EPT[GSL] Code S Ro16 Day 2 - Page 135
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NO BALANCE WHINING | ||
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nvrs
Greece481 Posts
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
On April 30 2011 19:42 Gigaudas wrote: I wouldn't call it Zerg bias, I'd call it hostility against mechanics that are terrible in an RTS games. Kind of like warp-in+force fields on the ramp, eliminating the defenders advantage and creating an advantage for the attacker. BUt warpgates and forcefield have existed since beta, why is it only now (especially with the MC-July GSL finals) that there's such huge hate towards it? On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: As for why people are getting so upset now rather than in the beta? Protoss players are using them better now. I've always been of the opinion that Protoss has the most 'skill-enabling' abilities, and FF is the king of them. It's a ridiculous ridiculous ability if it's used right, and only now are we seeing people use it right. And when it's used right, Zerg have next to no recourse. So what you're inferring is that protoss players got better? | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments. I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage. Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well. As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably. I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO. As for why people are getting so upset now rather than in the beta? Protoss players are using them better now. I've always been of the opinion that Protoss has the most 'skill-enabling' abilities, and FF is the king of them. It's a ridiculous ridiculous ability if it's used right, and only now are we seeing people use it right. And when it's used right, Zerg have next to no recourse. Tunnelled Roaches certainly help, but they're not exactly a hard counter since most toss have observers (as Anypro did on this occasion). Zergs are constantly faced with new developments hwere the question is 'How the heck do we deal with this?' and the answer is usually 'well this'll be okay but not great'. Whereas we come up with something and it's hard countered in split seconds because everything we can do has a hard counter. We'll see how this Losira build develops, though. Seems ridicu-strong. I think things will start to change once there's signs that Zerg are adapting well and beating the crap out of cheese builds rather than getting absolutely destroyed by them at all levels of play. As it stands, lots of cheeses are failing hard, but ENOUGH are succeeding that it just drives players insane. User was warned for this post | ||
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nvrs
Greece481 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see. As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments. I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage. Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well. As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably. I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO. Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything | ||
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Asshat
593 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:04 loveeholicce wrote: Good to know we're not making wild hyperboles here To a lesser extent this indeed is exactly what happens in every LR thread, unless the non-zerg player is a fan favorite. But that's only natural as zerg players seem to be a majority in boards, so their opinion is more prevalent. Not so much in here as things are regulated to an extent (but still noticeable and easily seen in LR threads), but if you go to sites like reddit starcraft where moderation isn't as strict, it tends to be a circlejerk where anything zerg/idra/day9 takes around 3/4 of the posts in the front page at any given time. | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:32 Asshat wrote: To a lesser extent this indeed is exactly what happens in every LR thread, unless the non-zerg player is a fan favorite. But that's only natural as zerg players seem to be a majority in boards, so their opinion is more prevalent. Not so much in here as things are regulated to an extent (but still noticeable and easily seen in LR threads), but if you go to sites like reddit starcraft where moderation isn't as strict, it tends to be a circlejerk where anything zerg/idra/day9 takes around 3/4 of the posts in the front page at any given time. Its depressing because the QQ of many takes away the valid discussion points of a few reasonable people. Im guilty of QQ as much as anyone but it gets to a point where u just gotta stfu and play. Balance whine is always gonna be here though...I was watching MSL and there was IMBA complaints about every race and we all know the balance in brood war is amazing. *edit: typo | ||
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eloist
United States1017 Posts
Though I think July messed up. Anypro's ball was completely surrounded by force fields and ALL of July's roaches were actually outside where they can't hit. So since no roaches were actually trapped there was actually no reason for him not to wait until the force fields wore off. He would probably have won then since anypro used up all of his forcefields. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
Ridiculous. Nobody ever said ZERG OP or TERRAN OP when they beat Protoss. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 30 2011 21:01 hugman wrote: 1-base 25 probe nexus cancel 4-gate + VR is clearly not all in then I guess if he kills your attack with 1 hydra and 20 drones is the game over? no. so its not all in. even a 6 pool isnt all in if you do enough damage. unless you bring every worker and have all your money spent, and arent terran, its not an all in. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:32 Asshat wrote: To a lesser extent this indeed is exactly what happens in every LR thread, unless the non-zerg player is a fan favorite. But that's only natural as zerg players seem to be a majority in boards, so their opinion is more prevalent. Not so much in here as things are regulated to an extent (but still noticeable and easily seen in LR threads), but if you go to sites like reddit starcraft where moderation isn't as strict, it tends to be a circlejerk where anything zerg/idra/day9 takes around 3/4 of the posts in the front page at any given time. It's not to a lesser extent. It's not even marginally close to how people have reacted. MC 6 gates July, he's a piece of lowly trash that needs to be wiped off the face off the planet No1 called MC out. He did what he had to do to win. If people were angry it was over the strategy not the player. MKP marine scv all ins Nestea, he has no skill and doesnt deserve to breathe the clean air Again MKP did what he had to do to win, no1 was getting angry at him. What we were getting angry at was the strat itself. July 6 pools anyone, hes a godsend and a genius, he understands the game like no other and is a beautiful person. No1 said he was a genius, but heres what people don't understand. When you see a strategy over and over again its not exciting. That's why people yawn when Protoss 4 warpgates and jump out of their seat when Zerg goes 6 pool. More broadly that's why people yawn when a Protoss all ins a Zerg and get excited when a Zerg all ins a Protoss. Warpgate all ins are quite powerful (not saying overpowered, but you can't deny theyre very good) and the excecution is relatively easy, so theyve been so common vs Zerg that whenever we see it its just "not this shit again -_-". Zerg all ins are definitely less common, less effective (I would personally argue but many could disagree), and more situational, so whenever a Zerg all ins its much more fun to watch. Again, just the david-goliath dynamic I guess. It's really not that hard to understand why July would get praise for winning with a 6 pool while a Protoss wouldn't when he wins with a 4 warpgate. | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
It is what it is. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On April 30 2011 23:04 turdburgler wrote: if he kills your attack with 1 hydra and 20 drones is the game over? no. so its not all in. even a 6 pool isnt all in if you do enough damage. unless you bring every worker and have all your money spent, and arent terran, its not an all in. The definition of an all-in is an attack that is extremely difficult to transition into a late game because you'll be so far behind in economy, upgrades and/or tech. All-ins either have to kill the opponent outright, or ensure that whatever lead the opponent gets if he squashes your attack is eliminated (killing lots of drones, destroy a tech building). There's no way of knowing for certain if your attack will fail or succeed though, and that's why it's considered an all-in.. because it's super risky. I would say that the 1st game was definitely an all-in... if July had his defenses up and squashed the attack, he would have been ahead in economy and tech (lair, hydra + 2nd base) and the 3rd game was a somewhat delayed all-in. If July held, he would have been ahead in terms of economy (assuming he didn't lose too many drones) and tech. No way anypro could have transitioned into a late game colossus without taking a risky 3rd. The 2nd game was an all-in (he went all-in with that self manner pylon...lol)... actually I kind of think he was going for the same build as Game 3 before that unfortunate accident. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:18 nvrs wrote: Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'. And you're missing the point. If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates. I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning. Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best. P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this. I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in). | ||
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DontRushMe.Bro
Australia14 Posts
GG wp anypro. Would have liked July to win, but the better player won. Looks like ATM that Nestea and Losira are favourites. Would love to see NaDa win it though  | ||
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
On April 30 2011 23:30 iamthedave wrote: Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'. And you're missing the point. If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates. I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning. Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best. P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this. I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in). There's a difference between legitimate complaints and whining, the majority of the "protoss imba" goes into the "whining" category. And just as the Sotg guys said, the community keeps appealing to Blizz for changes instead of trying to develop something themselves. Protoss used to whine all day about mutas in PvZ and what happened? They developed a timing that hit before mutas. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
That's why I switched from Zerg Now I'm terran it up (badum-tish!) Seriously though, grass is greener guys, come back when PvZ gets fixed. Try other races, pretty fun on the other end. | ||
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:17 stormtemplar wrote: why don't zergs just get a couple of more units when their playing blind? cause they are retarded and all-in econ | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On April 30 2011 23:43 Zeroxk wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 30 2011 23:30 iamthedave wrote: Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'. And you're missing the point. If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates. I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning. Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best. P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this. I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in). There's a difference between legitimate complaints and whining, the majority of the "protoss imba" goes into the "whining" category. And just as the Sotg guys said, the community keeps appealing to Blizz for changes instead of trying to develop something themselves. Protoss used to whine all day about mutas in PvZ and what happened? They developed a timing that hit before mutas. Of course it does, because the majority of players aren't very good. But at lower levels, zergs tend to get absolutely roflstomped because they're hard to play. Look at Idra. The most polarizing guy in the community. Why is he so popular with Zerg? Is it because he's good? Well, he is but that's not the reason. Is it because he's a pro who complains about balance? Basically, yes. Idra's become a hero because he's voicing what SO MANY ZERG PLAYERS ARE FEELING, and most importantly, he's in a position where he can't just be shouted down on a forum, which is what is happening to Zerg pretty much all the time (here included). It's beyond the point where Zerg can even raise a legitimate complaint, because even if they have one it'll be viewed as standard OP whine. Complaining about the whiners doesn't help when that complaining has resulted in it being impossible to have even the beginnings of a discussion about balance issues. Both sides are annoyed with the other, but neither side is going away, that's for sure. | ||
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andrea20
Canada441 Posts
Well... time to watch those VODs... (is an SCV Life fanboy) | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
Everyone uses all-in way too much....how do you all-in econ? | ||
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