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[6/12/2011 4:57:06 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: lucas
[6/12/2011 4:57:07 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: u there?
[6/12/2011 4:57:18 PM] Lucas: Hey
[6/12/2011 4:57:45 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: so we just merged with complexity
[6/12/2011 4:58:00 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: as far as the EGMC goes, should we just continue to use ROOT players
[6/12/2011 4:58:04 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: ?
[6/12/2011 4:58:45 PM] Lucas: I have to speak with one of the other EGMCSL admins to discuss what they want to do
[6/12/2011 4:58:47 PM] Lucas: about the merger
[6/12/2011 4:59:24 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: alright, we can finish the season with ROOT players, we can even use kiwi and slush if you want, we're all still great friends
[6/12/2011 4:59:49 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: but we are now coL so if you'd prefer us not use kiwi and slush that's fine too, let us know if we can use cruncher stalife though and whatnot
[6/12/2011 5:09:05 PM] Lucas: ok, I will discuss it with other MCSL admins hopefully tonight
[6/12/2011 5:09:12 PM] Lucas: are you still playing Millenium tomorrow?
[6/12/2011 5:34:03 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: yeah
[6/12/2011 5:34:10 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: if u can gimme an answer by tonight
[6/12/2011 5:34:14 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: on who we can use
[6/12/2011 5:34:15 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: it'd be best
[6/12/2011 5:34:33 PM] Lucas: yeah
[6/12/2011 8:49:10 PM] Lucas: ok, we're going to allow you to use the additional complexity players and change their name on the MCSL website, etc.
[6/12/2011 9:20:32 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: ok cool
[6/12/2011 9:21:18 PM] Lucas: but you can't use KiWi/Slush
[6/12/2011 9:21:22 PM] Lucas: since they aren;t part of coL
[6/12/2011 10:17:14 PM] Paulo Vizcarra: oki
this should put an end to all stupidness hopefully, Lucas = EGColbi, so admins had a huge say etc etc on what happened post-merger obviously. tbh, i dont see how xeris playing the 2v2 even makes a difference, drewbie and I are undefeated anyways, and lets pretend Minigun played Fenix in the Ace match, last showmatch I know of Minigun 4-0'd him. if Fnatic wanted to throw they woulda just forfeited or lost during the 1v1s, its really not hard, stop being retardos  (not answering anymore on this thread, its dumb)
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On June 23 2011 13:17 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 12:58 Xeris wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well: we had NightEnD, TT1, and Sen at Dreamhack (this was played on Thursday, which is the day they all left). KawaiiRice had to leave right after his match because he had WCG qualifiers. JF had to leave right after, and Fenix logged off after the 2v2.
So I was literally the only player left. Also -- since we knew we were 100% guaranteed for the playoffs, and we were already +2 points for the match, why not! If you can't get real players to play your matches, you have failed as a manager. Like that situation would ever happen if Fnatic needed a win to qualify. So, yes, you just "actually" threw a match. "Why not"? Because its unprofessional. Because you must show respect for other e-sports organizations, their fans, your fans and your sponsors. Because its not OK to throw games, screw over a bunch of people and laugh about it. If coL wants to advance, make them sweat for it, like you would in any other round. That's what respect means.
I don't think that you understand team management strategy. In reality Xeris made a decision which is common in many major sports and has nothing to do with respect or lack thereof. Fnatic.MSI qualified for their playoff spot and then essentially did not play their "starters." This is common in real sports, especially the NFL and NBA. The reasons for doing so are different--Fnatic.MSI seemed to want to focus on other things that week, and they aren't breaking any rules by not playing their best players. In fact, the team's management's obligation is to the best interest of its players, not its players' competitors.
Yes, sometimes it so happens that a game is "thrown" and an inferior team will win mainly because the better team played its bench. Sometimes, late in the season, this has playoff implications. But the reality is that any team which didn't make the playoffs failed because they didn't win enough games. You can't blame Fnatic.MSI for that.
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On June 24 2011 05:52 coL.drewbie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 05:14 Ganjamaster wrote:On June 24 2011 05:06 Mordiford wrote:On June 24 2011 04:58 Ganjamaster wrote:On June 24 2011 04:43 EchelonTee wrote:On June 24 2011 04:28 Ganjamaster wrote:On June 24 2011 04:16 coL.edward wrote:On June 24 2011 04:12 Ganjamaster wrote:
The EGMC staff should allow the possibility for a deciding match to be played between Sixjax and Complexity given that there were no rules established prior for team acquisitions/roster changes. Complexity should be given the option to decline this match, a decision which would test their ethical fiber as a team. If they are the "better team", what do they have to lose? I don't know what team you play for, but why would any team choose to play that hypothetical match? I'm glad you don't run a league. I do not play for any team, but I have been watching this cup closely (they play at night, thats when I watch). Because they have integrity, self-respect and more importantly, respect for the fans that deserve to see a fair and competitive tournament. Complexity was not in the tournament to begin with, the ruling allowing it to play in Root´s place is controversial at best (no ruleset established prior to tournament initiation). If you believe your team is better than Sixjax, what do you have to lose since you will surely win? And in that case no one will be able to put in question the legitimacy of your playoff spot which is indeed questioned right now. dude.. if by the rules a team has advanced over another team, they have no obligation and nothing to prove by having to play a tiebreaker. For example, in tournaments higher level players often receive byes, get put into higher seeds, etc. If they are the higher level player shouldn't they "prove themselves" by playing through all the scrubs, a la MLG open bracket? of course not there's no reason to have to play more games when one has already earned a spot. all in all Complexity has advanced according to the rules of EGMC, and though it is an awkward scenario they do not have any reason to doubt that they earned their spot. no one is claiming sixjax or col are better than one another; this is just one tournament. My point is that CoL earned nothing since CoL was not even in the tournament to begin with as they came in to substitute ROOT. But ROOT won many of their games with players who were never party of CoL (Kiwikaki, Slush). This happened NOT BECAUSE OF THE RULES, but because the EGMC admins decided it was the proper course of action (they are entirely within their right to take any decision they see fit). This decision ended up being very negative fo Sixjax. Given they already made a decision and would be wrong to go back on it, they should give CoL and Sixjax the option of playing a tiebreaker if they both agree, since it would be fair to Sixjax who got effectively shafted by the admin decision of transferring ROOTs wins to CoL in the conditions stated prior. It is just because of this particular situation that I think a tiebreaker is in order. In no way do I disagree with the seeding system of any other tournament. I just think that the fates of teams should be decided in the game and not by an arbitrary decision by admins when there is no ruling established for these kinds of scenarios. Alright, let's say they play the rematch and Sixjax wins by somehow beating coL's 2v2 team, then what? That's an unfair rematch advantage, the 2v2 team is the same, why do they get that advantage that no other team gets? Would you just want the single matches replayed? Why give Sixjax the advantage, they're not the only team that lost to ROOT. What about games where someone other than Kiwikaki won, but Kiwikaki lost, should Complexity get those points back and get a chance those points back to see if they can come up ahead? No matter what you do, someone is going to get screwed... This way, it's just circumstance rather than a direct screw-over, Sixjax didn't qualify based on their performance in this case, changing the switch for Complexity at this point would be a royal dick move, this stipulation should have been made when they were offered the replacement spot, not when they're qualified for the playoffs. No, because the other teams are not tied with Complexity. It is this tie, in my opinion, that makes sixjax eligible for a tiebraker. If the other teams were tied with CoL, then by all means they should also have a tiebraker. It is most likely that the admins did not foresee the possibility of a playoff spot tie including CoL when they took that decision, now is the time for them to make it right by at least offering the possibility of a tiebreaker to be played. It does not have to be team on team, it could just be a Bo7 ACE match or whatever format they prefer to make it feasible. its not a tie man, coL has 17 pts and sixjax has 16 ( this has been said about 5 times in the last couple pages, learn to read thx )
Sixjax played Sen, Fenix and TT1 when they played fnatic.
coL played an off-race Fenix and Xeris twice!
Under the rules you are right, coL deserves the spot since the tourny directors are taking a stance where the players don't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is that coL acquired the Root name so this is the proper decision.
However don't anybody dare say it is a fair decision since if sixjax had to play xeris twice instead of sen they wouldn't have lost, period.
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its not a tie man, coL has 17 pts and sixjax has 16 ( this has been said about 5 times in the last couple pages, learn to read thx )
It would be helpful if the official standings page reflected that. Not updating the page yet just adds to the frustration and confusion.
http://mcs.myeg.net/standings.html still shows compLexity at 3-3 with 13 points.
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On June 24 2011 06:30 MechKing wrote:
Should complexity really be given wins from a player that's not even on their team?
According to this logic shouldn't all of the loses of kiwi and slush not count then?
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On June 24 2011 06:27 Vul wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2011 13:17 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 12:58 Xeris wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well: we had NightEnD, TT1, and Sen at Dreamhack (this was played on Thursday, which is the day they all left). KawaiiRice had to leave right after his match because he had WCG qualifiers. JF had to leave right after, and Fenix logged off after the 2v2.
So I was literally the only player left. Also -- since we knew we were 100% guaranteed for the playoffs, and we were already +2 points for the match, why not! If you can't get real players to play your matches, you have failed as a manager. Like that situation would ever happen if Fnatic needed a win to qualify. So, yes, you just "actually" threw a match. "Why not"? Because its unprofessional. Because you must show respect for other e-sports organizations, their fans, your fans and your sponsors. Because its not OK to throw games, screw over a bunch of people and laugh about it. If coL wants to advance, make them sweat for it, like you would in any other round. That's what respect means. I don't think that you understand team management strategy. In reality Xeris made a decision which is common in many major sports and has nothing to do with respect or lack thereof. Fnatic.MSI qualified for their playoff spot and then essentially did not play their "starters." This is common in real sports, especially the NFL and NBA. The reasons for doing so are different--Fnatic.MSI seemed to want to focus on other things that week, and they aren't breaking any rules by not playing their best players. In fact, the team's management's obligation is to the best interest of its players, not its players' competitors. Yes, sometimes it so happens that a game is "thrown" and an inferior team will win mainly because the better team played its bench. Sometimes, late in the season, this has playoff implications. But the reality is that any team which didn't make the playoffs failed because they didn't win enough games. You can't blame Fnatic.MSI for that.
I understand what you are trying to say, but there are key differences in the analogy.
First, Fnatic didn't run an alternate, they ran someone who is not even a professional player. It was the equivalent of Mavs starting Mark Cuban in their last season game. : P
Randomly asking an online GM player to join the squad for one night would have been a better decision, if you think about it.
Second, in physical sports, saving players is understandable in face of injury risk, traveling, fatigue and all, but here it came down to asking one of their 3 available players at that night (iefnaij, kawaii and Fenix) to hang an extra 20-30min and play a match, or ask coL if they could start 30min earlier if it came to it.
When there is strategical benefit to not play, I can agree with the decision to save the players energy and focus. But when the downsides and sacrifices you have to make in order to play your match are so small, it should be the standard conduct to go and play, showing respect to other teams, the league and the fans.
Otherwise, you leave the door open for some more shitty matches in the future and less deserving teams moving forward in tournaments. What good is that for anyone?
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It's hard to argue that coL is a less deserving team than Sixjax ... they're both really good teams #_#
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i dont know why any of you are trying to argue who deserves the spot more... the only thing that matters is what the rules say... whoever makes the playoffs from what the rules say, should make the playoffs
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On June 24 2011 10:22 Xeris wrote:
It's hard to argue that coL is a less deserving team than Sixjax ... they're both really good teams #_#
It's actually incredibly easy. Read the last 20 pages.
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On June 24 2011 09:03 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 06:27 Vul wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2011 13:17 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 12:58 Xeris wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well: we had NightEnD, TT1, and Sen at Dreamhack (this was played on Thursday, which is the day they all left). KawaiiRice had to leave right after his match because he had WCG qualifiers. JF had to leave right after, and Fenix logged off after the 2v2.
So I was literally the only player left. Also -- since we knew we were 100% guaranteed for the playoffs, and we were already +2 points for the match, why not! If you can't get real players to play your matches, you have failed as a manager. Like that situation would ever happen if Fnatic needed a win to qualify. So, yes, you just "actually" threw a match. "Why not"? Because its unprofessional. Because you must show respect for other e-sports organizations, their fans, your fans and your sponsors. Because its not OK to throw games, screw over a bunch of people and laugh about it. If coL wants to advance, make them sweat for it, like you would in any other round. That's what respect means. I don't think that you understand team management strategy. In reality Xeris made a decision which is common in many major sports and has nothing to do with respect or lack thereof. Fnatic.MSI qualified for their playoff spot and then essentially did not play their "starters." This is common in real sports, especially the NFL and NBA. The reasons for doing so are different--Fnatic.MSI seemed to want to focus on other things that week, and they aren't breaking any rules by not playing their best players. In fact, the team's management's obligation is to the best interest of its players, not its players' competitors. Yes, sometimes it so happens that a game is "thrown" and an inferior team will win mainly because the better team played its bench. Sometimes, late in the season, this has playoff implications. But the reality is that any team which didn't make the playoffs failed because they didn't win enough games. You can't blame Fnatic.MSI for that. I understand what you are trying to say, but there are key differences in the analogy. First, Fnatic didn't run an alternate, they ran someone who is not even a professional player. It was the equivalent of Mavs starting Mark Cuban in their last season game. : P Randomly asking an online GM player to join the squad for one night would have been a better decision, if you think about it. Second, in physical sports, saving players is understandable in face of injury risk, traveling, fatigue and all, but here it came down to asking one of their 3 available players at that night (iefnaij, kawaii and Fenix) to hang an extra 20-30min and play a match, or ask coL if they could start 30min earlier if it came to it. When there is strategical benefit to not play, I can agree with the decision to save the players energy and focus. But when the downsides and sacrifices you have to make in order to play your match are so small, it should be the standard conduct to go and play, showing respect to other teams, the league and the fans. Otherwise, you leave the door open for some more shitty matches in the future and less deserving teams moving forward in tournaments. What good is that for anyone?
I still think that it's fundamentally a legitimate option to not have your best players play if it can no longer benefit you. It may have been because they just wanted to relax, practice for something else, hide strategies, or maybe it was too inconvenient at the time and rather than try to reschedule they had Xeris play (again, sounds like they had a lot going on).
Again I think this has nothing to do with disrespect, just perspective. You do what's best for your team, within the rules, because your goal is to win. If what's best for your team is to not play your best players, that's what you do.
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On June 24 2011 09:03 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 06:27 Vul wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2011 13:17 lucasesper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 12:58 Xeris wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well: we had NightEnD, TT1, and Sen at Dreamhack (this was played on Thursday, which is the day they all left). KawaiiRice had to leave right after his match because he had WCG qualifiers. JF had to leave right after, and Fenix logged off after the 2v2.
So I was literally the only player left. Also -- since we knew we were 100% guaranteed for the playoffs, and we were already +2 points for the match, why not! If you can't get real players to play your matches, you have failed as a manager. Like that situation would ever happen if Fnatic needed a win to qualify. So, yes, you just "actually" threw a match. "Why not"? Because its unprofessional. Because you must show respect for other e-sports organizations, their fans, your fans and your sponsors. Because its not OK to throw games, screw over a bunch of people and laugh about it. If coL wants to advance, make them sweat for it, like you would in any other round. That's what respect means. I don't think that you understand team management strategy. In reality Xeris made a decision which is common in many major sports and has nothing to do with respect or lack thereof. Fnatic.MSI qualified for their playoff spot and then essentially did not play their "starters." This is common in real sports, especially the NFL and NBA. The reasons for doing so are different--Fnatic.MSI seemed to want to focus on other things that week, and they aren't breaking any rules by not playing their best players. In fact, the team's management's obligation is to the best interest of its players, not its players' competitors. Yes, sometimes it so happens that a game is "thrown" and an inferior team will win mainly because the better team played its bench. Sometimes, late in the season, this has playoff implications. But the reality is that any team which didn't make the playoffs failed because they didn't win enough games. You can't blame Fnatic.MSI for that. I understand what you are trying to say, but there are key differences in the analogy. First, Fnatic didn't run an alternate, they ran someone who is not even a professional player. It was the equivalent of Mavs starting Mark Cuban in their last season game. : P Randomly asking an online GM player to join the squad for one night would have been a better decision, if you think about it. Second, in physical sports, saving players is understandable in face of injury risk, traveling, fatigue and all, but here it came down to asking one of their 3 available players at that night (iefnaij, kawaii and Fenix) to hang an extra 20-30min and play a match, or ask coL if they could start 30min earlier if it came to it. When there is strategical benefit to not play, I can agree with the decision to save the players energy and focus. But when the downsides and sacrifices you have to make in order to play your match are so small, it should be the standard conduct to go and play, showing respect to other teams, the league and the fans. Otherwise, you leave the door open for some more shitty matches in the future and less deserving teams moving forward in tournaments. What good is that for anyone?
xeris has already posted like 10 times in this thread now that he was the only one available.... come on.
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There's only one solution to this matter Xeris, of not having enough players to game time (even ones that don't matter)... and that's FnaticMSI.TriMaster?
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Why are you sponsoring players with such little care for the game that they will disconnect with no warning, that don't care about showing up or barely play enough to be competitive? All of this speaks to you as a manager and Fnatic as an entity. Have gamers gotten such big heads after some sponsorship they are all divas? Get your team under control. If they want to keep getting free laptops, paid travel and salary (if they do) they have to do their fucking job. Sorry but I really don't get it. Woe is me I suppose where I have to work for the people who pay me.
still not getting the excuse train from fnatic about why they couldn't field a competant roster or have had walkover issues in the past. the only conclusion is they don't think the egmc is a top priority and thats perfectly ok, but just say it. The lame excuses are just that, lame.
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On June 24 2011 11:29 crms wrote:Show nested quote +
Why are you sponsoring players with such little care for the game that they will disconnect with no warning, that don't care about showing up or barely play enough to be competitive? All of this speaks to you as a manager and Fnatic as an entity. Have gamers gotten such big heads after some sponsorship they are all divas? Get your team under control. If they want to keep getting free laptops, paid travel and salary (if they do) they have to do their fucking job. Sorry but I really don't get it. Woe is me I suppose where I have to work for the people who pay me.
still not getting the excuse train from fnatic about why they couldn't field a competant roster or have had walkover issues in the past. the only conclusion is they don't think the egmc is a top priority and thats perfectly ok, but just say it. The lame excuses are just that, lame.
Sure it's a top priority, it's a $10,000 clan league. We won GCPL, we want to win this one too. People who think we don't take this league seriously must be joking, we didn't get to the playoffs by not taking it seriously... Fnatic takes it very seriously, and I'm hoping we'll be able to win it all
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in all reality ppl need to leave xeris alone he hasnt done anything wrong he did what any manager would do.
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On June 24 2011 06:20 coL.CatZ wrote:
i dont see how xeris playing the 2v2 even makes a difference, drewbie and I are undefeated anyways, and lets pretend Minigun played Fenix in the Ace match, last showmatch I know of Minigun 4-0'd him
Can't argue with that sound logic. o_O
I mean, if Minigun 4-0d Fenix before why even play the games at all?
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Woohoo Eg out of their own Cup! Gogo Dignitas!
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On June 24 2011 19:37 SuitGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 06:20 coL.CatZ wrote:
i dont see how xeris playing the 2v2 even makes a difference, drewbie and I are undefeated anyways, and lets pretend Minigun played Fenix in the Ace match, last showmatch I know of Minigun 4-0'd him Can't argue with that sound logic. o_O I mean, if Minigun 4-0d Fenix before why even play the games at all?
I think his point was, people are making it sound like Fnatic had an easy win and threw it away, while in reality, even if Fenix had played instead of Xeris, Minigun has a decent record against him so it wasn't really a throwaway of a won game by Fnatic.
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EPT
