July played that badly after he scouted it, sick build by Anypro. Better player won is what it boils down to. July does all-ins all the time, stop being lame blind fanboys. It's a strategy game for a reason, July has shown he is weak against builds like this.
Good day for GSL today, I'm happy about every result, although I certainly wish the killer - clide series was better <_<
On April 30 2011 20:43 mytent wrote: lol... everything's an 'all-in' these days.
(that was sarcasm. as in, stop calling well timed builds 'all ins' when they are obviously not)
1-base 25 probe nexus cancel 4-gate + VR is clearly not all in then I guess
if he kills your attack with 1 hydra and 20 drones is the game over? no. so its not all in.
even a 6 pool isnt all in if you do enough damage. unless you bring every worker and have all your money spent, and arent terran, its not an all in.
By this definition nothing is an all in except suiciding your units and workers and hoping your opponent leaves. That def is useless and no one cares if the term "all-in" isn't exactly accurate. They're using "all-in" in a useful way.
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
There's a difference between legitimate complaints and whining, the majority of the "protoss imba" goes into the "whining" category. And just as the Sotg guys said, the community keeps appealing to Blizz for changes instead of trying to develop something themselves. Protoss used to whine all day about mutas in PvZ and what happened? They developed a timing that hit before mutas.
Of course it does, because the majority of players aren't very good. But at lower levels, zergs tend to get absolutely roflstomped because they're hard to play.
Look at Idra. The most polarizing guy in the community.
Why is he so popular with Zerg? Is it because he's good? Well, he is but that's not the reason. Is it because he's a pro who complains about balance? Basically, yes.
Idra's become a hero because he's voicing what SO MANY ZERG PLAYERS ARE FEELING, and most importantly, he's in a position where he can't just be shouted down on a forum, which is what is happening to Zerg pretty much all the time (here included).
It's beyond the point where Zerg can even raise a legitimate complaint, because even if they have one it'll be viewed as standard OP whine. Complaining about the whiners doesn't help when that complaining has resulted in it being impossible to have even the beginnings of a discussion about balance issues. Both sides are annoyed with the other, but neither side is going away, that's for sure.
at lower levels balance does not matter, play better, seriously, you say its frustrating? well thats starcaft, it never gets any easier, if you cant enjoy the challenge, then stop playing.
It's frustrating as a lower player to try to get advice on Zerg from pros and they dont have the answers either, they're all losing to the same Protoss strats and are complaining about it.
That game 2 with anypro was pretty funny. But his build game three was incredibly well timed. Sad to see July knocked out. Still got nestea to root for though.
They seem to have changed. Before hand polt/sc and losira/alicia were switched with clide/killer and virus/inca. Are these the real brackets now or did they get screwed up? I'm so confused.
Well GOM shows the next round to have TOP/NaDa and sC/Losira so I'm assuming they are on the same side of the bracket.
I accidentally reviewed the different bracket on Liquipedia and just noticed it, but since I couldn't confirm any change by GOM I reverted it to how it was before and what the official site states:
The schedule that two halves of different sides of the bracket are playing on the same day (TOP/NaDa and sC/Losira) has been the same in the previous GSLs (probably because of the group stage: groups A/B plays first, groups G/H last, which carries on into the bracket).
Well, I hope I'm not somehow wrong about it^^
Edit: pdd basically wrote the same thing 3 posts above mine, it just took me waaay too long to click on "Post". And to clear up some possible confusion: The bracket on Liquipedia that SidianTheBard saw and asked about had the winners of TOP/NaDa and sC/Losira face each other in the next round, different from what should now be on Liquipedia.
Haha, nice thanks for clearing this up. Was just so weird for the past week and 1/2 to have it one way, then wake up the next morning and it's changed up! :D
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
There's a difference between legitimate complaints and whining, the majority of the "protoss imba" goes into the "whining" category. And just as the Sotg guys said, the community keeps appealing to Blizz for changes instead of trying to develop something themselves. Protoss used to whine all day about mutas in PvZ and what happened? They developed a timing that hit before mutas.
Hey, do remember that most of the people posting here aren't pro, they don't sit home all day and try to develop a viable/well-adopted tactic, they look up to the pros and learn from theirs. You can definitely argue that 4WG or 6WG are innovative builds developed by P, but I don't think it was developed by any one in this TL thread. As you said, Protoss used to whine all day, and I believe they wouldn't have stopped whining had the pros not developed a viable tactic for them.
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen (10hp/s) is higher than the stakler dps(9,77dmg/s)?
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
Does anypro ever win games when he doesn't do some kind of all-in lol? Just can't wrap my mind around how he's so successful doing shit like that all the time.Sad to see July go, but July could've probably won against both of the all-ins by just playing slightly different.
July is a little overrated on his decision-making. He knew what was coming and he decided to go mass un-upgraded roach when he knew his opponent was upgrading at the forge and had 7 gates. He's lucky AnyPro didn't get Blink or it would have been an absolute slaughter.
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
i'll trade hydras <---->stalkers
who says? If roaches are that good and warpgates so balanced it shouldnt be a problem.
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
i'll trade hydras <---->stalkers
who says? If roaches are that good and warpgates so balanced it shouldnt be a problem.
roaches aren't that good, it is just stalkers are that bad... but yet, a big army of roaches vs a big army of stalkers with blink, the stalkers can end on top, the problem is 2 roaches are far stronger than 1 stalker while the cost of 2 roaches is 150/50 and 1 stalker is 125/50... lol, the tecnology used to be able to hit air is so fucking expensive
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
i'll trade hydras <---->stalkers
who says? If roaches are that good and warpgates so balanced it shouldnt be a problem.
roaches aren't that good, it is just stalkers are that bad... but yet, a big army of roaches vs a big army of stalkers with blink, the stalkers can end on top, the problem is 2 roaches >>>>> 1 stalker but the cost is 150/50 > 125/50
you can't just look at stats like that, it's stupid
stalkers have much bigger range, can kite, have one of the best upgrades in the game (blink) and they're very fast, and once you get them in big enough numbers, any number of roaches won't overcome them because of the range advantage
protoss army is known for being cost effective for a reason, and even though they're more expensive, they're far more effective than 2 roaches
I just realized something, InCa has a huge chance in getting into the ro4 since he gets a PvP vs TSLKiller. But that also means it's setting up for ANOTHER oGs teamkill.
On the other hand, Losira vs Nestea ro4 teamkill as well? Oh wow.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
i'll trade hydras <---->stalkers
who says? If roaches are that good and warpgates so balanced it shouldnt be a problem.
roaches aren't that good, it is just stalkers are that bad... but yet, a big army of roaches vs a big army of stalkers with blink, the stalkers can end on top, the problem is 2 roaches >>>>> 1 stalker but the cost is 150/50 > 125/50
you can't just look at stats like that, it's stupid
stalkers have much bigger range, can kite, have one of the best upgrades in the game (blink) and they're very fast, and once you get them in big enough numbers, any number of roaches won't overcome them because of the range advantage
protoss army is known for being cost effective for a reason, and even though they're more expensive, they're far more effective than 2 roaches
i was just joking arround, of course you can't look that way, but stalkers can't kite roachs, they are slower than hydras on creep, and with upgrades roachs becomes better and better than stalkers, let alone 2 roachs vs 1 stalker, blink micro won't save you...
I find it utterly hilarious how people are complaining about the stalker. Seriously this 125/50 unit has been joked about since the beta. The strat simply worked because he was ahead on upgrades, and caught the zerg off guard when he did not have enough army.
On May 01 2011 05:50 W2 wrote: I find it utterly hilarious how people are complaining about the stalker. Seriously this 125/50 unit has been joked about since the beta. The strat simply worked because he was ahead on upgrades, and caught the zerg off guard when he did not have enough army.
stalkers are my favorite unit in the game, blink is by far the funniest mechanic...
EDIT: 3 probes can kill a turret faster than 1 stalker and the dps of probes against 0 armor light units is 142% the dps of a stalker
On April 30 2011 22:07 iamthedave wrote: I should think it's obvious why zerg players are so damn upset, and anyone who's played the race should be able to see.
As a Zerg, it feels like Protoss (can't think of many or any Zergs who complain about Terran these days) have been given absolutely everything and we've got nothing. They can defend better, attack better, scout better, even expand better if they really want to. And these bronze-platinum and diamond level zergs look to pro games to see how Zerg SHOULD be played, and see no hope at all because the exact stuff they're losing too on ladder is beating the pros in major tournaments.
I think the most sensible post in this whole thread was the one noting how FF and Warp Gates give Protoss both attackers AND defenders advantage while negating defenders' advantage.
Yes the whining is annoying. But don't act like it isn't justified. Protoss on the ladder ARE cheesy MFers, and it IS annoying to lose to that over and over even when you scout it. MC's 99% nexus cancel began a new wave of cheese, and guess what? That's frustrating to lose to as well.
As Zerg, we feel like we've been the bottom of the pile forever, having to claw our way upwards against impossible odds and failing miserably.
I just shrug and get on with it, but I can't help but feel like I should just switch to Protoss and learn a few cheeses. That's really depressing IMO.
Does anyone seriously think that's the state of things? The bias in this is so obvious that i can't even begin to comment. I am a low masters Terran player and frankly Zerg feels to me unstoppable if my initial harass fails, but that experience does not justify any logical inductions about the state of the game in general. If the matchup is really broken, it will be fixed eventually, if this is too much for you then stop playing or stop posting this stuff on LR threads. It's becoming annoying as hell
edit: I too feel that warpgates are evil (regarding the state of the game and balance), but constant whining about them on LR does not offer anything
Yes, lots of Zerg think that's the state of things. I think it was on State of the Game when someone asked what they should do to be a pro player, and the first answer (even in jest) was 'Pick Protoss'.
And you're missing the point.
If people don't complain, why would anything be changed? People complain because they hope something is going to be done. And if you look at the upcoming patch notes, why lookie look, Blizzard are doing something to warp gates.
I'm not saying people are making logical deductions, I'm saying it's understandable why Zerg players are upset and why it's ridiculous to just rule it out as baseless whining. It very clearly isn't baseless. It is being exagerrated, though, as plenty of Zergs are getting into the semis and finals of tourneys if they aren't winning.
Z v T I think is balanced now. Terran have a great early game, Zerg have a great mid game, and late game is about equal if the Terran uses drop tech to its best.
P v everything seems unbalanced to me in various ways. But it seems fundamentally imbalanced that Protoss can just say 'my unit production is in the middle of yours right now' for the cost of 100 minerals, without ever threatening their actual unit production facilities. I'm not QQing or whining, it just seems like a fundamentally broken mechanic in a genre where the distance between unit production and where the fights take place is so critical. It won't change because the game would need to be rebuilt from the ground up, but I hope the other races get something in the upcoming expansions to help offset this.
I don't see any 'give and take' in warp gates. They're just plain better than every comparable structure in the game (due to pylon warp-in).
The warpgate mechanic is awesome, its power has been offset by the weakness of gateway units.
Hmm, what exactly is the weakness of gateway units are you talking about?
maybe the fact that a stalker cost 125/50 and a roach 75/25... did you know that it is impossible to a stalker kill a burrowed roach cuz the roach regen is higher than the stakler dps?
I'll trade roaches for warpgates.
unit <----> upgrade (you can't trade this in theorycraft)
i'll trade hydras <---->stalkers
who says? If roaches are that good and warpgates so balanced it shouldnt be a problem.
He is implying (jokingly) that the roach is a better unit than the stalker. You respond by suggesting the warpgate mechanic as a whole is better than the roach. Well...no shit?
EPT
