly... eSports is not only about the select few winning the big tournaments; it's also about the majority, the "normal skilled" players. This big chunk of players will not simply go awayjust because a few Koreans did well at a big tournament. Have people in the West completely stopped running marathons just because a few Kenians won some big marathons?
great point... starcraft 2 needs an english gomtv to jumpstart e-sports
Yes the koreans are better, but the foreigners are on their heels. Personally, I think the results of Columbus is going to decrease the gap, because foreigners are going to wake up and realise they are behind.
On June 06 2011 12:44 bigbeau wrote: Am I the only one who finds nationalism retarded and borderline racist?
There is a big difference between nationalism and racism. In the Olympics people are almost always nationalistic but teams are often made up of people from all races. In a race a white American would be rooting for a black American over a white Norwegian, for instance.
Whether or not this is retarded however... that is up for debate.
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
We all looked exactly like Day[9] did. There were a sea of Sean Plott faces, until someone yelled "What the fuck, IdrA?" And then we all kinda grumbled, someone mentioned HuK's void rays, and then MMA beat IdrA 5 minutes later So sad x.x
On June 06 2011 12:43 Nyor wrote: Let's compare the StarCraft 2 scene with the Marathon running scene. Marathon running scene? Why am I bringing this up here? Let's have a look at a typical sight you will see at most Marathon races around the world. Obviously, this is the front pack:
Just like in StarCraft 2, the best Marathon runners come from one geographical region. In this case, this would be Western Africa, Kenya and Ethiopia in particular. Why is this the case? Kenyans and Ethiopians train extremely hard. Marathon running is one way for them to get out of poverty. If they are part of the international elite, they can live from the price money they get at the Marathon races, and support their families as well. Consequently, the elite runners from Kenya and Ethiopia are extremely motivated, and thus work very hard to achieve success. The environment they live also helps them to improve and do better.
Now, let's look at the Europe, or Northern America... Is Marathon running a viable career choice there? No.... The price money one may earn at races in most cases not enough to cover living expenses. The few elite Western Marathon runners highly depend on sponsorship deals in order to keep training; since becoming an elite Marathon runner requires a lot of effort. For all other marathon runners, it's a hobby, not a professions.
While Marathon running and StarCraft 2 are completely different, one may notice a few similarities here and there. The dominating nation in the case of StarCraft 2 is Korea, becoming a pro-gamer is socially accepted in Korea; being a pro-gamer might also be financially rewarding from their point of view. In the "West" however, e-sports isn't really a viable career choice, it is not socially accepted, and financial-wise very risky. It's a hobby, but nothing more. Let's face it, e-sports, will probably never (never say never) achieve the same level of influence that e-sports such have in Korea.
Can/Should you blame the Ethiopians/Kenyans for doing well at Marathons? Absolutely not. Likewise, can/should you blame the the Koreans for playing well in SC2? Absolutely not, either. As long as you see tournaments with reasonably high price moneys, pro-gamers in Korea will continue to exist, and coonsequently do well in tournaments in the West.
Some people say "OMG, but Koreans winning all the time will hurt e-sports growth in the West". I don't think so. First of all, Koreans pro-gamers aren't unbeatable. Secondly, people who get discouraged by these results aren't really into e-sports anyways. Thirdly, Koreans pro's draw in bigger audiences to the tournaments. The success of the Koreans should be a motivation to play better/train harder, not a discouragement. Bigger Audiences -> More Sponsorship Money -> Higher Price Moneys -> More Competition. I think I can safely say that one reason that the MLG drew in such a big audience (both at Columbus and on the internet streams) is because of MC, Moon, MMA, July or Losira. People were excited to see those matches, and were curious to see whether "foreigners" could beat them. Again, bigger audiences were a result of their presence. Fourthly... eSports is not only about the select few winning the big tournaments; it's also about the majority, the "normal skilled" players. This big chunk of players will not simply go awayjust because a few Koreans did well at a big tournament. Have people in the West completely stopped running marathons just because a few Kenians won some big marathons?
great point... starcraft 2 needs an english gomtv to jumpstart e-sports
No, we need hard work ethic.
sitting yourself in front of a cimputer for 10 hours isn't going to solve it really. You need more people coming in and making it competitive and forcing bad players out so there's more sense of urgency. Saying "practice more" is simply a brute force method that doesn't work after a certain point. You need to actually practice the right way and Korea has developed great ways to practice without feeling like you're chained to your computer in SC 2.
On June 06 2011 12:52 thepeonwhocould wrote: Yeh I think people are jumping the gun here.
Yes the koreans are better, but the foreigners are on their heels. Personally, I think the results of Columbus is going to decrease the gap, because foreigners are going to wake up and realise they are behind.
I agree - foreigners are behind, but only slightly right now. You can see this by them losing 1-2 in most of the series with either some sort of a mismicro or misjudgement in their play. It's now up to them to practice more and close the gap imho.
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
On June 06 2011 12:43 Nyor wrote: Just like in StarCraft 2, the best Marathon runners come from one geographical region. In this case, this would be Western Africa, Kenya and Ethiopia in particular. Why is this the case? Kenyans and Ethiopians train extremely hard.
Good analogy. That's eastern Africa though. Americans are bad enough with geography without additional confusion .
On June 06 2011 11:04 Mailing wrote: Having koreas made more viewers. People wanted to see the foreigners win.
That's why so many people are butthurt about idra losing, even though he got 4th place. They wanted idra to beat the koreans but he gave up
Yea dude he must've given not. It's not like he was outclassed and outplayed or anything.
given not?
Idra wasn't outclassed in any way. In short he played like shit because of what he did to himself. His mental state was nowhere close to where it was for the first day in which he cleaned out his group.
We all looked exactly like Day[9] did. There were a sea of Sean Plott faces, until someone yelled "What the fuck, IdrA?" And then we all kinda grumbled, someone mentioned HuK's void rays, and then MMA beat IdrA 5 minutes later So sad x.x
The only thing more hilarious might be MMA's double-take when IdrA GG'd. I mean, it was a really sad moment, but ... goddammit, IdrA, you give us some wonderfully amusing games to chew on.
![[image loading]](http://www.walrusmagazine.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/sportstrotterkenyamarathon.jpg)
So sad x.x 
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600
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EPT
